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N.Korea (& China?) on the verge of collapse!
China & N. Korea launch harsh crackdowns
China arrests more than 800,000 people for endangering state security “State Security” arrests top 800,000 in 2004, and show no signs of slowing down: The number of people arrested by the Communists for “endangering state security” (Asia News) – the cadres’ catch-all crime for doing anything of which they do not approve – was 811,102 last year. http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=2731 2005 is promising to be another busy year for the brutal dictatorship – over 2,000 “appellants,” i.e., petitioners bringing their grievances against local cadres back home to Beijing – have been arrested Since convening China’s top advisory board, the National Committee of Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference on March 3, the police presence on the streets of Beijing has multiplied, with police vehicles running in every direction. The amount of public security this year is staggering, and seems to suggest a growing fear coming from the Chinese government. Preceding the two conferences, police, public security, national security, armed police, plainclothes police and urban riot police filled the main streets and small alleys of Beijing, overflowing into the surrounding areas. Many of the police are from provinces, cities and autonomous regions sent to “defend the two conferences.” The government is using more than 600,000 state personnel to “protect” the several thousand officials attending the conferences. http://english.epochtimes.com/news/5-3-10/26930.html __________________________________________________ __ N.Korea N. Korea launches harsh crackdown (interesting read) http://interestalert.com/brand/sitei...02aaa05d83.upi &Sys=rmmiller&Fid=WORLDNEW&Type=News&Filter=World% 20News __________________________________________________ __ Enjoy the Voice of Korea propaganda in English: 0100-0200 Z 11735 13760 15180 kHz to N.America 1000-1100 Z 9335 9850 kHz to N.America 1300-1400 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1500-1600 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1800-1900 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 2100-2200 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe __________________________________________________ ____________ |
"Li Changchun" wrote in
: Ah, I see that you do post. Sorry for the confusion. I look at a specific number of posts, either by poster or subject, and I have not remembered your posts. Excellent article on Propaganda at Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Coincidentally, it has a North Korean Poster at the top of the page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda Can you tell us what it says? Regretfully, my understanding of non-English languages is nil, I mean no offense by my request, I am just curious if you can read it. Regards Dr. Artaud Enjoy the Voice of Korea propaganda in English: 0100-0200 Z 11735 13760 15180 kHz to N.America 1000-1100 Z 9335 9850 kHz to N.America 1300-1400 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1500-1600 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1800-1900 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 2100-2200 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe __________________________________________________ ____________ |
Unfortunately Dr., I do not understand Korean.
If you are interested in Korean "propaganda art" you may wish to browse - http://www.pyongyangartstudio.com/ However, I would refrain from making any purchase. "* Dr. Artaud *" wrote in message ... "Li Changchun" wrote in : Ah, I see that you do post. Sorry for the confusion. I look at a specific number of posts, either by poster or subject, and I have not remembered your posts. Excellent article on Propaganda at Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Coincidentally, it has a North Korean Poster at the top of the page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda Can you tell us what it says? Regretfully, my understanding of non-English languages is nil, I mean no offense by my request, I am just curious if you can read it. Regards Dr. Artaud Enjoy the Voice of Korea propaganda in English: 0100-0200 Z 11735 13760 15180 kHz to N.America 1000-1100 Z 9335 9850 kHz to N.America 1300-1400 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1500-1600 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1800-1900 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 2100-2200 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe __________________________________________________ ____________ |
How much western debt does China hold? I think it is quite high,
