Quoth "Mark S. Holden" in :


I realize it's a delicate problem, but really, the people who changed
the laws in the name of patients rights did them a disservice.

A lot of those who changed the laws ostensibly in the name of patient's
rights were really doing it to cut the cost to state governments of providing
services to the mentally ill.

It's cheaper to let them die on the streets.

--
"I am afeard there are few die well that die in a battle; for how can they
charitably dispose of anything when blood is their argument? Now, if these
men do not die well, it will be a black matter for the King that led them
to it; who to disobey were against all proportion of subjection." - W.S.

Tom Betz wrote:
Quoth "Mark S. Holden" in :


I realize it's a delicate problem, but really, the people who changed
the laws in the name of patients rights did them a disservice.


A lot of those who changed the laws ostensibly in the name of patient's
rights were really doing it to cut the cost to state governments of providing
services to the mentally ill.

It's cheaper to let them die on the streets.


You may be right. I've heard of stories where the ambulance staff will
check the wallet/purse of the collapsed person to make sure they have
money/coverage before picking them up. It's disgusting.




mike

"Tom Betz" wrote in message
. 70...
Quoth "Mark S. Holden" in
:


I realize it's a delicate problem, but really, the people who
changed
the laws in the name of patients rights did them a disservice.

A lot of those who changed the laws ostensibly in the name of
patient's
rights were really doing it to cut the cost to state governments of
providing
services to the mentally ill.

It's cheaper to let them die on the streets.


Aside from the overly cynical last sentence, I don't have any reason
to believe that this isn't correct in part. But the bottom line is
that the significant initiative that put these people on the streets
came from so-called "advocates" for the individuals themselves--true
believers who considered it more "just" that they be freed from
institutional confines. Yet another burden from the bad ideas of the
well-intentioned.

"Mark S. Holden" wrote in message ...
m II wrote:

Mark S. Holden wrote:

David wrote:

Most of them are Vietnam vets that Reagan put out on the street.



Actually, a huge percentage of them are people who used to be (or should be) in mental health facilities.

The problem is in the name of compassion, laws were passed to give people who really aren't capable of making rational decisions the right to sign themselves out and live on the street.

There are exceptions - especially if there are clear signs the person is a danger to themselves or the community, but apparently living on the street is looked at as a lifestyle choice.


There seems to be a problem here with the way the police treat
schizophrenics on the street. A lot of education is in order.
Many of those homeless are ill and wind up getting jailed or shot.

http://members.fortunecity.com/bruta...ada/names.html
================================================== =====

This study claims that between 30 to 35 percent of homeless are mentally
ill.

http://www.schizophrenia.ca/call2act.pdf
================================================== =====

mike

I realize it's a delicate problem, but really, the people who
changed the laws in the name of patients rights did them a disservice.

The stigma of mental illness is certainly a problem, and some of
that can be handled with education, but if the mind is playing
tricks on someone, they can become a danger to others, and the
police may need to take action.

MSH,

In the 1970's the Courts {Activist Judges} determined that once
a Patient has Received Treatment and has their Medical Problem
'under control'. That the Patient was in-fact "Medically Well"
{Healthy} and 'had to be released' and Return to Society (the Streets).
What the Courts could not Mandate {Require} was that the Patient
'keep taking' their Medications once the Patient was in Society
(on the Streets) again. The Cycle repeats itself and usually
spirals down over time and someone dies.

~ RHF

..

= = = m II wrote in message
= = = news:%RRmc.14820$F04.6706@clgrps13...
Mark S. Holden wrote:

David wrote:

Most of them are Vietnam vets that Reagan put out on the street.



Actually, a huge percentage of them are people who used to be (or should be) in mental health facilities.

The problem is in the name of compassion, laws were passed to give people who really aren't capable of making rational decisions the right to sign themselves out and live on the street.

There are exceptions - especially if there are clear signs the person is a danger to themselves or the community, but apparently living on the street is looked at as a lifestyle choice.


There seems to be a problem here with the way the police treat
schizophrenics on the street. A lot of education is in order.
Many of those homeless are ill and wind up getting jailed or shot.

http://members.fortunecity.com/bruta...ada/names.html
================================================== =====

This study claims that between 30 to 35 percent of homeless are mentally
ill.

http://www.schizophrenia.ca/call2act.pdf
================================================== =====

mike

MII,

When they look at Males over the Age of 25 Years.

Then considering two Factors:

* Mental Illness

* Substance Abuse

The Percentage is in the Range of 75% to 80% for one or both of
these as being the 'primary causes' of the Individuals Disabilities
that "Result" in their Homelessness.

