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Grounding Rod
Hello,
Can anyone offer me a little advice on the grouding of my SW receivers? I have a couple old Soviet SW radios, a Sony SW77, Sangean ATS909 and a new Degen 1102. I want to make a ground that will work well with any of these receivers. What material is best? Copper, Iron, Steel etc? A rod or plate? What is the best type of cable to use as a lead-in to the receiver? Is there an ideal length? Depending on where the radio will be the lenght could be anything from 5ft to 30ft. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks, Alan |
Have you tried tying a wire to your COLD water line?
-- Gregg *It's probably useful, even if it can't be SPICE'd* http://geek.scorpiorising.ca |
Alan J Giddings wrote:
Hello, Can anyone offer me a little advice on the grouding of my SW receivers? I have a couple old Soviet SW radios, a Sony SW77, Sangean ATS909 and a new Degen 1102. I want to make a ground that will work well with any of these receivers. What material is best? Copper, Iron, Steel etc? A rod or plate? What is the best type of cable to use as a lead-in to the receiver? Is there an ideal length? Depending on where the radio will be the lenght could be anything from 5ft to 30ft. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks, Alan First, you need to understand the difference between a ground for protecting against power surges or lightning and a ground intended for lowering the noise level at the receiver. The first kind is easy to do. You just run a fairly heavy wire (#12) from the receiver chassis to the nearest earth ground, which can be a cold water pipe (if it's all metal plumbing) or a ground rod outside the house. Also use a surge protector for the receiver's power supply. Ground the protector to the same earth ground for the receiver. The second kind of ground is called an RF ground. This helps to reduce noise on the antenna system from sources in your house like televisions, computers and other applicances. This is harder to do well. I suggest you look at the following website for more information on building a low noise antenna system. Good luck. http://www.anarc.org/naswa/badx/ante...e_antenna.html -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
You're most likely to blow out the radio by grounding it. The power
grid produces all sorts of voltages between different grounds, and any difference flows through your radio if you ground it without some theoretical care. Not to mention what happens in a thunderstorm. Your cold water pipes (if metal) are common to the house ground and so least threatening but it's still tempting fate. All the radio needs is a counterpoise to its whip; the wall wart supplies that already, capacitively. If you have a multimeter, measure the AC (not DC) voltage between two ground stakes driven in say twenty feet apart. Usually it's about a half a volt. The earth is alive out there. If you have an outdoor antenna and a coax feed, grounding begins to make sense in noise reduction, to prevent noise from the house from making it into the antenna as much as possible. -- Ron Hardin On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk. |
"Ron Hardin" wrote in message ... You're most likely to blow out the radio by grounding it. Horse****. All the radio needs is a counterpoise to its whip; the wall wart supplies that already, capacitively. There is some truth to this. If you have a multimeter, measure the AC (not DC) voltage between two ground stakes driven in say twenty feet apart. Usually it's about a half a volt. The earth is alive out there. That's why the NEC requires all grounds to be bonded togeter. |
starman wrote in message ...
Alan J Giddings wrote: Hello, Can anyone offer me a little advice on the grouding of my SW receivers? I have a couple old Soviet SW radios, a Sony SW77, Sangean ATS909 and a new Degen 1102. I want to make a ground that will work well with any of these receivers. What material is best? Copper, Iron, Steel etc? A rod or plate? What is the best type of cable to use as a lead-in to the receiver? Is there an ideal length? Depending on where the radio will be the lenght could be anything from 5ft to 30ft. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks, Alan Myself, I hardly think it's worth the trouble with most portables. If you see an improvement, it will probably be in the LW/MW spectrum. On the higher HF bands, there is little help in adding a ground unless you have some kind of wierd antenna issue, or little antenna at all. I bet you will notice little difference in most cases, unless your antenna is small and lame. A ground is not required for quiet radio reception. In fact, ground is a noise source. I use no outside grounding at all to my shack. I have outside grounds, but they are a lightning return. Most of my antennas are complete, and require no rf ground to properly function. The only one I have that does, is a 160m inverted L. It requires an rf ground at the base of the antenna to provide the "lower half". All my others are dipoles, yagi's, etc, that are complete antennas in themselves and require no extra rf ground. This is the preferred route to go if possible. The second kind of ground is called an RF ground. This helps to reduce noise on the antenna system from sources in your house like televisions, computers and other applicances. This is harder to do well. I suggest you look at the following website for more information on building a low noise antenna system. Good luck. Maybe semi-misleading...It's the improved decoupling of the feedline from the antenna that reduces the noise level. "noise ingress" Not the grounding itself, although the grounding helps in the decoupling of the line. Ground is a noise source. An RF ground should be under an antenna to provide it's "lower half" if it requires it. IE: 1/4 wave vertical, etc.. So if you use a balanced antenna that requires no "lower half", IE: 1/2 wave dipole, 1 wave loop, etc, you need no rf ground at all. MK http://www.anarc.org/naswa/badx/ante...e_antenna.html |
Mark Keith wrote:
It's the improved decoupling of the feedline from the antenna that reduces the noise level. "noise ingress" Not the grounding itself, although the grounding helps in the decoupling of the line. I think we're talking semantics here, but how else could you decouple the feedline of an inverted-L antenna other than using an effective (short) earth ground connection? -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Counterpoise.
