Diego Garcia 13254
 

Diego Garcia is active again here this morning on 13254.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

http://www.iserv.net/~n8kdv/dxpage.htm

dxAce wrote:

Diego Garcia is active again here this morning on 13254.

Transmissions have a 'watery' sound to them, as they have the past few days
indicating a possible trans-polar path.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

http://www.iserv.net/~n8kdv/dxpage.htm

dxAce wrote:
Diego Garcia is active again here this morning on 13254.

Transmissions have a 'watery' sound to them, as they have the past few days
indicating a possible trans-polar path.

Does the cold make the radio waves shiver?

--
So those 380 tons of missing explosives were moved by Saddam before all
those expert inspectors noticed, eh?

No wonder twelve years of inspections found NOTHING.

dxAce wrote in message ...
dxAce wrote:

Diego Garcia is active again here this morning on 13254.

Transmissions have a 'watery' sound to them, as they have the past few days
indicating a possible trans-polar path.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

http://www.iserv.net/~n8kdv/dxpage.htm

Interesting - I will try to listen for them this weekend (no luck so
far...)

An observation and a question:

When a station is not antipodal to the listener (such as, say, Voice
of Nigeria or Radio New Zealand and my receiver in California), it
appears that there are only two ways a signal could reach the receiver
- either short path or long path via the Great Circle route, which
would be a straight line plotted across the Earth's surface, not
counting the Great Circle itself or the necesary skip. A signal
headed out in any other compass directions from the station in
straight lines would ultimately not arrive at the receiver, but at
some other point on Earth. (This is not the same as saying that a
station beaming its signal in some other ddirection will not reach my
receiver - we all frequently hear broadcasts intended for other
audiences, because antenna systems aren't perfect, thank goodness.)

This is why, when I listen to All India Radio or the Seychelles or
something out thataway that is *not* antipodal, it usually sounds
watery - it has no other route to my receiver except over the pole(s).

The only way a signal emanating from a station in any direction could
always reach a receiver is if the transmitter is antipodal to the
receiver - that is, directly on the opposite side of the earth. From
this, and without the immediate benefit of a globe or map, I assume
that for DxAce, Diego Garcia is nearly antipodal to his receiver; thus
his implication that signals from that site could possibly reach his
receiver via more than one path aside from a polar route.

*The Question*: Am I wrong? Is it possible, or even common, for a
transmitted signal to travel to a receiver via some route other than a
Great Circle route? Is it possible for skip to veer around corners?
People talk about and use Gray Line conditions to their advantage, but
even *that* is a straight line / Great Circle pathway when one
exmaines what is happening - are there others that weave along warped
ways?

Thanks -
Bruce Jensen

Do a Google search for skewed propagation

--
The Anon Keyboard
I doubt, therefore I might be



"bpnjensen" wrote in message
om...
An observation and a question:

When a station is not antipodal to the listener (such as, say, Voice
of Nigeria or Radio New Zealand and my receiver in California), it
appears that there are only two ways a signal could reach the receiver
- either short path or long path via the Great Circle route, which
would be a straight line plotted across the Earth's surface, not
counting the Great Circle itself or the necesary skip. A signal
headed out in any other compass directions from the station in
straight lines would ultimately not arrive at the receiver, but at
some other point on Earth. (This is not the same as saying that a
station beaming its signal in some other ddirection will not reach my
receiver - we all frequently hear broadcasts intended for other
audiences, because antenna systems aren't perfect, thank goodness.)

This is why, when I listen to All India Radio or the Seychelles or
something out thataway that is *not* antipodal, it usually sounds
watery - it has no other route to my receiver except over the pole(s).

The only way a signal emanating from a station in any direction could
always reach a receiver is if the transmitter is antipodal to the
receiver - that is, directly on the opposite side of the earth. From
this, and without the immediate benefit of a globe or map, I assume
that for DxAce, Diego Garcia is nearly antipodal to his receiver; thus
his implication that signals from that site could possibly reach his
receiver via more than one path aside from a polar route.

*The Question*: Am I wrong? Is it possible, or even common, for a
transmitted signal to travel to a receiver via some route other than a
Great Circle route? Is it possible for skip to veer around corners?
People talk about and use Gray Line conditions to their advantage, but
even *that* is a straight line / Great Circle pathway when one
exmaines what is happening - are there others that weave along warped
ways?

Thanks -
Bruce Jensen

bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
dxAce wrote:

Diego Garcia is active again here this morning on 13254.

Transmissions have a 'watery' sound to them, as they have the past few days
indicating a possible trans-polar path.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

http://www.iserv.net/~n8kdv/dxpage.htm

Interesting - I will try to listen for them this weekend (no luck so
far...)

An observation and a question:

When a station is not antipodal to the listener (such as, say, Voice
of Nigeria or Radio New Zealand and my receiver in California), it
appears that there are only two ways a signal could reach the receiver
- either short path or long path via the Great Circle route, which
would be a straight line plotted across the Earth's surface, not
counting the Great Circle itself or the necesary skip. A signal
headed out in any other compass directions from the station in
straight lines would ultimately not arrive at the receiver, but at
some other point on Earth. (This is not the same as saying that a
station beaming its signal in some other ddirection will not reach my
receiver - we all frequently hear broadcasts intended for other
audiences, because antenna systems aren't perfect, thank goodness.)

This is why, when I listen to All India Radio or the Seychelles or
something out thataway that is *not* antipodal, it usually sounds
watery - it has no other route to my receiver except over the pole(s).

The only way a signal emanating from a station in any direction could
always reach a receiver is if the transmitter is antipodal to the
receiver - that is, directly on the opposite side of the earth. From
this, and without the immediate benefit of a globe or map, I assume
that for DxAce, Diego Garcia is nearly antipodal to his receiver; thus
his implication that signals from that site could possibly reach his
receiver via more than one path aside from a polar route.

*The Question*: Am I wrong? Is it possible, or even common, for a
transmitted signal to travel to a receiver via some route other than a
Great Circle route? Is it possible for skip to veer around corners?
People talk about and use Gray Line conditions to their advantage, but
even *that* is a straight line / Great Circle pathway when one
exmaines what is happening - are there others that weave along warped
ways?

No, the grey line is not always necessarily a straight line path, but can be a
'crooked path', and that is 'veering around corners' as you say.

Hearing Diego this morning several times after 1425.

dxAce
Mihigan
USA

http://www.iserv.net/~n8kdv/dxpage.htm

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

snips

No, the grey line is not always necessarily a straight line path, but can be a
'crooked path', and that is 'veering around corners' as you say.

Hmmm - can you explain this?

Geometrically, with the sun's rays essentially parallel to one another
shining on the disc of the earth, the grayline would always represent
a virtually perfect circumference, no matter which exact face the
earth presents to the sun - hence, while a flat map of the world shows
an undulating wave, the grayline is actually a 'straight' line along
the earth's face. The only deviation from this that I can determine
would be the astronomical width of the sun, about 0.5 degree, and
whatever 'ionic' width either side of that partial illumination at
sunrise/sunset would be involved in improved propagation.

I can imagine that something about the earth's magnetic field could
vary this, especilly *at* the poles - is this why some 'crookedness'
can occur?

Thanks,
Bruce Jensen

"Keyboard In The Wilderness" wrote in message news:08tgd.82205$hj.10086@fed1read07...
Do a Google search for skewed propagation

Thank you - I'll do just that.

BTW, excellent reception this past weekend mornings of low-power
Indonesian stations here in California.

Bruce Jensen

bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

snips

No, the grey line is not always necessarily a straight line path, but can be a
'crooked path', and that is 'veering around corners' as you say.

Hmmm - can you explain this?