The sad fact (truth) is that for about 1/4 to 1/3 of these Homeless
Persons; that Long Term Care (Institutionalization) is their best
hope of a marginally normal and stable life.

~ RHF

..

Prove it.

On 8 May 2004 00:43:10 -0700, (RHF) wrote:

"Mark S. Holden" wrote in message ...
m II wrote:

Mark S. Holden wrote:

David wrote:

Most of them are Vietnam vets that Reagan put out on the street.



Actually, a huge percentage of them are people who used to be (or should be) in mental health facilities.

The problem is in the name of compassion, laws were passed to give people who really aren't capable of making rational decisions the right to sign themselves out and live on the street.

There are exceptions - especially if there are clear signs the person is a danger to themselves or the community, but apparently living on the street is looked at as a lifestyle choice.


There seems to be a problem here with the way the police treat
schizophrenics on the street. A lot of education is in order.
Many of those homeless are ill and wind up getting jailed or shot.

http://members.fortunecity.com/bruta...ada/names.html
================================================== =====

This study claims that between 30 to 35 percent of homeless are mentally
ill.

http://www.schizophrenia.ca/call2act.pdf
================================================== =====

mike

I realize it's a delicate problem, but really, the people who
changed the laws in the name of patients rights did them a disservice.

The stigma of mental illness is certainly a problem, and some of
that can be handled with education, but if the mind is playing
tricks on someone, they can become a danger to others, and the
police may need to take action.

MSH,

In the 1970's the Courts {Activist Judges} determined that once
a Patient has Received Treatment and has their Medical Problem
'under control'. That the Patient was in-fact "Medically Well"
{Healthy} and 'had to be released' and Return to Society (the Streets).
What the Courts could not Mandate {Require} was that the Patient
'keep taking' their Medications once the Patient was in Society
(on the Streets) again. The Cycle repeats itself and usually
spirals down over time and someone dies.

~ RHF

.

= = = David wrote in message
= = = . ..

Prove it.


DR,

I have nothing to prove - But You may have Somethng to Learn.

The Proof is a matter of Public Record.

Do Your Own Research {Look It Up For Yourself}

~ RHF
..
..

On 8 May 2004 00:43:10 -0700, (RHF) wrote:

"Mark S. Holden" wrote in message ...
m II wrote:

Mark S. Holden wrote:

David wrote:

Most of them are Vietnam vets that Reagan put out on the street.



Actually, a huge percentage of them are people who used to be (or should be) in mental health facilities.

The problem is in the name of compassion, laws were passed to give people who really aren't capable of making rational decisions the right to sign themselves out and live on the street.

There are exceptions - especially if there are clear signs the person is a danger to themselves or the community, but apparently living on the street is looked at as a lifestyle choice.


There seems to be a problem here with the way the police treat
schizophrenics on the street. A lot of education is in order.
Many of those homeless are ill and wind up getting jailed or shot.

http://members.fortunecity.com/bruta...ada/names.html
================================================== =====

This study claims that between 30 to 35 percent of homeless are mentally
ill.

http://www.schizophrenia.ca/call2act.pdf
================================================== =====

mike

I realize it's a delicate problem, but really, the people who
changed the laws in the name of patients rights did them a disservice.

The stigma of mental illness is certainly a problem, and some of
that can be handled with education, but if the mind is playing
tricks on someone, they can become a danger to others, and the
police may need to take action.

MSH,

In the 1970's the Courts {Activist Judges} determined that once
a Patient has Received Treatment and has their Medical Problem
'under control'. That the Patient was in-fact "Medically Well"
{Healthy} and 'had to be released' and Return to Society (the Streets).
What the Courts could not Mandate {Require} was that the Patient
'keep taking' their Medications once the Patient was in Society
(on the Streets) again. The Cycle repeats itself and usually
spirals down over time and someone dies.

~ RHF

.

That's what I thought.

On 8 May 2004 10:25:51 -0700, (RHF) wrote:

= = = David wrote in message
= = = . ..

Prove it.


DR,

I have nothing to prove - But You may have Somethng to Learn.

The Proof is a matter of Public Record.

Do Your Own Research {Look It Up For Yourself}

~ RHF
.
.

On 8 May 2004 00:43:10 -0700, (RHF) wrote:

"Mark S. Holden" wrote in message ...
m II wrote:

Mark S. Holden wrote:

David wrote:

Most of them are Vietnam vets that Reagan put out on the street.



Actually, a huge percentage of them are people who used to be (or should be) in mental health facilities.