particularly for the USA. This would mean grave economic problems for the west if China is "on the verge of collapse". As for N Korea, they are so disconnected from the world, no-one would notice except for those of us who like the comedy of their SW broadcasts Li Changchun wrote: junk snipped N.Korea N. Korea launches harsh crackdown (interesting read) http://interestalert.com/brand/sitei...02aaa05d83.upi &Sys=rmmiller&Fid=WORLDNEW&Type=News&Filter=World% 20News __________________________________________________ __ Enjoy the Voice of Korea propaganda in English: 0100-0200 Z 11735 13760 15180 kHz to N.America 1000-1100 Z 9335 9850 kHz to N.America 1300-1400 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1500-1600 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1800-1900 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 2100-2200 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe __________________________________________________ ____________ |
"uncle arnie" wrote How much western debt does China hold? I think it is quite high, particularly for the USA. This would mean grave economic problems for the west if China is "on the verge of collapse". Hardly, in case of a China banking collapse financial arrangements can always be made. We are talking about paper after all. Not gold bullion. Perhaps WalMart stock will collapse but the $US always rallys in times of serious worldwide calamity. The Chinese $Yuan may become worthless. As for N Korea, they are so disconnected from the world, no-one would notice except for those of us who like the comedy of their SW broadcasts. You are seriously mistaken. If the hermit kingdom collapses there will be a human tragedy on the peninsula. The economic costs to S.Korea will be worse than what Germany has had to endure since the fall of the Berlin wall. Assuming hoards of refugees begin to cross the DMZ. Which is very likely. Then there is the geo-political question. Will China invade N.Korea and claim its territory for repayment of decades of economic support? Or will China allow a free and Democratic state to prosper on its economically suffering Northeast border with the peninsula? If so it would be a first as well as a strategic blow to the Communist regime in Beijing. China historically prefers weak, non-threatening regimes as neighbors and works to maintain its supremacy over all its immediate neighbors. Korean history extends into what is now Northeast China. There are Korean claims to these lands. China is well aware of these claims and has summarily rewrote its history books in an attempt to erase these claims. The best scenario for the West would be if one collapses immediately followed by the other. Neither regime would stand which is why China will not pressure N.Korea in regard to nuclear negotiations. China can very easily resolve the nuclear issue since all of N.Korea's energy comes from China. Simply turn off a spigot and flick the big switch and Kim Jong Il is complete history. Li Changchun wrote: junk snipped N.Korea N. Korea launches harsh crackdown (interesting read) http://interestalert.com/brand/sitei...02aaa05d83.upi &Sys=rmmiller&Fid=WORLDNEW&Type=News&Filter=World% 20News __________________________________________________ __ Enjoy the Voice of Korea propaganda in English: 0100-0200 Z 11735 13760 15180 kHz to N.America 1000-1100 Z 9335 9850 kHz to N.America 1300-1400 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1500-1600 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1800-1900 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 2100-2200 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe __________________________________________________ ____________ |
Li Changchun wrote:
"uncle arnie" wrote How much western debt does China hold? I think it is quite high, particularly for the USA. This would mean grave economic problems for the west if China is "on the verge of collapse". Hardly, in case of a China banking collapse financial arrangements can always be made. We are talking about paper after all. Not gold bullion. Perhaps WalMart stock will collapse but the $US always rallys in times of serious worldwide calamity. The Chinese $Yuan may become worthless. The Chinese are currently financing the US government. They hold a BIG chunk of US debt. The West has shifted all its manufacturing facilities to China so in the event of a China collapse there might be serious shortages of most goods. I think your hatred of the CCP has blinded you to the serious implications of a potential China collapse. As for N Korea, they are so disconnected from the world, no-one would notice except for those of us who like the comedy of their SW broadcasts. You are seriously mistaken. If the hermit kingdom collapses there will be a human tragedy on the peninsula. The economic costs to S.Korea will be worse than what Germany has had to endure since the fall of the Berlin wall. Assuming hoards of refugees begin to cross the DMZ. Which is very likely. The DMZ is the most fortified border on earth. The North Koreans have gone to great lengths to make sure that nobody crosses. I'm not so sure that hordes of refugees will be flooding across. Then there is the geo-political question. Will China invade N.Korea and claim its territory for repayment of decades of economic support? Or will China allow a free and Democratic state to prosper on its economically suffering