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Winradio WR-G303i & Ten Tec RX-320D
Has anyone done a side by side comparison of the Winradio WR-G303i and the
Ten Tec RX-320D? |
Monitoring Times in the August 2003 issue compared the two. The
reviewer liked them both but kept the G303i On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 16:41:00 -0500, "Pat Butler" 1234 wrote: Has anyone done a side by side comparison of the Winradio WR-G303i and the Ten Tec RX-320D? |
On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 16:41:00 -0500, "Pat Butler" 1234 wrote:
Has anyone done a side by side comparison of the Winradio WR-G303i and the Ten Tec RX-320D? I have them both, and there is absolutely no comparison: The G303i is like a precision scientific instrument. Even the S-meter is accurately calibrated in dBm and uV. The real-time spectrum scope is such an eye-opener (literally) that it makes you wonder how you ever got around wihout it. Same applies to the variable IF bandwidth. Then open up both boxes (as your insatiable technical curiosity yet again prevails over practical warranty concerns), and what do you see? With the TenTec, you see old-style through-hole components with manually adjustable coils on a sparsely populated single-sided board which looks like a transistor radio from early sixties. Open the Winradio, and marvel at the beautiful subminiature components surface-mounted on both sides of several densely-packed multilayer boards, meticulous craftsmanship, and not a single adjustable component in sight. Then look at the control software and see similar differences in craftsmanship and professionalism. But granted, looks can deceive - put the receivers side by side, and what do you hear? Signals entirely burried in noise on TenTec, loud and clear (and beautifully visible on the real-time spectrum scope) on Winradio. Don't take my word for it, try it. George |
George:
I very much enjoyed your posting. But what sort of equipment do you use when running WinRadio, I'm talking PC and antenna setup here? Tom Welch |
"George Blomfield" wrote in message news:4009e0e0.2462200@news-server... Open the Winradio, and marvel at the beautiful subminiature components surface-mounted on both sides of several densely-packed multilayer boards, meticulous craftsmanship, and not a single adjustable component in sight. Yes, most disposables are made that way. |
"CW" wrote in message ... Yes, most disposables are made that way. Ouch! ; ) |
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 17:34:41 -0800, "CW"
wrote: "George Blomfield" wrote in message news:4009e0e0.2462200@news-server... Open the Winradio, and marvel at the beautiful subminiature components surface-mounted on both sides of several densely-packed multilayer boards, meticulous craftsmanship, and not a single adjustable component in sight. Yes, most disposables are made that way. Very astute observation. :-) The Winradio has never been professionally reviewed. The IP3 sucks... as do the rest of the published specs. Way way overpriced. Problem is that no one makes a decent affordable SW receiver. It isn't rocket science and this is 2004 isn't it? duh |
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:14:36 GMT, wrote:
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 17:34:41 -0800, "CW" wrote: "George Blomfield" wrote in message news:4009e0e0.2462200@news-server... Open the Winradio, and marvel at the beautiful subminiature components surface-mounted on both sides of several densely-packed multilayer boards, meticulous craftsmanship, and not a single adjustable component in sight. Yes, most disposables are made that way. Very astute observation. :-) A rather uninformed observation, considering the state-of-the-art of radio engineering in the year 2004, and a world of difference between the levels of craftsmanship applied to these two products which is obvious to anyone who actually bothers to look at the products before making such observations... :-) The Winradio has never been professionally reviewed. The IP3 sucks... as do the rest of the published specs. Way way overpriced. Not sure what you mean by "never professionally reviewed". Read the current (2004) issue of WRTH. Is this professional enough? And the other numerous reviews including one in Short Wave Magazine (also available on http://www.winradio.com/home/g303i-reviews.htm)? Problem is that no one makes a decent affordable SW receiver. It isn't rocket science and this is 2004 isn't it? I'd suggest that you look at Winradio G303i first, and *then* talk about rocket science in 2004... ;-) Nothing comes close. Try it for yourself, you'll see... :-) George |
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:17:53 GMT, (George Blomfield)
wrote: The Winradio has never been professionally reviewed. The IP3 sucks... as do the rest of the published specs. Way way overpriced. Not sure what you mean by "never professionally reviewed". Read the current (2004) issue of WRTH. Is this professional enough? And the other numerous reviews including one in Short Wave Magazine (also available on http://www.winradio.com/home/g303i-reviews.htm)? Problem is that no one makes a decent affordable SW receiver. It isn't rocket science and this is 2004 isn't it? I'd suggest that you look at Winradio G303i first, and *then* talk about rocket science in 2004... ;-) Nothing comes close. Try it for yourself, you'll see... :-) George I would love to see a ARRL tech review of the WR-G303i. A review of the 1150i wasn't impressive. I read the reviews on the Winradio wesbite- not impressed. Where have we heard "the am synch loses lock" before? :-) Cheers! |