"starman" wrote in message ... I think we're talking semantics here, but how else could you decouple the feedline of an inverted-L antenna other than using an effective (short) earth ground connection? |
AJG,
Grounds & Grounding = Five Topics for your Consideration FIRST - Check Your A/C Power Outlets with an A/C Outlet Analyzer like the RadioShack # 22-141. This simple devise WARNS you of Faulty Wiring in 3-Prong 110-125 VAC Outlets in your Household. Detects and Indicates: * Normal Wiring * Bad Ground * Open Neutral * Reversed Hot/Neutral * Reversed Hot/Ground * Open Hot Plus the newest version: Tests for Correct Operation of Ground Fault Circuit Isolators. NOTE: Remove this Analyzer from the packaging very carefully SAVE: The Backing Card with the Printed Test Instructions (These Instructions are Valuable) IMHO: EVERY HOME OWNER SHOULD HAVE ONE OF THESE ! WHY: An external outside Earth Ground Rod with Ground Wire System for your Radio Reception Equipment and and Antennas is Actually a HAZARD if your Household Wiring is Bad. TBL: SO CHECK YOUR HOUSEHOLD A/C ELECTRICAL OUTLETS FIRST [.] NOTE: Often a Bad A/C Electrical Outlet is the Source of RFI. SECOND - Making USE Of A GROUND When NO Other Ground Is Available. WHY: Often this is necessary because there is not other ground available; the Radio is being run on Batteries; a Wall Wart is being used and the output is isolated/insulated from the A/C Ground. This simply provides a basic External Ground Directly to the Radio at a place designated on the Radio like a Ground Terminal or SO-239 Jack. WHAT: Buy a standard Heavy Duty (Appliance Type) Black Rubber "Three Prong Plug" for use as the Ground Interface with your Household Wiring and to create the 'external' Grounding Point. CAUTION: Only connect the ROUND Ground (Green) Prong to a 16-18 AWG Stranded Green Colored Insulated Wire of 5-10 Feet Length with a Slotted Terminal or Alligator Chip at the other end. (Simply Do Not Use the two blade prongs.) Why use a Green Colored Wire because "Green" represents Household Electrical Wiring Ground. CONNECTION: Connect the Slotted Terminal or Alligator Clip to the Ground Connection of the Radio like the Ground Terminal or SO-239 Jack. THIRD - Ground your Antenna(s) at the Antenna to Feed-in-Line Junction (outside and the building) For Noise (RFI) Reduction use Coax Cable as a Feed-in-Line from the Antenna to the Radio and Equipment. This outside Ground Point becomes the "Primary" Ground for your Antenna System. FOURTH - For Your Personal Safety and to Protect your Radio Equipment: * Disconnect the Antenna when the Radio is not in use and during Electrical (T&L) Storms. * Buy a SO-239 Connector and wire the center pin to the outer threaded fastener. (Shorted) Connect this to your Shack's Equipement Ground BUS if you bave one. * When the Coax Cable is Disconnected from the Radio: Connect the Coax Cable to the SO-239 Shorting Plug. * When Disconnected, Keep the Coax Cable at least 18" away from the Radio. Your Shack's Equipement Ground BUS should be at least 12"-18" away from all your equipment. * Additionally during Electrical (T&L) Storms Un-Plug (Disconnect) the Radios and Equipment from the A/C Wall Outlet(s). FIFTH - HOW TO: Install the Ground ROD into the Ground: (Eazy installation of Ground RODs) * Dig a One to Two Foot Deep Hole 6"-9" Wide. * Fill the Hole with Water and wait till it soaks into hole. (If really dry, fill with more water and wait. Repeat this process if necessary and waiting over a day and/or night is OK.) * Now begin the Implantation of the ROD into the Ground. * * First try simply Pushing the ROD into Ground for a few feet. * * Use home made ROD Driver (A Two Feet piece of 1" Iron Pipe with a Nipple on one end.) Slide it over the Top of the ROD and use it to Tap the ROD into the Ground for a few more feet. * * Finally use a Sledge Hammer or Heavy Object to Pound the ROD into the Ground still using the Rod Driver over the ROD until the Top of the ROD is level with the surounding Ground. (Remove the ROD Driver and clean-up the surface of the ROD.) * Attach the Ground Wires using a Heavy Duty Ground Wire Clamp designed specifically to make this type of connection. * Fill the Hole with a "50 / 50 Mixture" of original Soil (50%) and the other (50%) made up of these parts of 1/2 "Bentonite" (clay kitty litter); 1/3 Epson Salt; and 1/6 Copper Sulfate works well 'in-the-ground' around ground rod. Water this down and 'tamp-it-down' lightly over the next few days. SIXTH - Your specific questions are answered in the body of your message. iane ~ RHF .. .. = = = (Alan J Giddings) = = = wrote in message . com...