Geometrically, with the sun's rays essentially parallel to one another
shining on the disc of the earth, the grayline would always represent
a virtually perfect circumference, no matter which exact face the
earth presents to the sun - hence, while a flat map of the world shows
an undulating wave, the grayline is actually a 'straight' line along
the earth's face. The only deviation from this that I can determine
would be the astronomical width of the sun, about 0.5 degree, and
whatever 'ionic' width either side of that partial illumination at
sunrise/sunset would be involved in improved propagation.

I can imagine that something about the earth's magnetic field could
vary this, especilly *at* the poles - is this why some 'crookedness'
can occur?

It's very easy to see, just look at a grey line map.

It's a well known propagation phenomenon.

At least amongst the cognoscenti.

And, has nothing to do with the magnetic field.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

bpnjensen wrote:

(bpnjensen) wrote in message . com...

*The Question*: Am I wrong? Is it possible, or even common, for a
transmitted signal to travel to a receiver via some route other than a
Great Circle route? Is it possible for skip to veer around corners?
People talk about and use Gray Line conditions to their advantage, but
even *that* is a straight line / Great Circle pathway when one
exmaines what is happening - are there others that weave along warped
ways?

Thanks -
Bruce Jensen

As suggested or implied by both of the other posters here -

I looked up issues related to this on the internet, starting with a
Google search for skewed propagation.

After looking over some fascinating information, I think that the
answer to this question is, YES, 'skewing' of signals does occur due
to varying degrees of geomagnetic activity near the poles and,
especially, the locations and degrees of its gradient. At points of
high gradient, and usually well away from the most absorptive regions
where radio signal fear to tread, radio waves can actually take rather
sharp corners from standard great circle (GC) routes, and go from one
GC to another. These are most easily noted by amateur radio
operaters, who can keep careful track of the bearings of their antenna
arrays and the bearings fo their contacts. A careful and
well-informed SWL could do as much, although as most of probably use
nondirectional wires, or wires of unknown direction, it is probably
far less likely.

And, NO, grayline propagation *alone* does not follow warped or skewed
routes, following the clearly-defined GC grayline - but like any other
propagation, can be susceptible to skewing by the geomagnetic
gradient.

Yes, it does, you are very much wrong. It's incredibly easy to see, just by looking at a grey line map.

But heck, believe what you wanna believe!

I remain, and always will be,

dxAce
Michigan
USA

bpnjensen wrote:

(bpnjensen) wrote in message . com...

*The Question*: Am I wrong? Is it possible, or even common, for a
transmitted signal to travel to a receiver via some route other than a
Great Circle route? Is it possible for skip to veer around corners?
People talk about and use Gray Line conditions to their advantage, but
even *that* is a straight line / Great Circle pathway when one
exmaines what is happening - are there others that weave along warped
ways?

Thanks -
Bruce Jensen

As suggested or implied by both of the other posters here -

I looked up issues related to this on the internet, starting with a
Google search for skewed propagation.

After looking over some fascinating information, I think that the
answer to this question is, YES, 'skewing' of signals does occur due
to varying degrees of geomagnetic activity near the poles and,
especially, the locations and degrees of its gradient. At points of
high gradient, and usually well away from the most absorptive regions
where radio signal fear to tread, radio waves can actually take rather
sharp corners from standard great circle (GC) routes, and go from one
GC to another. These are most easily noted by amateur radio
operaters, who can keep careful track of the bearings of their antenna
arrays and the bearings fo their contacts. A careful and
well-informed SWL could do as much, although as most of probably use
nondirectional wires, or wires of unknown direction, it is probably
far less likely.

Regardless of how some SWL's antennas are aligned, the physics of wave propagation dictate how the signal will
arrive, not the antenna position. But... if one has an antenna, or antennas to position properly, they will be
able to take greater advantage of the direction the signal is coming from, thereby getting better reception.

Now go ponder that grey line map again.

I know you'll get it yet! It's actually very simple.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

snips

No, the grey line is not always necessarily a straight line path, but can be a
'crooked path', and that is 'veering around corners' as you say.

Hmmm - can you explain this?

Geometrically, with the sun's rays essentially parallel to one another
shining on the disc of the earth, the grayline would always represent
a virtually perfect circumference, no matter which exact face the
earth presents to the sun - hence, while a flat map of the world shows
an undulating wave, the grayline is actually a 'straight' line along
the earth's face. The only deviation from this that I can determine
would be the astronomical width of the sun, about 0.5 degree, and
whatever 'ionic' width either side of that partial illumination at
sunrise/sunset would be involved in improved propagation.

I can imagine that something about the earth's magnetic field could
vary this, especilly *at* the poles - is this why some 'crookedness'
can occur?

It's very easy to see, just look at a grey line map.

It's a well known propagation phenomenon.

At least amongst the cognoscenti.

And, has nothing to do with the magnetic field.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

A "map" is not an accurate representation of the globe's surface - if
it is not on a spherical surface, then every single object plotted on
a map has some degree of distortion. The lovely sine-wave shaped
grayline you see on a typical flat map is a distortion of its true
shape, just as the map itself is a distortion of the earth's surface.

In reality, a grayline is a virtually perfect circle in a single plane
slicing through the center of the planet, corresponding to the
terminator of the sun's rays as they reach the earth. Even the
grayline websites admit this.

It is fairly easy to visualize. Put a ball (the earth) up in front of
you, with a bright small light (the sun) situated about 15 feet away.
Look at the side of the ball - the gray area at the horizon traces a
neat planar circle around the perimeter of the ball. Same with ol'
sol and terra, except on a bigger scale.

That, from a cognoscentus of simple geometry and astronomy.

Bruce Jensen

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

(bpnjensen) wrote in message . com...

*The Question*: Am I wrong? Is it possible, or even common, for a
transmitted signal to travel to a receiver via some route other than a
Great Circle route? Is it possible for skip to veer around corners?
People talk about and use Gray Line conditions to their advantage, but
even *that* is a straight line / Great Circle pathway when one
exmaines what is happening - are there others that weave along warped
ways?

Thanks -
Bruce Jensen

As suggested or implied by both of the other posters here -

I looked up issues related to this on the internet, starting with a
Google search for skewed propagation.

After looking over some fascinating information, I think that the
answer to this question is, YES, 'skewing' of signals does occur due
to varying degrees of geomagnetic activity near the poles and,
especially, the locations and degrees of its gradient. At points of
high gradient, and usually well away from the most absorptive regions
where radio signal fear to tread, radio waves can actually take rather
sharp corners from standard great circle (GC) routes, and go from one
GC to another. These are most easily noted by amateur radio
operaters, who can keep careful track of the bearings of their antenna
arrays and the bearings fo their contacts. A careful and
well-informed SWL could do as much, although as most of probably use
nondirectional wires, or wires of unknown direction, it is probably
far less likely.

And, NO, grayline propagation *alone* does not follow warped or skewed
routes, following the clearly-defined GC grayline - but like any other
propagation, can be susceptible to skewing by the geomagnetic
gradient.

Yes, it does, you are very much wrong. It's incredibly easy to see, just by looking at a grey line map.

But heck, believe what you wanna believe!

I remain, and always will be,

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Again, you are relying on a "flat" map that cannot possibly give an
accurate representation of a "spherical" earth. Plotted on a
spherical globe, an accurate model of the planet, the grayline is
unmistakably circular around the globe, and traces a straight line
across the earth's surface through the antipode.

That goofy Mercator's-projection map you've been looking at all these
years has got you flummoxed. You need to read up on maps and what
they do the shape of things plotted on them.

Believing in things that can be proven and demonstrated scientifically
- everything else is theory,

Bruce Jensen,
semi-pro meteorologist,
amateur astronomer,
amateur geographer

bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

snips

No, the grey line is not always necessarily a straight line path, but can be a
'crooked path', and that is 'veering around corners' as you say.

Hmmm - can you explain this?