The problem is in the name of compassion, laws were passed to give people who really aren't capable of making rational decisions the right to sign themselves out and live on the street.

There are exceptions - especially if there are clear signs the person is a danger to themselves or the community, but apparently living on the street is looked at as a lifestyle choice.


There seems to be a problem here with the way the police treat
schizophrenics on the street. A lot of education is in order.
Many of those homeless are ill and wind up getting jailed or shot.

http://members.fortunecity.com/bruta...ada/names.html
================================================== =====

This study claims that between 30 to 35 percent of homeless are mentally
ill.

http://www.schizophrenia.ca/call2act.pdf
================================================== =====

mike

I realize it's a delicate problem, but really, the people who
changed the laws in the name of patients rights did them a disservice.

The stigma of mental illness is certainly a problem, and some of
that can be handled with education, but if the mind is playing
tricks on someone, they can become a danger to others, and the
police may need to take action.

MSH,

In the 1970's the Courts {Activist Judges} determined that once
a Patient has Received Treatment and has their Medical Problem
'under control'. That the Patient was in-fact "Medically Well"
{Healthy} and 'had to be released' and Return to Society (the Streets).
What the Courts could not Mandate {Require} was that the Patient
'keep taking' their Medications once the Patient was in Society
(on the Streets) again. The Cycle repeats itself and usually
spirals down over time and someone dies.

~ RHF

.

RHF wrote:

The Percentage is in the Range of 75% to 80% for one or both of
these as being the 'primary causes' of the Individuals Disabilities
that "Result" in their Homelessness.

The sad fact (truth) is that for about 1/4 to 1/3 of these Homeless
Persons; that Long Term Care (Institutionalization) is their best
hope of a marginally normal and stable life.

That may well be true, however it would appear too many of these people
are winding up in jails with no treatment at all. It becomes a cycle of
'catch and release'. The potential for abuse exists too. When the sole
arbiters of detention/freedom have NO connection to the courts, you
build up a parallel sytem of judgment and detention.

In some totalitarian systems, this fact was abused to the clear
advantage of the power structure.



mike

= = = m II wrote in message
= = = news:MQunc.29285$LA4.6890@edtnps84...
RHF wrote:

The Percentage is in the Range of 75% to 80% for one or both of
these as being the 'primary causes' of the Individuals Disabilities
that "Result" in their Homelessness.

The sad fact (truth) is that for about 1/4 to 1/3 of these Homeless
Persons; that Long Term Care (Institutionalization) is their best
hope of a marginally normal and stable life.

That may well be true, however it would appear too many of these people
are winding up in jails with no treatment at all.

MII,

Due to the simple fact that in most instances they have committed a Crime.

Against a Person - Attacked some one and injured or killed them.

Against Property - Broke a Window - Started a Fire. - ETC.

The 'first priority' of the Police is the "Protection of Society".
[ The "Safety and Wellbeing" of Innocent Citizens. ]

The 'second priority' of the Police is the Removal and Incarceration
of the Offending Criminal.
[ So that they can NO Longer HARM others or themselves. ]

The 'third priority' of the Police is to assure that the Criminal
has proper Representation or Treatment.

NOTE: If the Criminal needs immediate medical attention such as;
Not Breathing or Bleeding to Death; then the Police will take them
for Medical Treatment as needed.
..
..
It becomes a cycle of 'catch and release'.

YES- It Does - But that is what the Courts have Mandated.
[ Doctors should be making these Medical Judgements NOT Judges. ]
..
..
The potential for abuse exists too.

YES - It Does. {Most Systems Do - Without 'proper' Oversight and Controls.}
..
..
When the sole arbiters of detention/freedom have NO connection
to the courts, you build up a parallel sytem of judgment and detention.

NO - The 'sole arbiters' are the Police and they are "Responsible"
to the Courts; Medical Professionals, and our Elected Officials.
[ The "System" allows for a reasonable degree of 'proper'
Oversight and Controls. ]
..
..
In some totalitarian systems, this fact was abused
to the clear advantage of the power structure.

YES - That is True. That is why I believe in the old System
of State run Mental Hospitals and Institutions.
These facilities provided Housed and Cared for what we now
call "Homeless Persons" and others. They served Society and
our "Common Humanity" Better; then our current system of
'catch-and-release' to use your words.

They were 'better' for the Individuals.

They were 'better' for the Families and Friends.

They were 'better' for our Society.

They were more Wholesome and Humane for all concerned and
produced a 'better' Living Environment for all.
..
..
mike

wmcis ~ RHF

..