\ RMR RMR RMR RMR RMR RMR RMR RMR RMR RMR RMR RMR RMR RMR Hello, Can anyone offer me a little advice on the grounding of my SW receivers? I have a couple old Soviet SW radios, a Sony SW77, Sangean ATS-909 and a new Degen 1102. I want to make a ground that will work well with any of these receivers. Q - What material is best? Copper, Iron, Steel etc? A rod or plate? =R= The most commonly used "Earthen Grounding Devise" is a Eight Foot (8 Ft.) Copper Clad Steel Ground Rod. Read "HOW TO: Install the Ground ROD into the Ground:" above. Q - What is the best type of cable to use as a lead-in to the receiver? =R= The most common type of connector from the Ground Rod to the Radios and Equipment is Heavy Duty #8-#10 AWG Copper Wire this can be Solid Bare Copper Wire or Seven Stranded Insulated Copper Wire. Q - Is there an ideal length? =R= The Shortest and most direct route as possible. Depending on where the radio will be the lenght could be anything from 5 Ft to 30 Ft. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks, Alan .. I Am Glad You Asked ~ RHF .. |
"RHF" wrote in message om. ... FIRST - Check Your A/C Power Outlets with an A/C Outlet Analyzer like the RadioShack # 22-141. This simple devise WARNS you of Faulty Wiring in 3-Prong 110-125 VAC Outlets in your Household. Out of curiosity I just checked RS and they do still stock these ($5.95) but about a year ago I purchased 4 of them on a close out for .99 ea.. Yes, they are handy . I already had one but could never find it when I needed it, don't have that problem now that I have 5. Ya never know at the big red R, several months ago I purchased a 7.5 watt amplified mobile speaker for just a few bucks on a close out (should have bought more). They now have same speaker (same model number, same store) back on the shelf for $27.95. RM~ |
Now understand that the device does not detect and does not
claim to detect earth ground. That obvious is one understands what that $6 Radio Shack tester does. There is no simple device to verify integrity of earth ground. And that Radio Shack tester will only report a failed safety ground - not to be confused with earth ground. That Radio Shack tester will not report a good safety ground. It can only report a failed safety ground. It, or a 3.5 digit multimeter, will detect some safety ground problems. This discussion is about earthing. Any wire that is 1/4 wavelength or longer is an antenna - not an earthing wire. For 60 Hz AC electric, a long wire to earth may be an earth ground. But this discussion is about radio frequencies and noise. That distance to earth ground must be shorter. It is just another reason why the incoming wire first makes a less than 10 foot connection, either via surge protector or hardwired, to the building's single point earth ground. As was noted in earlier posts, using multiple (separate) grounds can create problems both for humans and transistors. Problems that the three light tester will never detect. That three light tester is only a preliminary check. But there really is no substitution for visual inspection. Rob Mills wrote: "RHF" wrote in message om. .. FIRST - Check Your A/C Power Outlets with an A/C Outlet Analyzer like the RadioShack # 22-141. This simple devise WARNS you of Faulty Wiring in 3-Prong 110-125 VAC Outlets in your Household. Out of curiosity I just checked RS and they do still stock these ($5.95) but about a year ago I purchased 4 of them on a close out for .99 ea.. Yes, they are handy . I already had one but could never find it when I needed it, don't have that problem now that I have 5. ... |
The electric idiot strikes again.