Geometrically, with the sun's rays essentially parallel to one another
shining on the disc of the earth, the grayline would always represent
a virtually perfect circumference, no matter which exact face the
earth presents to the sun - hence, while a flat map of the world shows
an undulating wave, the grayline is actually a 'straight' line along
the earth's face. The only deviation from this that I can determine
would be the astronomical width of the sun, about 0.5 degree, and
whatever 'ionic' width either side of that partial illumination at
sunrise/sunset would be involved in improved propagation.

I can imagine that something about the earth's magnetic field could
vary this, especilly *at* the poles - is this why some 'crookedness'
can occur?

It's very easy to see, just look at a grey line map.

It's a well known propagation phenomenon.

At least amongst the cognoscenti.

And, has nothing to do with the magnetic field.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

A "map" is not an accurate representation of the globe's surface - if
it is not on a spherical surface, then every single object plotted on
a map has some degree of distortion. The lovely sine-wave shaped
grayline you see on a typical flat map is a distortion of its true
shape, just as the map itself is a distortion of the earth's surface.

In reality, a grayline is a virtually perfect circle in a single plane
slicing through the center of the planet, corresponding to the
terminator of the sun's rays as they reach the earth. Even the
grayline websites admit this.

It is fairly easy to visualize. Put a ball (the earth) up in front of
you, with a bright small light (the sun) situated about 15 feet away.
Look at the side of the ball - the gray area at the horizon traces a
neat planar circle around the perimeter of the ball. Same with ol'
sol and terra, except on a bigger scale.

That, from a cognoscentus of simple geometry and astronomy.

I'm truly sorry that you don't understand the concept, and cannot understand it. A case of
trying to over engineer the obvious?

Boggling.

But, I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it!

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Another skewed path propagation to ponder.

Six meter operators report: Often it is possible to contact stations well
off the great circle path between two stations
by means of back and side scatter from a sporadic-E cloud.

--
The Anon Keyboard
I doubt, therefore I might be

bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

(bpnjensen) wrote in message . com...

*The Question*: Am I wrong? Is it possible, or even common, for a
transmitted signal to travel to a receiver via some route other than a
Great Circle route? Is it possible for skip to veer around corners?
People talk about and use Gray Line conditions to their advantage, but
even *that* is a straight line / Great Circle pathway when one
exmaines what is happening - are there others that weave along warped
ways?

Thanks -
Bruce Jensen

As suggested or implied by both of the other posters here -

I looked up issues related to this on the internet, starting with a
Google search for skewed propagation.

After looking over some fascinating information, I think that the
answer to this question is, YES, 'skewing' of signals does occur due
to varying degrees of geomagnetic activity near the poles and,
especially, the locations and degrees of its gradient. At points of
high gradient, and usually well away from the most absorptive regions
where radio signal fear to tread, radio waves can actually take rather
sharp corners from standard great circle (GC) routes, and go from one
GC to another. These are most easily noted by amateur radio
operaters, who can keep careful track of the bearings of their antenna
arrays and the bearings fo their contacts. A careful and
well-informed SWL could do as much, although as most of probably use
nondirectional wires, or wires of unknown direction, it is probably
far less likely.

And, NO, grayline propagation *alone* does not follow warped or skewed
routes, following the clearly-defined GC grayline - but like any other
propagation, can be susceptible to skewing by the geomagnetic
gradient.

Yes, it does, you are very much wrong. It's incredibly easy to see, just by looking at a grey line map.

But heck, believe what you wanna believe!

I remain, and always will be,

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Again, you are relying on a "flat" map that cannot possibly give an
accurate representation of a "spherical" earth. Plotted on a
spherical globe, an accurate model of the planet, the grayline is
unmistakably circular around the globe, and traces a straight line
across the earth's surface through the antipode.

That goofy Mercator's-projection map you've been looking at all these
years has got you flummoxed. You need to read up on maps and what
they do the shape of things plotted on them.

Believing in things that can be proven and demonstrated scientifically
- everything else is theory,

Who the hell said I'm relying on a flat map...?

It's clear to me that you don't understand grey line propagation, or the terminology that goes along with it.

Someday perhaps you'll understand what the term 'crooked path' means.

It's just a term! Get a frickin clue Jensen!

You get back to me when you figure it out!

Boggling.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

(bpnjensen) wrote in message . com...

*The Question*: Am I wrong? Is it possible, or even common, for a
transmitted signal to travel to a receiver via some route other than a
Great Circle route? Is it possible for skip to veer around corners?
People talk about and use Gray Line conditions to their advantage, but
even *that* is a straight line / Great Circle pathway when one
exmaines what is happening - are there others that weave along warped
ways?

Thanks -
Bruce Jensen

As suggested or implied by both of the other posters here -

I looked up issues related to this on the internet, starting with a
Google search for skewed propagation.

After looking over some fascinating information, I think that the
answer to this question is, YES, 'skewing' of signals does occur due
to varying degrees of geomagnetic activity near the poles and,
especially, the locations and degrees of its gradient. At points of
high gradient, and usually well away from the most absorptive regions
where radio signal fear to tread, radio waves can actually take rather
sharp corners from standard great circle (GC) routes, and go from one
GC to another. These are most easily noted by amateur radio
operaters, who can keep careful track of the bearings of their antenna
arrays and the bearings fo their contacts. A careful and
well-informed SWL could do as much, although as most of probably use
nondirectional wires, or wires of unknown direction, it is probably
far less likely.

And, NO, grayline propagation *alone* does not follow warped or skewed
routes, following the clearly-defined GC grayline - but like any other
propagation, can be susceptible to skewing by the geomagnetic
gradient.

Yes, it does, you are very much wrong. It's incredibly easy to see, just by looking at a grey line map.

But heck, believe what you wanna believe!

I remain, and always will be,

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Again, you are relying on a "flat" map that cannot possibly give an
accurate representation of a "spherical" earth. Plotted on a
spherical globe, an accurate model of the planet, the grayline is
unmistakably circular around the globe, and traces a straight line
across the earth's surface through the antipode.

That goofy Mercator's-projection map you've been looking at all these
years has got you flummoxed. You need to read up on maps and what
they do the shape of things plotted on them.

Believing in things that can be proven and demonstrated scientifically
- everything else is theory,

I think you may also be confusing a great circle path, (short path) and it's reciprocal, (long path) propagation
with the separate phenomenon of grey line propagation, which can, and does follow other paths.

All you need is an azimuthal map, and an overlay of the grey line to understand what is going on, and then the
term 'crooked path' will become clear... and jump right up to smack you in the face.

It's pretty damn simple, even for a semi-pro whatever...

I'm gonna try and work with you here!

dxAce
Michigan
USA

dxAce wrote in message ...

Regardless of how some SWL's antennas are aligned, the physics of wave propagation dictate how the signal will
arrive, not the antenna position. But... if one has an antenna, or antennas to position properly, they will be
able to take greater advantage of the direction the signal is coming from, thereby getting better reception.

Now go ponder that grey line map again.

I know you'll get it yet! It's actually very simple.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Here are some websites that not only describe some things about
grayline propagation, but also clearly show it's true shape and why a
flat map will portray a grayline differently than its true shape
(which is, in actual fact, a great circle with an approximately
85-minute-wide width along the sunrise/sunset terminator).

http://www.iri.tudelft.nl/~geurink/grayline.htm
http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/propagation_gray_line.htm
http://www.cpcug.org/user/wfeidt/Misc/n4kgprop.html

There are numerous websites also that but discuss how, through
geomagnetic-solar-induced electron gradients, radio propagation may be
diverted from its normal great-circle path onto *another* and
different great circle pathway - and how, if one is lucky, one of
those great circle paths may a grayline terminator that will deliver a
wondrous DX signal to your ears.

Some other websites even go on to say that, unless you are
running/listening to CW or high-powered SSB, these diversions are not
always likely to yield good results, because much is still lost when
the RRF shifts pathways.