Northeast border with the peninsula? If so it would be a first as well as a strategic blow to the Communist regime in Beijing. I don't think you'd see a democracy spring up in NK. They've had 60 years of harsh Stalinist rule. You'd more likely see a situation like in Afghanistan before the Taliban, with a lot of local party bosses becoming warlords and establishing fiefdoms. China may send troops to ensure "stability". But I don't think China will invade South Korea. The US is a major trading partner for China; the CCP is NOT going to start a nuclear war with the US in the name of Communism. China historically prefers weak, non-threatening regimes as neighbors and works to maintain its supremacy over all its immediate neighbors. Korean history extends into what is now Northeast China. There are Korean claims to these lands. China is well aware of these claims and has summarily rewrote its history books in an attempt to erase these claims. The best scenario for the West would be if one collapses immediately followed by the other. Neither regime would stand which is why China will not pressure N.Korea in regard to nuclear negotiations. China can very easily resolve the nuclear issue since all of N.Korea's energy comes from China. Simply turn off a spigot and flick the big switch and Kim Jong Il is complete history. If China thinks they can keep Kim from nuking Seoul, they may be sadly mistaken. Unlike the massive bureaucracy that Communism has become in China, in NK Kim is the end all and be all of government. He is totally cut off from the rest of the world and lives in a dream world and is much more likely to start a war with the US to "free" SK. If the US is forced to invade NK because of Kim, the US will likely reach a quid pro quo with the Chinese, keeping the Yalu River as the boundary between US and Chinese troops. The mutual trade between China and the US means that all out war between the two is not likely, even if China invades Taiwan. The US establishment is not willing to have a nuclear war over Taiwan or Korea. Li Changchun wrote: junk snipped N.Korea N. Korea launches harsh crackdown (interesting read) http://interestalert.com/brand/sitei...02aaa05d83.upi &Sys=rmmiller&Fid=WORLDNEW&Type=News&Filter=World% 20News __________________________________________________ __ Enjoy the Voice of Korea propaganda in English: 0100-0200 Z 11735 13760 15180 kHz to N.America 1000-1100 Z 9335 9850 kHz to N.America 1300-1400 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1500-1600 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1800-1900 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 2100-2200 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe __________________________________________________ ____________ ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
"running dogg" The Chinese are currently financing the US government. They hold a BIG chunk of US debt. The West has shifted all its manufacturing facilities to China so in the event of a China collapse there might be serious shortages of most goods. What you are likely to see in China is the collapse of their banks, which are already insolvent and technically bankrupt, and the disentigration of the CCP. Neither of which will likely spell the end of their manufacturing base. In the very short term there may be disruptions but it would quickly recover and without the CCPoverhead possibly become much more robust. I think your hatred of the CCP has blinded you to the serious implications of a potential China collapse. Your love of the CCP has seriously blinded you to a brutal muderous regime which is deeply hated by their own people. The DMZ is the most fortified border on earth. The North Koreans have gone to great lengths to make sure that nobody crosses. I'm not so sure that hordes of refugees will be flooding across. If the N.Korean side of the DMZ becomes demilitarized because of a regime colapse you can be sure that waves of refugees will find a way across or around it. China would also see refugees. I don't think you'd see a democracy spring up in NK. They've had 60 years of harsh Stalinist rule. You'd more likely see a situation like in Afghanistan before the Taliban, with a lot of local party bosses becoming warlords and establishing fiefdoms. I see you are assuming that another brutal regime will take hold. But that is not the scenario I am discussing. Besides another regime would simply collapse as quikely as the old. China may send troops to ensure "stability". Indeed, and that would be viewed as a very provactive move in Seoul and the West. But I don't think China will invade South Korea. The US is a major trading partner for China; the CCP is NOT going to start a nuclear war with the US in the name of Communism. Has it occured to you that whomever overthrows Kim Jong Il may well be "friendly" with the South? If China thinks they can keep Kim from nuking Seoul, they may be sadly mistaken. Unlike the massive bureaucracy that Communism has become in China, in NK Kim is the end all and be all of government. He is totally