"w_tom" wrote in message ... (bunches of useless horse****) |
How would you build a counterpoise for an inverted-L?
CW wrote: Counterpoise. "starman" wrote in message ... I think we're talking semantics here, but how else could you decouple the feedline of an inverted-L antenna other than using an effective (short) earth ground connection? -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Same way you would for a verticle. Radials.
"starman" wrote in message ... How would you build a counterpoise for an inverted-L? CW wrote: Counterpoise. "starman" wrote in message ... I think we're talking semantics here, but how else could you decouple the feedline of an inverted-L antenna other than using an effective (short) earth ground connection? -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
starman wrote in message ...
Mark Keith wrote: It's the improved decoupling of the feedline from the antenna that reduces the noise level. "noise ingress" Not the grounding itself, although the grounding helps in the decoupling of the line. I think we're talking semantics here, but how else could you decouple the feedline of an inverted-L antenna other than using an effective (short) earth ground connection? As one mentioned, radials. Or you could use a choke,beads, etc. Lets say you had a 1/4 wave ground plane that was elevated with a set of radials. The radials will decouple the feedline pretty well. There is no need to ground the radials, or the supporting mast, except as a lightning concern. A choke will decouple the line fairly well. Noise ingress has nothing to do with being grounded or not. It's an issue of decoupling the feedline from the antenna. Using a ground connection under an "L" will decouple it fairly well, but it's just one method that can be used, and the "ground" is not a required element. It's not just semantics, because an "rf ground" is not a requirement of good decoupling. But saying that, I usually do ground the low end of inv L's. MK |
= = = "CW"
= = = wrote in message ... The electric idiot strikes again. "w_tom" wrote in message ... (bunches of useless horse****) CW, Shauuu ... You'l wake him up again. Time to Check and Adjust my 'Inverted "CK" Antenna' ( AHaaa... Now I Am Safe :o) Near Field Mode: "Tune-In-the-Truth" (What Ever It May Be) - - - A-n-D - - - Far Field Mode: "Tune-Out-the-Absurd" (I Don't Know What You Call It... But I Know It - When I Hear It !) So Say I ~ RHF The Inventor of the 'Inverted "CK" Antenna' .. .. |
Mark Keith wrote:
starman wrote in message ... Mark Keith wrote: It's the improved decoupling of the feedline from the antenna that reduces the noise level. "noise ingress" Not the grounding itself, although the grounding helps in the decoupling of the line. I think we're talking semantics here, but how else could you decouple the feedline of an inverted-L antenna other than using an effective (short) earth ground connection? As one mentioned, radials. Or you could use a choke,beads, etc. Lets say you had a 1/4 wave ground plane that was elevated with a set of radials. The radials will decouple the feedline pretty well. There is no need to ground the radials, or the supporting mast, except as a lightning concern. A choke will decouple the line fairly well. Noise ingress has nothing to do with being grounded or not. It's an issue of decoupling the feedline from the antenna. Using a ground connection under an "L" will decouple it fairly well, but it's just one method that can be used, and the "ground" is not a required element. It's not just semantics, because an "rf ground" is not a requirement of good decoupling. But saying that, I usually do ground the low end of inv L's. MK I agree that the feedline of an elevated ground plane can be effectively decoupled using radials but it's not clear to me how you would use radials with the typical inverted-L. Where would you locate the radials in that case? -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
STARMAN,
At the Base Feed Point of the Inverted "L" Antenna two Radials opposite each other set at 90 Degrees to the Horizontal Arm as viewed from the Top. The Radials should be as long as the Vertical Leg of the Inverted "L" Antenna. * Inverted "L' Antenna Reading List http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SWL-AM...na/message/374 * Inverted "L" Antenna for Transmitting by Dr. Ace http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SWL-AM...na/message/309 Typically: Quarter (1/4) Wave Length Long and 1/8th WL High * Inverted "L" Antenna as an 'available space' SWL Antenna http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SWL-AM...nna/message/54 Typically: For a SWL Receive ONLY Antenna of any Random Length With the Horizontal Arm 'twice' (2X) as long as the Vertical Leg. iane ~ RHF .. .. = = = starman = = = wrote in message ... Mark Keith wrote: starman wrote in message ... Mark Keith wrote: It's the improved decoupling of the feedline from the antenna that reduces the noise level. "noise ingress" Not the grounding itself, although the grounding helps in the decoupling of the line. I think we're talking semantics here, but how else could you decouple the feedline of an inverted-L antenna other than using an effective (short) earth ground connection? As one mentioned, radials. Or you could use a choke,beads, etc. Lets say you had a 1/4 wave ground plane that was elevated with a set of radials. The radials will decouple the feedline pretty well. There is no need to ground the radials, or the supporting mast, except as a lightning concern. A choke will decouple the line fairly well. Noise ingress has nothing to do with being grounded or not. It's an issue of decoupling the feedline from the antenna. Using a ground connection under an "L" will decouple it fairly well, but it's just one method that can be used, and the "ground" is not a required element. It's not just semantics, because an "rf ground" is not a requirement of good decoupling. But saying that, I usually do ground the low end of inv L's. MK I agree that the feedline of an elevated ground plane can be effectively decoupled using radials but it's not clear to me how you would use radials with the typical inverted-L. Where would you locate the radials in that case? |
starman wrote in message ...