Radio waves, like light waves (which they really are), do not just
bounce around as they like depending upon random events and
conditions. They travel in straight lines, and are affected (under
earthbound conditions) only by reflective and refractive factors -
ionospheric skip keeps them near the earth, and geomagnetic electronic
gradients can veer them. Absent the latter, within a very narrow
bound, those signals will assume a great circle pathway -

Which brings us to the tentative conclusion that DxAce's most common
and likely reception pathway for Diego Garcia is a great circle route,
and a trace of that route is going to give you, for practical
purposes, a pathway that closely approaches the north or south
geomagnetic pole. If it sounds watery one day and not so watery the
next, it is because the interaction between the solar flux and the
earth's geomagnetic field varies from day to day - providing, perhaps,
modest skewing or rippling of the signal.

Based on examining a number of pretty well-documented websites, and on
what I know from astronomy and geophysics, I have few doubts about
this description, which is admittedly general as it is.

I would suggest that anyone who is unfamilar with maps and
projections, and the distortions they introduce into plots of
spherically-coordinated surfaces and lines, should look at some
websites on maps. It is fascinating how maps and their various
projections can be used to show specific points, while at the same
time totally distorting others.

Try Google searches for "map projection(s)" and for "skewed" or
"grayline" + "propagation" as well.

bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

Regardless of how some SWL's antennas are aligned, the physics of wave propagation dictate how the signal will
arrive, not the antenna position. But... if one has an antenna, or antennas to position properly, they will be
able to take greater advantage of the direction the signal is coming from, thereby getting better reception.

Now go ponder that grey line map again.

I know you'll get it yet! It's actually very simple.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Here are some websites that not only describe some things about
grayline propagation, but also clearly show it's true shape and why a
flat map will portray a grayline differently than its true shape
(which is, in actual fact, a great circle with an approximately
85-minute-wide width along the sunrise/sunset terminator).

http://www.iri.tudelft.nl/~geurink/grayline.htm
http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/propagation_gray_line.htm
http://www.cpcug.org/user/wfeidt/Misc/n4kgprop.html

There are numerous websites also that but discuss how, through
geomagnetic-solar-induced electron gradients, radio propagation may be
diverted from its normal great-circle path onto *another* and
different great circle pathway - and how, if one is lucky, one of
those great circle paths may a grayline terminator that will deliver a
wondrous DX signal to your ears.

Some other websites even go on to say that, unless you are
running/listening to CW or high-powered SSB, these diversions are not
always likely to yield good results, because much is still lost when
the RRF shifts pathways.

Radio waves, like light waves (which they really are), do not just
bounce around as they like depending upon random events and
conditions. They travel in straight lines, and are affected (under
earthbound conditions) only by reflective and refractive factors -
ionospheric skip keeps them near the earth, and geomagnetic electronic
gradients can veer them. Absent the latter, within a very narrow
bound, those signals will assume a great circle pathway -

Which brings us to the tentative conclusion that DxAce's most common
and likely reception pathway for Diego Garcia is a great circle route,
and a trace of that route is going to give you, for practical
purposes, a pathway that closely approaches the north or south
geomagnetic pole.

Yes, but it's not grey line!

Damn, you just don't get grey line, do you? Nor do you understand the grey line term of 'crooked path'.

If it sounds watery one day and not so watery the
next, it is because the interaction between the solar flux and the
earth's geomagnetic field varies from day to day - providing, perhaps,
modest skewing or rippling of the signal.

No ****.

I give up. Gonna let the damn 'tard stay a 'tard.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

\ Who the hell said I'm relying on a flat map...?

It's either that or a globe - there ain't no in between...and it's
obvious you aren't talking about a spherical surface

It's clear to me that you don't understand grey line propagation, or the terminology that goes along with it.

And you apprently have a monopoly on this? I don't see it. In fact,
I would pay money to see you try to explain it.

Someday perhaps you'll understand what the term 'crooked path' means.

If someone would explain it to me without being a total jerk, maybe I
would. But, maybe I'm asking the wrong person - all you do lately is
call people 'tards for not agreeing with you...you don't contribute
much.

It's just a term! Get a frickin clue Jensen!

Ah, I see, so you use it but it's meaningless? Your powers of
communication are staggering.

You get back to me when you figure it out!
Boggling.

To you, maybe - but based on what I've seen and read, you're the *only
one* who doesn't understand - and not a single shred of what you've
said here gives any indication otherwise.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

BJ
**

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

snips

No, the grey line is not always necessarily a straight line path, but can be a
'crooked path', and that is 'veering around corners' as you say.

Hmmm - can you explain this?

Geometrically, with the sun's rays essentially parallel to one another
shining on the disc of the earth, the grayline would always represent
a virtually perfect circumference, no matter which exact face the
earth presents to the sun - hence, while a flat map of the world shows
an undulating wave, the grayline is actually a 'straight' line along
the earth's face. The only deviation from this that I can determine
would be the astronomical width of the sun, about 0.5 degree, and
whatever 'ionic' width either side of that partial illumination at
sunrise/sunset would be involved in improved propagation.

I can imagine that something about the earth's magnetic field could
vary this, especilly *at* the poles - is this why some 'crookedness'
can occur?

It's very easy to see, just look at a grey line map.

It's a well known propagation phenomenon.

At least amongst the cognoscenti.

And, has nothing to do with the magnetic field.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

A "map" is not an accurate representation of the globe's surface - if
it is not on a spherical surface, then every single object plotted on
a map has some degree of distortion. The lovely sine-wave shaped
grayline you see on a typical flat map is a distortion of its true
shape, just as the map itself is a distortion of the earth's surface.

In reality, a grayline is a virtually perfect circle in a single plane
slicing through the center of the planet, corresponding to the
terminator of the sun's rays as they reach the earth. Even the
grayline websites admit this.

It is fairly easy to visualize. Put a ball (the earth) up in front of
you, with a bright small light (the sun) situated about 15 feet away.
Look at the side of the ball - the gray area at the horizon traces a
neat planar circle around the perimeter of the ball. Same with ol'
sol and terra, except on a bigger scale.

That, from a cognoscentus of simple geometry and astronomy.

I'm truly sorry that you don't understand the concept, and cannot understand it. A case of
trying to over engineer the obvious?

Boggling.

But, I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it!

dxAce
Michigan
USA

And, noting a person who obviously does not have your immense
background in this field and would love to have the benefit of your
vast knowledge, you are still unwilling to share it, I guess.

Or incapable.

I'd bet the latter.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

BJ
**

bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

\ Who the hell said I'm relying on a flat map...?

It's either that or a globe - there ain't no in between...and it's
obvious you aren't talking about a spherical surface

It's clear to me that you don't understand grey line propagation, or the terminology that goes along with it.

And you apprently have a monopoly on this? I don't see it. In fact,
I would pay money to see you try to explain it.

Someday perhaps you'll understand what the term 'crooked path' means.

If someone would explain it to me without being a total jerk, maybe I
would. But, maybe I'm asking the wrong person - all you do lately is
call people 'tards for not agreeing with you...you don't contribute
much.



It's just a term! Get a frickin clue Jensen!

Ah, I see, so you use it but it's meaningless? Your powers of
communication are staggering.

You get back to me when you figure it out!
Boggling.

To you, maybe - but based on what I've seen and read, you're the *only
one* who doesn't understand - and not a single shred of what you've
said here gives any indication otherwise.

Hey... don't have a damn hissy fit because you can't understand an extremely simple concept. And it is indeed
simple, you're probably looking right at it, yet you can't see it.

I certainly don't have a monopoly on the concept, nor the term itself, and I am not the originator of the term.

But it is certainly descriptive of what occurs, I'm just sorry you can't visualise it.

Truly boggling.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

snips

No, the grey line is not always necessarily a straight line path, but can be a
'crooked path', and that is 'veering around corners' as you say.