"George Blomfield" wrote in message news:400d059a.6116314@news-server... On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:14:36 GMT, wrote: On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 17:34:41 -0800, "CW" wrote: "George Blomfield" wrote in message news:4009e0e0.2462200@news-server... Open the Winradio, and marvel at the beautiful subminiature components surface-mounted on both sides of several densely-packed multilayer boards, meticulous craftsmanship, and not a single adjustable component in sight. Yes, most disposables are made that way. Very astute observation. :-) Anyone with any electronics experience would know that components have tolerances. The variation between components will mean that a non adjustable tuned circuit may very well not be tuned as well as it could be. Making things non adjustable is cheaper but the trade off is that you have to except less than optimum performance. |
CW schrieb: Anyone with any electronics experience would know that components have tolerances. The variation between components will mean that a non adjustable tuned circuit may very well not be tuned as well as it could be. Making things non adjustable is cheaper but the trade off is that you have to except less than optimum performance. Who says that this thing ist not adjustable? I have a PCR1000 wich is a nice toy to play with. This thing has not a single adjustment screw inside. It is all done by programming switches with external software via RS232 interface. All you need ist just the right high frequency signal injector device for different signal levels signal forms and modulation. Also an oscilloscope to check the audio output waveform and level. odo |
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 09:30:25 -0800, "CW"
wrote: "George Blomfield" wrote in message news:400d059a.6116314@news-server... On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:14:36 GMT, wrote: On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 17:34:41 -0800, "CW" wrote: "George Blomfield" wrote in message news:4009e0e0.2462200@news-server... Open the Winradio, and marvel at the beautiful subminiature components surface-mounted on both sides of several densely-packed multilayer boards, meticulous craftsmanship, and not a single adjustable component in sight. Yes, most disposables are made that way. Very astute observation. :-) Anyone with any electronics experience would know that components have tolerances. The variation between components will mean that a non adjustable tuned circuit may very well not be tuned as well as it could be. Making things non adjustable is cheaper but the trade off is that you have to except less than optimum performance. I guess you have not heard of software-defined radios. This has been a buzzword in military and other professional radio communications for a few years. The G303i is the first such software-defined radio for the consumer market. The end result (apart from other significant benefits) is precisely what you are talking about: elimination of influence of component tolerances. Don't think for a second that they simply replaced a tunable coil with an untunable one in a similar circuit; of course this would not work. This receiver has a totally different architecture, where tunable IF transformers are simply not used anymore. And the result? 1. The lowest phase noise and the best MDS in any consumer shortwave radio available; and still with a very respectable dynamic range. 2. Precisely calibrated S-meter (now how would this be possible if they had component tolerances problem?) .... and there is more, but I am running out of time right now, check the Web site: http://www.winradio.com/home/g303i.htm George |
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:34:00 GMT, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:17:53 GMT, (George Blomfield) wrote: The Winradio has never been professionally reviewed. The IP3 sucks... as do the rest of the published specs. Way way overpriced. Not sure what you mean by "never professionally reviewed". Read the current (2004) issue of WRTH. Is this professional enough? And the other numerous reviews including one in Short Wave Magazine (also available on http://www.winradio.com/home/g303i-reviews.htm)? Problem is that no one makes a decent affordable SW receiver. It isn't rocket science and this is 2004 isn't it? I'd suggest that you look at Winradio G303i first, and *then* talk about rocket science in 2004... ;-) Nothing comes close. Try it for yourself, you'll see... :-) George I would love to see a ARRL tech review of the WR-G303i. A review of the 1150i wasn't impressive. I read the reviews on the Winradio wesbite- not impressed. Where have we heard "the am synch loses lock" before? :-) You picked up the only potentially negative point amongst a myriad of overwhelmingly positive ones. Well please yourself. But if you owned a G303 as I do, you would know that the AM demodulator is so good, that there is no need for a synchronous one anyway. I even wonder why Winradio bothered. You