I agree that the feedline of an elevated ground plane can be effectively decoupled using radials but it's not clear to me how you would use radials with the typical inverted-L. Where would you locate the radials in that case? On the ground. And in that case, I almost always do ground the radials to earth at the feedpoint. Radials on the ground are detuned, and are not required to be cut to any certain length. So they are not really resonant at any given freq like elevated radials, or if they are, it's likely not where you would expect. They normally need to be resonant to decouple the feedline, so it's best to also ground them if they are on the ground and detuned. If you had an elevated GP with 1/4 wave radials for a certain freq, they will not work at say twice that freq. "1/2 waves" They would show a high impedance, and the radial system would not function properly, and the decoupling would be poor. But 3/4 wave radials can work ok, as they show a low Z. The best ground planes, verticals , etc use twin decoupling sections. IE: a 1/4 wave ground plane with a set of 1/4 wave radials, would have a second set of 1/4 wave radials, 1/4 wave below the main set. Or if a sleeve vertical, two sets of cones, tubes, etc. You can also use chokes, ferrite beads as extra decoupling with any coax system. I'm not against grounding in some cases. I just wanted to clarify that it's really the improved decoupling, rather than the addition of ground per say, that reduces the noise ingress. Grounding is just one method used to improve decoupling of the line in some cases. Usually with radials on the ground, or when using no radials at all. If the antenna is already balanced and properly decoupled, adding an "rf ground" will not do a thing as far as noise ingress. Might even make things worse being ground is usually a noise source. MK |
Mark Keith wrote:
starman wrote in message ... I agree that the feedline of an elevated ground plane can be effectively decoupled using radials but it's not clear to me how you would use radials with the typical inverted-L. Where would you locate the radials in that case? On the ground. And in that case, I almost always do ground the radials to earth at the feedpoint. Radials on the ground are detuned, and are not required to be cut to any certain length. So they are not really resonant at any given freq like elevated radials, or if they are, it's likely not where you would expect. They normally need to be resonant to decouple the feedline, so it's best to also ground them if they are on the ground and detuned. If you had an elevated GP with 1/4 wave radials for a certain freq, they will not work at say twice that freq. "1/2 waves" They would show a high impedance, and the radial system would not function properly, and the decoupling would be poor. But 3/4 wave radials can work ok, as they show a low Z. The best ground planes, verticals , etc use twin decoupling sections. IE: a 1/4 wave ground plane with a set of 1/4 wave radials, would have a second set of 1/4 wave radials, 1/4 wave below the main set. Or if a sleeve vertical, two sets of cones, tubes, etc. You can also use chokes, ferrite beads as extra decoupling with any coax system. I'm not against grounding in some cases. I just wanted to clarify that it's really the improved decoupling, rather than the addition of ground per say, that reduces the noise ingress. Grounding is just one method used to improve decoupling of the line in some cases. Usually with radials on the ground, or when using no radials at all. If the antenna is already balanced and properly decoupled, adding an "rf ground" will not do a thing as far as noise ingress. Might even make things worse being ground is usually a noise source. MK Why would someone build such a radial system for an inverted-L when the 'Doty-L' achieves the same or better results with a simple earth ground? -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
From a pure efficiency standpoint, a simple ground rod is pretty poor. In a
receiving application, you are not likely to notice but try transmitting with an inverted L. The ground system is much more important and the radial system is far superior. "starman" wrote in message ... Why would someone build such a radial system for an inverted-L when the 'Doty-L' achieves the same or better results with a simple earth ground? -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
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