Hmmm - can you explain this?

Geometrically, with the sun's rays essentially parallel to one another
shining on the disc of the earth, the grayline would always represent
a virtually perfect circumference, no matter which exact face the
earth presents to the sun - hence, while a flat map of the world shows
an undulating wave, the grayline is actually a 'straight' line along
the earth's face. The only deviation from this that I can determine
would be the astronomical width of the sun, about 0.5 degree, and
whatever 'ionic' width either side of that partial illumination at
sunrise/sunset would be involved in improved propagation.

I can imagine that something about the earth's magnetic field could
vary this, especilly *at* the poles - is this why some 'crookedness'
can occur?

It's very easy to see, just look at a grey line map.

It's a well known propagation phenomenon.

At least amongst the cognoscenti.

And, has nothing to do with the magnetic field.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

A "map" is not an accurate representation of the globe's surface - if
it is not on a spherical surface, then every single object plotted on
a map has some degree of distortion. The lovely sine-wave shaped
grayline you see on a typical flat map is a distortion of its true
shape, just as the map itself is a distortion of the earth's surface.

In reality, a grayline is a virtually perfect circle in a single plane
slicing through the center of the planet, corresponding to the
terminator of the sun's rays as they reach the earth. Even the
grayline websites admit this.

It is fairly easy to visualize. Put a ball (the earth) up in front of
you, with a bright small light (the sun) situated about 15 feet away.
Look at the side of the ball - the gray area at the horizon traces a
neat planar circle around the perimeter of the ball. Same with ol'
sol and terra, except on a bigger scale.

That, from a cognoscentus of simple geometry and astronomy.

I'm truly sorry that you don't understand the concept, and cannot understand it. A case of
trying to over engineer the obvious?

Boggling.

But, I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it!

dxAce
Michigan
USA

And, noting a person who obviously does not have your immense
background in this field and would love to have the benefit of your
vast knowledge, you are still unwilling to share it, I guess.

Or incapable.

I'd bet the latter.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Sure I do... you simply seem unable to grasp or visualize the concept.

'Tis you who have no idea!

dxAce
Michigan
USA

bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

snips

No, the grey line is not always necessarily a straight line path, but can be a
'crooked path', and that is 'veering around corners' as you say.

Hmmm - can you explain this?

Geometrically, with the sun's rays essentially parallel to one another
shining on the disc of the earth, the grayline would always represent
a virtually perfect circumference, no matter which exact face the
earth presents to the sun - hence, while a flat map of the world shows
an undulating wave, the grayline is actually a 'straight' line along
the earth's face. The only deviation from this that I can determine
would be the astronomical width of the sun, about 0.5 degree, and
whatever 'ionic' width either side of that partial illumination at
sunrise/sunset would be involved in improved propagation.

I can imagine that something about the earth's magnetic field could
vary this, especilly *at* the poles - is this why some 'crookedness'
can occur?

It's very easy to see, just look at a grey line map.

It's a well known propagation phenomenon.

At least amongst the cognoscenti.

And, has nothing to do with the magnetic field.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

A "map" is not an accurate representation of the globe's surface - if
it is not on a spherical surface, then every single object plotted on
a map has some degree of distortion. The lovely sine-wave shaped
grayline you see on a typical flat map is a distortion of its true
shape, just as the map itself is a distortion of the earth's surface.

In reality, a grayline is a virtually perfect circle in a single plane
slicing through the center of the planet, corresponding to the
terminator of the sun's rays as they reach the earth. Even the
grayline websites admit this.

It is fairly easy to visualize. Put a ball (the earth) up in front of
you, with a bright small light (the sun) situated about 15 feet away.
Look at the side of the ball - the gray area at the horizon traces a
neat planar circle around the perimeter of the ball. Same with ol'
sol and terra, except on a bigger scale.

That, from a cognoscentus of simple geometry and astronomy.

I'm truly sorry that you don't understand the concept, and cannot understand it. A case of
trying to over engineer the obvious?

Boggling.

But, I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it!

dxAce
Michigan
USA

And, noting a person who obviously does not have your immense
background in this field and would love to have the benefit of your
vast knowledge, you are still unwilling to share it, I guess.

Or incapable.

I'd bet the latter.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

You just get back to me after you understand what grey line propagation is all about.

Study up, do a little thinking, get yourself an azimuthal map, figure out how to plot the gray
line on it (that will certainly go a long way to help you visualize what occurs) and than you
get back to me.

Until then, I guess I do know more about it than you do, since it only took me about 2 seconds
to comprehend it when I first learned of it.

It's so simple!

Boggling, truly boggling.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

Regardless of how some SWL's antennas are aligned, the physics of wave propagation dictate how the signal will
arrive, not the antenna position. But... if one has an antenna, or antennas to position properly, they will be
able to take greater advantage of the direction the signal is coming from, thereby getting better reception.

Now go ponder that grey line map again.

I know you'll get it yet! It's actually very simple.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Here are some websites that not only describe some things about
grayline propagation, but also clearly show it's true shape and why a
flat map will portray a grayline differently than its true shape
(which is, in actual fact, a great circle with an approximately
85-minute-wide width along the sunrise/sunset terminator).

http://www.iri.tudelft.nl/~geurink/grayline.htm
http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/propagation_gray_line.htm
http://www.cpcug.org/user/wfeidt/Misc/n4kgprop.html

There are numerous websites also that but discuss how, through
geomagnetic-solar-induced electron gradients, radio propagation may be
diverted from its normal great-circle path onto *another* and
different great circle pathway - and how, if one is lucky, one of
those great circle paths may a grayline terminator that will deliver a
wondrous DX signal to your ears.

Some other websites even go on to say that, unless you are
running/listening to CW or high-powered SSB, these diversions are not
always likely to yield good results, because much is still lost when
the RRF shifts pathways.

Radio waves, like light waves (which they really are), do not just
bounce around as they like depending upon random events and
conditions. They travel in straight lines, and are affected (under
earthbound conditions) only by reflective and refractive factors -
ionospheric skip keeps them near the earth, and geomagnetic electronic
gradients can veer them. Absent the latter, within a very narrow
bound, those signals will assume a great circle pathway -

Which brings us to the tentative conclusion that DxAce's most common
and likely reception pathway for Diego Garcia is a great circle route,
and a trace of that route is going to give you, for practical
purposes, a pathway that closely approaches the north or south
geomagnetic pole.

Yes, but it's not grey line!

I know it's not. I never said it was.

Damn, you just don't get grey line, do you? Nor do you understand the grey line term of 'crooked path'.

I'd like to, but No, in all of your responses you've never taken the
time to explain it or give me the slightest idea hwo I can find out.
You have no interest in helping a fellow DXer out - you'd rather just
find a reason to be a bully. Well, your dreams have come true again.

If it sounds watery one day and not so watery the
next, it is because the interaction between the solar flux and the
earth's geomagnetic field varies from day to day - providing, perhaps,
modest skewing or rippling of the signal.

No ****.

I give up. Gonna let the damn 'tard stay a 'tard.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Typical response from Steve. Instead of taking a little time to
explain what he is talking about - which for a person of his
incredible IQ should be a snap - Steve continues to belittle and
cajole, and like with so many other people he chooses to disagree
with, closes with this classic insult that makes him sound like a
broken Edison cylinder.

I've heard that you're a nice guy over the phone - probably even nicer
in person - why such a prick on the internet?

Bruce Jensen

bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

Regardless of how some SWL's antennas are aligned, the physics of wave propagation dictate how the signal will
arrive, not the antenna position. But... if one has an antenna, or antennas to position properly, they will be
able to take greater advantage of the direction the signal is coming from, thereby getting better reception.

Now go ponder that grey line map again.