cut off from the rest of the world and lives in a dream world and is much more likely to start a war with the US to "free" SK. If the US is forced to invade NK because of Kim, the US will likely reach a quid pro quo with the Chinese, keeping the Yalu River as the boundary between US and Chinese troops. The mutual trade between China and the US means that all out war between the two is not likely, even if China invades Taiwan. The US establishment is not willing to have a nuclear war over Taiwan or Korea. You make many assumptions here about many countries. China is well known for saber rattling against Taiwan. Taiwan businesses invest heavily in China as well. The scenario of any nuclear exchange in the region is very remote. Regarding N.Korea, even if Kim Jong Il does indeed have a "couple" of nuclear tipped weapons, considering the latest intelligence and if his military is even slightly coherent", they would likely depose of him and refrain. In any case, nuclear weapons aside, the Korean peninsular would become the immediate focus of attention in the West and Beijing and Seoul would have many urgent and pressing meetings to attend. |
Li Changchun wrote:
"running dogg" The Chinese are currently financing the US government. They hold a BIG chunk of US debt. The West has shifted all its manufacturing facilities to China so in the event of a China collapse there might be serious shortages of most goods. What you are likely to see in China is the collapse of their banks, which are already insolvent and technically bankrupt, and the disentigration of the CCP. Neither of which will likely spell the end of their manufacturing base. In the very short term there may be disruptions but it would quickly recover and without the CCPoverhead possibly become much more robust. Possibly. But China has a tradition of warlord rule, and for much of its history has been broken into feuding fiefdoms, despite the common culture and language of the Chinese people. Then again, the same situation persisted in Italy for a thousand years, and that country is now stable and prosperous. I think your hatred of the CCP has blinded you to the serious implications of a potential China collapse. Your love of the CCP has seriously blinded you to a brutal muderous regime which is deeply hated by their own people. You seem to make this same curious error over and over again, equating any concern about China's stability and potential disruptions to the west if that stability were to be disrupted with love of the CCP. I doubt most westerners love the CCP, I sure don't. But it's the only thing holding the country together. Like I said, China has a long, bloody history of warlordism and civil war, and any collapse of the CCP might bring a return to the bad old days. This bad situation-a brutal dictatorship being the only thing keeping the world's most populous country from sliding into chaos-is exacerbated greatly by the fact that China now has virtually ALL of the world's industrial capacity. There is no more industrial base in America, Europe, Japan. It's all been moved to China. If China descends into chaos the rest of the world will go with it. Blame your beloved capitalists for being too willing to cozy up to a regime that could be toppled by a mass movement like Falun Gong and that allows massive pollution and 10 cent a day wages. The DMZ is the most fortified border on earth. The North Koreans have gone to great lengths to make sure that nobody crosses. I'm not so sure that hordes of refugees will be flooding across. If the N.Korean side of the DMZ becomes demilitarized because of a regime colapse you can be sure that waves of refugees will find a way across or around it. China would also see refugees. Maybe to start with there would be a lot of North Koreans attempting to cross, but it might die down after a while. There was no massive refugee crisis when European Communism collapsed. Most of the East Germans who fled into West Berlin right after the wall came down eventually went back home. I don't think you'd see a democracy spring up in NK. They've had 60 years of harsh Stalinist rule. You'd more likely see a situation like in Afghanistan before the Taliban, with a lot of local party bosses becoming warlords and establishing fiefdoms. I see you are assuming that another brutal regime will take hold. But that is not the scenario I am discussing. Besides another regime would simply collapse as quikely as the old. I didn't say that another centralized dictatorship would take hold, I said that the country would descend into warlord rule and possibly civil war. There is a difference. China may send troops to ensure "stability". Indeed, and that would be viewed as a very provactive move in Seoul and the West. But I don't think that it would trigger a western invasion of NK. But I don't think China will invade South Korea. The US is a major trading partner for China; the CCP is NOT going to start a nuclear war with the US in the name of Communism. Has it occured to you that whomever overthrows Kim Jong Il may well be "friendly" with