are better off simply using LSB or USB if one of the side bands or the carrier are damaged. LSB and USB are always tuned spot-on with the G303, so when you are tuned to an AM station, switching to LSB or USB does not produce any of the familiar beat frequency or distortion you would normally expect to hear on other radios. You simply hear only the selected sideband with perfect and equivalent audio quality. Now tell me with which of your receivers you can do that (without the need to adjust the tuning or the BFO, and without a perceptible difference in audio when you toggle between LSB and USB). And with which of your receivers you can also adjust the LSB or USB filter bandwiths, continuously from 1 Hz to 15 kHz? And with which of your receivers you can actually *see* the signal on a calibrated real-time spectrum analyzer (with the filter bandwidth shown superimposed) to see what is going on on the band? But I guess you are still not impressed. Well, I surely am... ;-) George |
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George Blomfield schrieb: .... The G303i is the first such software-defined radio for the consumer market. ....the ICOM IC-PCR1000 is on the market for several years now... odo |
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 03:05:03 GMT, wrote:
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:53:29 GMT, (George Blomfield) wrote: Where have we heard "the am synch loses lock" before? :-) You picked up the only potentially negative point amongst a myriad of overwhelmingly positive ones. Well please yourself. But if you owned a G303 as I do, you would know that the AM demodulator is so good, that there is no need for a synchronous one anyway. I even wonder why Winradio bothered. You are better off simply using LSB or USB if one of the side bands or the carrier are damaged. I hear a bunch of Icom R75 owners out there chuckling. Why? Problems with Icom R75, as serious as they may be, are totally irrelevant to this discussion. LSB and USB are always tuned spot-on with the G303, so when you are tuned to an AM station, switching to LSB or USB does not produce any of the familiar beat frequency or distortion you would normally expect to hear on other radios. You simply hear only the selected sideband with perfect and equivalent audio quality. Now tell me with which of your receivers you can do that (without the need to adjust the tuning or the BFO, and without a perceptible difference in audio when you toggle between LSB and USB). Caught this on the Yahoo Winradio group- -------- WinRadio has just posted a new version of the G303i operating software. You can now do a frequency calibration for the radio by tweaking the reference frequency parameter in the wrg3.ini file. I successfully used this parameter to eliminate the small frequency error (5 Hz at 10 Mhz) of my G303i. --------------------- OH,,, gee... it's called "calibration". :-) Ohmigod, are you kidding? This guy's radio was out *five* Hz at 10 MHz on a $500 receiver, and you think this is bad? This is 0.5 ppm you are sneereing at, for Chrissake! Show me another $500 receiver with that sort of frequency error. Plus, being able to so easily calibrate it to an even better accuracy. This is surely a powerful advertisement *for* Winradio, not against it. You don't often get 0.5 ppm with a receiver costing ten times that much... The key though is this- no way would I ever want a receiver stuck inside the noisiest possible environment- a computer! If it works (and it does), then I surely would. Besides, this is an old, tired argument. Read the review in Short Wave Magazine: "Setting a new standard of cleanliness in receivers". (Note that this also includes conventional radios which are not used inside a computer.) I can surely attest to that: Not a single birdie down to the -138dBm (or so) noise floor, throughout the entire frequency range 9kHz to 30MHz, and sensitivity better than any receiver I have ever worked with in my 30 year long professional and amateur career. Despite as you say, the receiver is stuck inside the "noisiest possible environment". How they manage to do this, frankly I don't know, but they do. And with which of your receivers you can also adjust the LSB or USB filter bandwiths, continuously from 1 Hz to 15 kHz? Who would want a 15khz filter for SSB? Who would *not* want continuously adjustable IF bandwidth from 1 Hz to 15 kHz in 1 Hz steps for all modulation modes? You don't have to go over 3 kHz for SSB of course.... ;-) But I guess you are still not impressed. Well, I surely am... ;-) George I dunno George, you sound like a Winradio dealer. :-) To me you sound like a desperate TenTec dealer trying to knock down competition at all costs... ;-) I own the product, so perhaps I do sound rather passionate about it. But not without good reasons. I would certainly agree with any reality-founded objective criticism, but I have not seen any of it here. Of course there are negative points, and I can surely think of a few, but even if I take those into consideration, this product simply shines. It may be be some of their more expensive external receivers that go to 4ghz might have some merit but I'd have to see the real specs and a real review (and those versions cost a bloody fortune.) Usually, if a receiver is that "hot" we'd have seen real reviews And indeed we have: There are real reviews in WRTH and Short Wave Magazine and more. John Wilson of SWM is about as professional and authoritative reviewer as you can possibly get. And so is WRTH. and everyone would hear how wonderful it is. It is wonderful. Can you hear me now? ;-) I repeat- no one makes a decent affordable receiver that could be considered state of the art. Except Winradio... ;-) Not even the TT RX-340 at almost 4 grand. (Never could understand why the RX-340 costs more than their Orion- with 2 rcvrs and a xmtr and much more in one box!) Their RX-350 is an "image" dog. Never tried the RX-320 and doubt I ever will. I keep looking though.... Start he http://www.winradio.com/home/g303i.htm ;-) George |