I know you'll get it yet! It's actually very simple.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Here are some websites that not only describe some things about
grayline propagation, but also clearly show it's true shape and why a
flat map will portray a grayline differently than its true shape
(which is, in actual fact, a great circle with an approximately
85-minute-wide width along the sunrise/sunset terminator).

http://www.iri.tudelft.nl/~geurink/grayline.htm
http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/propagation_gray_line.htm
http://www.cpcug.org/user/wfeidt/Misc/n4kgprop.html

There are numerous websites also that but discuss how, through
geomagnetic-solar-induced electron gradients, radio propagation may be
diverted from its normal great-circle path onto *another* and
different great circle pathway - and how, if one is lucky, one of
those great circle paths may a grayline terminator that will deliver a
wondrous DX signal to your ears.

Some other websites even go on to say that, unless you are
running/listening to CW or high-powered SSB, these diversions are not
always likely to yield good results, because much is still lost when
the RRF shifts pathways.

Radio waves, like light waves (which they really are), do not just
bounce around as they like depending upon random events and
conditions. They travel in straight lines, and are affected (under
earthbound conditions) only by reflective and refractive factors -
ionospheric skip keeps them near the earth, and geomagnetic electronic
gradients can veer them. Absent the latter, within a very narrow
bound, those signals will assume a great circle pathway -

Which brings us to the tentative conclusion that DxAce's most common
and likely reception pathway for Diego Garcia is a great circle route,
and a trace of that route is going to give you, for practical
purposes, a pathway that closely approaches the north or south
geomagnetic pole.

Yes, but it's not grey line!

I know it's not. I never said it was.

Damn, you just don't get grey line, do you? Nor do you understand the grey line term of 'crooked path'.

I'd like to, but No, in all of your responses you've never taken the
time to explain it or give me the slightest idea hwo I can find out.
You have no interest in helping a fellow DXer out - you'd rather just
find a reason to be a bully. Well, your dreams have come true again.

If it sounds watery one day and not so watery the
next, it is because the interaction between the solar flux and the
earth's geomagnetic field varies from day to day - providing, perhaps,
modest skewing or rippling of the signal.

No ****.

I give up. Gonna let the damn 'tard stay a 'tard.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Typical response from Steve. Instead of taking a little time to
explain what he is talking about - which for a person of his
incredible IQ should be a snap - Steve continues to belittle and
cajole, and like with so many other people he chooses to disagree
with, closes with this classic insult that makes him sound like a
broken Edison cylinder.

I've heard that you're a nice guy over the phone - probably even nicer
in person - why such a prick on the internet?

Hey, get off my case Jensen. I can't help it if you can't understand a simple concept.

It ought to be easy for a semi-pro whatever...

Now stop having a Northern California hissy fit.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

Regardless of how some SWL's antennas are aligned, the physics of wave propagation dictate how the signal will
arrive, not the antenna position. But... if one has an antenna, or antennas to position properly, they will be
able to take greater advantage of the direction the signal is coming from, thereby getting better reception.

Now go ponder that grey line map again.

I know you'll get it yet! It's actually very simple.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Here are some websites that not only describe some things about
grayline propagation, but also clearly show it's true shape and why a
flat map will portray a grayline differently than its true shape
(which is, in actual fact, a great circle with an approximately
85-minute-wide width along the sunrise/sunset terminator).

http://www.iri.tudelft.nl/~geurink/grayline.htm
http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/propagation_gray_line.htm
http://www.cpcug.org/user/wfeidt/Misc/n4kgprop.html

There are numerous websites also that but discuss how, through
geomagnetic-solar-induced electron gradients, radio propagation may be
diverted from its normal great-circle path onto *another* and
different great circle pathway - and how, if one is lucky, one of
those great circle paths may a grayline terminator that will deliver a
wondrous DX signal to your ears.

Some other websites even go on to say that, unless you are
running/listening to CW or high-powered SSB, these diversions are not
always likely to yield good results, because much is still lost when
the RRF shifts pathways.

Radio waves, like light waves (which they really are), do not just
bounce around as they like depending upon random events and
conditions. They travel in straight lines, and are affected (under
earthbound conditions) only by reflective and refractive factors -
ionospheric skip keeps them near the earth, and geomagnetic electronic
gradients can veer them. Absent the latter, within a very narrow
bound, those signals will assume a great circle pathway -

Which brings us to the tentative conclusion that DxAce's most common
and likely reception pathway for Diego Garcia is a great circle route,
and a trace of that route is going to give you, for practical
purposes, a pathway that closely approaches the north or south
geomagnetic pole.

Yes, but it's not grey line!

I know it's not. I never said it was.

Damn, you just don't get grey line, do you? Nor do you understand the grey line term of 'crooked path'.

I'd like to, but No, in all of your responses you've never taken the
time to explain it or give me the slightest idea hwo I can find out.
You have no interest in helping a fellow DXer out - you'd rather just
find a reason to be a bully. Well, your dreams have come true again.

If it sounds watery one day and not so watery the
next, it is because the interaction between the solar flux and the
earth's geomagnetic field varies from day to day - providing, perhaps,
modest skewing or rippling of the signal.

No ****.

I give up. Gonna let the damn 'tard stay a 'tard.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Typical response from Steve. Instead of taking a little time to
explain what he is talking about - which for a person of his
incredible IQ should be a snap - Steve continues to belittle and
cajole, and like with so many other people he chooses to disagree
with, closes with this classic insult that makes him sound like a
broken Edison cylinder.

I've heard that you're a nice guy over the phone - probably even nicer
in person - why such a prick on the internet?

Hey, get off my case Jensen. I can't help it if you can't understand a simple concept.

It ought to be easy for a semi-pro whatever...

Now stop having a Northern California hissy fit.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

You may consider me off your case. You're probably about my age,
maybe a little bit older, and we get to this point in life, little
things (like screwy misunderstandings on the internet) can set us off.

I do now understand what you were talking about - and honestly, thanks
for the subtle pointers - ultimately, I managed to obtain more
information came from an alternate source, and to my own satisfaction,
I was not completely wrong :-)

A grayline is still, however, a great circle, no matter what kind of
map you draw it on. It's the internal electronic workings that give
it that so-desirable ducting effect, and its crookedness. Oh, to have
aim-able antennas...

BJ

bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

Regardless of how some SWL's antennas are aligned, the physics of wave propagation dictate how the signal will
arrive, not the antenna position. But... if one has an antenna, or antennas to position properly, they will be
able to take greater advantage of the direction the signal is coming from, thereby getting better reception.

Now go ponder that grey line map again.

I know you'll get it yet! It's actually very simple.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Here are some websites that not only describe some things about
grayline propagation, but also clearly show it's true shape and why a
flat map will portray a grayline differently than its true shape
(which is, in actual fact, a great circle with an approximately
85-minute-wide width along the sunrise/sunset terminator).

http://www.iri.tudelft.nl/~geurink/grayline.htm
http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/propagation_gray_line.htm
http://www.cpcug.org/user/wfeidt/Misc/n4kgprop.html

There are numerous websites also that but discuss how, through
geomagnetic-solar-induced electron gradients, radio propagation may be
diverted from its normal great-circle path onto *another* and
different great circle pathway - and how, if one is lucky, one of
those great circle paths may a grayline terminator that will deliver a
wondrous DX signal to your ears.

Some other websites even go on to say that, unless you are
running/listening to CW or high-powered SSB, these diversions are not
always likely to yield good results, because much is still lost when
the RRF shifts pathways.

Radio waves, like light waves (which they really are), do not just
bounce around as they like depending upon random events and
conditions. They travel in straight lines, and are affected (under
earthbound conditions) only by reflective and refractive factors -
ionospheric skip keeps them near the earth, and geomagnetic electronic
gradients can veer them. Absent the latter, within a very narrow
bound, those signals will assume a great circle pathway -

Which brings us to the tentative conclusion that DxAce's most common
and likely reception pathway for Diego Garcia is a great circle route,
and a trace of that route is going to give you, for practical
purposes, a pathway that closely approaches the north or south
geomagnetic pole.

Yes, but it's not grey line!

I know it's not. I never said it was.

Damn, you just don't get grey line, do you? Nor do you understand the grey line term of 'crooked path'.

I'd like to, but No, in all of your responses you've never taken the
time to explain it or give me the slightest idea hwo I can find out.
You have no interest in helping a fellow DXer out - you'd rather just
find a reason to be a bully. Well, your dreams have come true again.

If it sounds watery one day and not so watery the
next, it is because the interaction between the solar flux and the
earth's geomagnetic field varies from day to day - providing, perhaps,
modest skewing or rippling of the signal.

No ****.

I give up. Gonna let the damn 'tard stay a 'tard.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Typical response from Steve. Instead of taking a little time to
explain what he is talking about - which for a person of his
incredible IQ should be a snap - Steve continues to belittle and
cajole, and like with so many other people he chooses to disagree
with, closes with this classic insult that makes him sound like a
broken Edison cylinder.

I've heard that you're a nice guy over the phone - probably even nicer
in person - why such a prick on the internet?

Hey, get off my case Jensen. I can't help it if you can't understand a simple concept.

It ought to be easy for a semi-pro whatever...

Now stop having a Northern California hissy fit.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

You may consider me off your case. You're probably about my age,
maybe a little bit older, and we get to this point in life, little
things (like screwy misunderstandings on the internet) can set us off.

I do now understand what you were talking about - and honestly, thanks
for the subtle pointers - ultimately, I managed to obtain more
information came from an alternate source, and to my own satisfaction,
I was not completely wrong :-)

A grayline is still, however, a great circle, no matter what kind of
map you draw it on. It's the internal electronic workings that give
it that so-desirable ducting effect, and its crookedness. Oh, to have
aim-able antennas...

Have a nice evening, Bruce.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

Regardless of how some SWL's antennas are aligned, the physics of wave propagation dictate how the signal will
arrive, not the antenna position. But... if one has an antenna, or antennas to position properly, they will be
able to take greater advantage of the direction the signal is coming from, thereby getting better reception.

Now go ponder that grey line map again.

I know you'll get it yet! It's actually very simple.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Here are some websites that not only describe some things about
grayline propagation, but also clearly show it's true shape and why a
flat map will portray a grayline differently than its true shape
(which is, in actual fact, a great circle with an approximately
85-minute-wide width along the sunrise/sunset terminator).

http://www.iri.tudelft.nl/~geurink/grayline.htm
http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/propagation_gray_line.htm
http://www.cpcug.org/user/wfeidt/Misc/n4kgprop.html

There are numerous websites also that but discuss how, through
geomagnetic-solar-induced electron gradients, radio propagation may be
diverted from its normal great-circle path onto *another* and
different great circle pathway - and how, if one is lucky, one of
those great circle paths may a grayline terminator that will deliver a
wondrous DX signal to your ears.

Some other websites even go on to say that, unless you are
running/listening to CW or high-powered SSB, these diversions are not
always likely to yield good results, because much is still lost when
the RRF shifts pathways.

Radio waves, like light waves (which they really are), do not just
bounce around as they like depending upon random events and
conditions. They travel in straight lines, and are affected (under
earthbound conditions) only by reflective and refractive factors -
ionospheric skip keeps them near the earth, and geomagnetic electronic
gradients can veer them. Absent the latter, within a very narrow
bound, those signals will assume a great circle pathway -

Which brings us to the tentative conclusion that DxAce's most common
and likely reception pathway for Diego Garcia is a great circle route,
and a trace of that route is going to give you, for practical
purposes, a pathway that closely approaches the north or south
geomagnetic pole.

Yes, but it's not grey line!

I know it's not. I never said it was.

Damn, you just don't get grey line, do you? Nor do you understand the grey line term of 'crooked path'.

I'd like to, but No, in all of your responses you've never taken the
time to explain it or give me the slightest idea hwo I can find out.
You have no interest in helping a fellow DXer out - you'd rather just
find a reason to be a bully. Well, your dreams have come true again.

If it sounds watery one day and not so watery the
next, it is because the interaction between the solar flux and the
earth's geomagnetic field varies from day to day - providing, perhaps,
modest skewing or rippling of the signal.

No ****.

I give up. Gonna let the damn 'tard stay a 'tard.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Typical response from Steve. Instead of taking a little time to
explain what he is talking about - which for a person of his
incredible IQ should be a snap - Steve continues to belittle and
cajole, and like with so many other people he chooses to disagree
with, closes with this classic insult that makes him sound like a
broken Edison cylinder.

I've heard that you're a nice guy over the phone - probably even nicer
in person - why such a prick on the internet?

Hey, get off my case Jensen. I can't help it if you can't understand a simple concept.

It ought to be easy for a semi-pro whatever...

Now stop having a Northern California hissy fit.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

You may consider me off your case. You're probably about my age,
maybe a little bit older, and we get to this point in life, little
things (like screwy misunderstandings on the internet) can set us off.

I do now understand what you were talking about - and honestly, thanks
for the subtle pointers - ultimately, I managed to obtain more
information came from an alternate source, and to my own satisfaction,
I was not completely wrong :-)

A grayline is still, however, a great circle, no matter what kind of
map you draw it on.

You are confusing a great circle route with grey line propagation. It is not the same.

A great circle route is the shortest path between two points. The reciprocal would be the long path.

Grey line propagation does not necessarily follow either the short path or the long path, but it does follow the grey line
terminator, which results in the 'crooked path'.

I know you'll get it figured out sooner or later!

It's incredibly simple.

It's the internal electronic workings that give
it that so-desirable ducting effect, and its crookedness.

It has nothing to do with electronics!

dxAce
Michigan
USA

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

Regardless of how some SWL's antennas are aligned, the physics of wave propagation dictate how the signal will
arrive, not the antenna position. But... if one has an antenna, or antennas to position properly, they will be
able to take greater advantage of the direction the signal is coming from, thereby getting better reception.

Now go ponder that grey line map again.

I know you'll get it yet! It's actually very simple.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Here are some websites that not only describe some things about
grayline propagation, but also clearly show it's true shape and why a
flat map will portray a grayline differently than its true shape
(which is, in actual fact, a great circle with an approximately
85-minute-wide width along the sunrise/sunset terminator).

http://www.iri.tudelft.nl/~geurink/grayline.htm
http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/propagation_gray_line.htm
http://www.cpcug.org/user/wfeidt/Misc/n4kgprop.html

There are numerous websites also that but discuss how, through
geomagnetic-solar-induced electron gradients, radio propagation may be
diverted from its normal great-circle path onto *another* and
different great circle pathway - and how, if one is lucky, one of
those great circle paths may a grayline terminator that will deliver a
wondrous DX signal to your ears.

Some other websites even go on to say that, unless you are
running/listening to CW or high-powered SSB, these diversions are not
always likely to yield good results, because much is still lost when
the RRF shifts pathways.

Radio waves, like light waves (which they really are), do not just
bounce around as they like depending upon random events and
conditions. They travel in straight lines, and are affected (under
earthbound conditions) only by reflective and refractive factors -
ionospheric skip keeps them near the earth, and geomagnetic electronic
gradients can veer them. Absent the latter, within a very narrow
bound, those signals will assume a great circle pathway -

Which brings us to the tentative conclusion that DxAce's most common
and likely reception pathway for Diego Garcia is a great circle route,
and a trace of that route is going to give you, for practical
purposes, a pathway that closely approaches the north or south
geomagnetic pole.

Yes, but it's not grey line!

I know it's not. I never said it was.

Damn, you just don't get grey line, do you? Nor do you understand the grey line term of 'crooked path'.