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:15:41 +0100, Volker Tonn
wrote: George Blomfield schrieb: ... The G303i is the first such software-defined radio for the consumer market. ...the ICOM IC-PCR1000 is on the market for several years now... odo True, and the Winradio WR-1000 even earlier, but these are both conventional architecture (although PC-controlled) radios. Proper software-defined radio is such where the entire last IF and demodulator stage are executed in software (i.e. the signal is sampled at the last IF frequency). George |
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George Blomfield schrieb: On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:15:41 +0100, Volker Tonn wrote: George Blomfield schrieb: ... The G303i is the first such software-defined radio for the consumer market. ...the ICOM IC-PCR1000 is on the market for several years now... odo True, and the Winradio WR-1000 even earlier, but these are both conventional architecture (although PC-controlled) radios. I don't know the WR-100 from inside. But _all_ alignment of the PCR1000 is done by software. Proper software-defined radio is such where the entire last IF and demodulator stage are executed in software (i.e. the signal is sampled at the last IF frequency). Do you really mean a DSP as or in the final IF-stage makes the difference for a software defined radio? All other things is electronic switchings controlled by software. odo |
"Volker Tonn" wrote in message ... George Blomfield schrieb: On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 09:15:41 +0100, Volker Tonn wrote: George Blomfield schrieb: ... The G303i is the first such software-defined radio for the consumer market. ...the ICOM IC-PCR1000 is on the market for several years now... odo True, and the Winradio WR-1000 even earlier, but these are both conventional architecture (although PC-controlled) radios. I don't know the WR-100 from inside. But _all_ alignment of the PCR1000 is done by software. Proper software-defined radio is such where the entire last IF and demodulator stage are executed in software (i.e. the signal is sampled at the last IF frequency). Do you really mean a DSP as or in the final IF-stage makes the difference for a software defined radio? All other things is electronic switchings controlled by software. odo In the extreme case of a software defined radio, the antenna would connect to a fast A/D converter and the result is processed digitally. From a practical sense that isn't done. It can be done with a mixer and a vfo to convert to a 12 kHz IF and then fed directly to a sound card in a PC. The rest of the signal processing is done digitally in the PC. The WINRADIO has a little bit more done in electronics as it is a dual conversion system. Once the signal is at the second IF (12 kHz) then everything else is done in the PC. The final IF filtering and all demodulation is done in the PC. On the other hand, the R1000 represents a conventional radio that has had the controlling processor and front panel moved to the PC. None of the signal processing is done in the PC. This is an example of a PC controlled radio vs. a software defined radio. craigm |
wrote in message . ..
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 23:53:29 GMT, (George Blomfield) wrote: Caught this on the Yahoo Winradio group- -------- WinRadio has just posted a new version of the G303i operating software. You can now do a frequency calibration for the radio by tweaking the reference frequency parameter in the wrg3.ini file. I successfully used this parameter to eliminate the small frequency error (5 Hz at 10 Mhz) of my G303i. --------------------- OH,,, gee... it's called "calibration". :-) 5Hz error at 10MHz is a wonderful calibration. Quite incredible for a cheap radio. So how does Winradio do it, is there an OCXO? Tom |
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:05:33 GMT, wrote:
On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:23:56 GMT, (George Blomfield) wrote: I repeat- no one makes a decent affordable receiver that could be considered state of the art. Except Winradio... ;-) OK George, tell you what- send me one and if it's everything you claim its cracked up to be... no spurs, clean as a whistle sitting inside my computer, no overload using a normal antenna, super duper beats anything in sight- and I'll buy it. :-) Wow, if I were a dealer I would have now made a sale! :-) But as I am not, sorry: Can't supply. Are there any Winradio dealers out there reading this? (I trust you will share your commission with me! ;-)) George |
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