I'd like to, but No, in all of your responses you've never taken the
time to explain it or give me the slightest idea hwo I can find out.
You have no interest in helping a fellow DXer out - you'd rather just
find a reason to be a bully. Well, your dreams have come true again.

If it sounds watery one day and not so watery the
next, it is because the interaction between the solar flux and the
earth's geomagnetic field varies from day to day - providing, perhaps,
modest skewing or rippling of the signal.

No ****.

I give up. Gonna let the damn 'tard stay a 'tard.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Typical response from Steve. Instead of taking a little time to
explain what he is talking about - which for a person of his
incredible IQ should be a snap - Steve continues to belittle and
cajole, and like with so many other people he chooses to disagree
with, closes with this classic insult that makes him sound like a
broken Edison cylinder.

I've heard that you're a nice guy over the phone - probably even nicer
in person - why such a prick on the internet?

Hey, get off my case Jensen. I can't help it if you can't understand a simple concept.

It ought to be easy for a semi-pro whatever...

Now stop having a Northern California hissy fit.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

You may consider me off your case. You're probably about my age,
maybe a little bit older, and we get to this point in life, little
things (like screwy misunderstandings on the internet) can set us off.

I do now understand what you were talking about - and honestly, thanks
for the subtle pointers - ultimately, I managed to obtain more
information came from an alternate source, and to my own satisfaction,
I was not completely wrong :-)

A grayline is still, however, a great circle, no matter what kind of
map you draw it on.

You are confusing a great circle route with grey line propagation. It is not the same.

A great circle route is the shortest path between two points. The reciprocal would be the long path.

No, I'm not confusing anything.

A "great circle" is, literally, a circle drawn around the
circumference of the world. A radio wave travelling along this circle
can reach a receiver either by the short route or the long route,
unless it is antipodal, in which case both routes are the same length.
The shape of this route does not depend on the grayline, that is
true. But...

Grey line propagation does not necessarily follow either the short path or the long path, but it does follow the grey line terminator, which results in the 'crooked path'.

It appears (and I may be wrong) that you define "crookedness" by the
your perception that the grayline is not a circle 7,960 miles in
diameter, but a another shape that corresponds to what you see on an
azimuthal map.

It is an astronomical fact that the cross-section of grayline
terminator has no geometric choice but to nearly center on a great
circle...when you get a grayline working for you, except for the
refractive crooks limited within the 85-arcminute-wide band of the
terminator, that signal is roughly following a great circle path. So,
for that brief period twice a day when the grayline crosses your
coordinates, yes, the signal is loosely following a great circle, with
variations from internal electromagnetic refractions.

If it should also happen to skew onto, or off of, a grayline on to
another great circle route enroute to your receiver (by virtue of an
electromagnetic gradient on the edge of a coronal oval absorption
zone), so much the better and more interesting.

I know you'll get it figured out sooner or later!

I did, thank you.

It's incredibly simple.

I agree.

It's the internal electronic workings that give
it that so-desirable ducting effect, and its crookedness.

It has nothing to do with electronics!

Sure it does - and now, I can give you several websites that will back
me up.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Per your other message,
a most pleasant evening to you as well, and lots of flea-powered DX as
well.
Bruce

bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...
bpnjensen wrote:

dxAce wrote in message ...

Regardless of how some SWL's antennas are aligned, the physics of wave propagation dictate how the signal will
arrive, not the antenna position. But... if one has an antenna, or antennas to position properly, they will be
able to take greater advantage of the direction the signal is coming from, thereby getting better reception.

Now go ponder that grey line map again.

I know you'll get it yet! It's actually very simple.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Here are some websites that not only describe some things about
grayline propagation, but also clearly show it's true shape and why a
flat map will portray a grayline differently than its true shape
(which is, in actual fact, a great circle with an approximately
85-minute-wide width along the sunrise/sunset terminator).

http://www.iri.tudelft.nl/~geurink/grayline.htm
http://www.kc4cop.bizland.com/propagation_gray_line.htm
http://www.cpcug.org/user/wfeidt/Misc/n4kgprop.html

There are numerous websites also that but discuss how, through
geomagnetic-solar-induced electron gradients, radio propagation may be
diverted from its normal great-circle path onto *another* and
different great circle pathway - and how, if one is lucky, one of
those great circle paths may a grayline terminator that will deliver a
wondrous DX signal to your ears.

Some other websites even go on to say that, unless you are
running/listening to CW or high-powered SSB, these diversions are not
always likely to yield good results, because much is still lost when
the RRF shifts pathways.

Radio waves, like light waves (which they really are), do not just
bounce around as they like depending upon random events and
conditions. They travel in straight lines, and are affected (under
earthbound conditions) only by reflective and refractive factors -
ionospheric skip keeps them near the earth, and geomagnetic electronic
gradients can veer them. Absent the latter, within a very narrow
bound, those signals will assume a great circle pathway -

Which brings us to the tentative conclusion that DxAce's most common
and likely reception pathway for Diego Garcia is a great circle route,
and a trace of that route is going to give you, for practical
purposes, a pathway that closely approaches the north or south
geomagnetic pole.

Yes, but it's not grey line!

I know it's not. I never said it was.

Damn, you just don't get grey line, do you? Nor do you understand the grey line term of 'crooked path'.

I'd like to, but No, in all of your responses you've never taken the
time to explain it or give me the slightest idea hwo I can find out.
You have no interest in helping a fellow DXer out - you'd rather just
find a reason to be a bully. Well, your dreams have come true again.

If it sounds watery one day and not so watery the
next, it is because the interaction between the solar flux and the
earth's geomagnetic field varies from day to day - providing, perhaps,
modest skewing or rippling of the signal.

No ****.

I give up. Gonna let the damn 'tard stay a 'tard.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Typical response from Steve. Instead of taking a little time to
explain what he is talking about - which for a person of his
incredible IQ should be a snap - Steve continues to belittle and
cajole, and like with so many other people he chooses to disagree
with, closes with this classic insult that makes him sound like a
broken Edison cylinder.

I've heard that you're a nice guy over the phone - probably even nicer
in person - why such a prick on the internet?

Hey, get off my case Jensen. I can't help it if you can't understand a simple concept.

It ought to be easy for a semi-pro whatever...

Now stop having a Northern California hissy fit.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

You may consider me off your case. You're probably about my age,
maybe a little bit older, and we get to this point in life, little
things (like screwy misunderstandings on the internet) can set us off.

I do now understand what you were talking about - and honestly, thanks
for the subtle pointers - ultimately, I managed to obtain more
information came from an alternate source, and to my own satisfaction,
I was not completely wrong :-)

A grayline is still, however, a great circle, no matter what kind of
map you draw it on.

You are confusing a great circle route with grey line propagation. It is not the same.

A great circle route is the shortest path between two points. The reciprocal would be the long path.

No, I'm not confusing anything.

A "great circle" is, literally, a circle drawn around the
circumference of the world. A radio wave travelling along this circle
can reach a receiver either by the short route or the long route,
unless it is antipodal, in which case both routes are the same length.
The shape of this route does not depend on the grayline, that is
true. But...

Grey line propagation does not necessarily follow either the short path or the long path, but it does follow the grey line terminator, which results in the 'crooked path'.

It appears (and I may be wrong) that you define "crookedness" by the
your perception that the grayline is not a circle 7,960 miles in
diameter, but a another shape that corresponds to what you see on an
azimuthal map.

It IS 'crooked' because it does not follow the short path or the long path but rather the grey line terminator! It doesn't follow a straight line!, hence the term 'crooked path'.

You still don't get it I'm afraid.

I think you still have to understand grey line propagation.

If you were here I could show you the 'crooked path' graphically. But you're not...

It's just as plain as day!

Oh well, I just plain give up.

dxAce
Michigan
USA