the South? You're assuming that a pro Western ruler replaces Kim. But I'm saying that no ruler may replace Kim, that NK would break up instead, and that would likely be much worse than a pro West regime in the North being toppled by the Chinese. If China thinks they can keep Kim from nuking Seoul, they may be sadly mistaken. Unlike the massive bureaucracy that Communism has become in China, in NK Kim is the end all and be all of government. He is totally cut off from the rest of the world and lives in a dream world and is much more likely to start a war with the US to "free" SK. If the US is forced to invade NK because of Kim, the US will likely reach a quid pro quo with the Chinese, keeping the Yalu River as the boundary between US and Chinese troops. The mutual trade between China and the US means that all out war between the two is not likely, even if China invades Taiwan. The US establishment is not willing to have a nuclear war over Taiwan or Korea. You make many assumptions here about many countries. China is well known for saber rattling against Taiwan. Taiwan businesses invest heavily in China as well. The scenario of any nuclear exchange in the region is very remote. Regarding N.Korea, even if Kim Jong Il does indeed have a "couple" of nuclear tipped weapons, considering the latest intelligence and if his military is even slightly coherent", they would likely depose of him and refrain. It's possible, but there would be enough loyalists to go ahead with the Bomb drop and force a US invasion. In any case, nuclear weapons aside, the Korean peninsular would become the immediate focus of attention in the West and Beijing and Seoul would have many urgent and pressing meetings to attend. This at least is true. ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
You have it just about right running dogg. Good collection of points here.
running dogg wrote: Li Changchun wrote: "uncle arnie" wrote How much western debt does China hold? I think it is quite high, particularly for the USA. This would mean grave economic problems for the west if China is "on the verge of collapse". Hardly, in case of a China banking collapse financial arrangements can always be made. We are talking about paper after all. Not gold bullion. Perhaps WalMart stock will collapse but the $US always rallys in times of serious worldwide calamity. The Chinese $Yuan may become worthless. The Chinese are currently financing the US government. They hold a BIG chunk of US debt. The West has shifted all its manufacturing facilities to China so in the event of a China collapse there might be serious shortages of most goods. I think your hatred of the CCP has blinded you to the serious implications of a potential China collapse. As for N Korea, they are so disconnected from the world, no-one would notice except for those of us who like the comedy of their SW broadcasts. You are seriously mistaken. If the hermit kingdom collapses there will be a human tragedy on the peninsula. The economic costs to S.Korea will be worse than what Germany has had to endure since the fall of the Berlin wall. Assuming hoards of refugees begin to cross the DMZ. Which is very likely. The DMZ is the most fortified border on earth. The North Koreans have gone to great lengths to make sure that nobody crosses. I'm not so sure that hordes of refugees will be flooding across. Then there is the geo-political question. Will China invade N.Korea and claim its territory for repayment of decades of economic support? Or will China allow a free and Democratic state to prosper on its economically suffering Northeast border with the peninsula? If so it would be a first as well as a strategic blow to the Communist regime in Beijing. I don't think you'd see a democracy spring up in NK. They've had 60 years of harsh Stalinist rule. You'd more likely see a situation like in Afghanistan before the Taliban, with a lot of local party bosses becoming warlords and establishing fiefdoms. China may send troops to ensure "stability". But I don't think China will invade South Korea. The US is a major trading partner for China; the CCP is NOT going to start a nuclear war with the US in the name of Communism. China historically prefers weak, non-threatening regimes as neighbors and works to maintain its supremacy over all its immediate neighbors. Korean history extends into what is now Northeast China. There are Korean claims to these lands. China is well aware of these claims and has summarily rewrote its history books in an attempt to erase these claims. The best scenario for the West would be if one collapses immediately followed by the other. Neither regime would stand which is why China will not pressure N.Korea in regard to nuclear negotiations. China can very easily resolve the nuclear issue since all of N.Korea's energy comes from China. Simply turn off a spigot and flick the big switch and Kim Jong Il is complete history. If China thinks they can keep Kim from nuking Seoul, they may be sadly mistaken. Unlike the massive bureaucracy that Communism has become in China, in NK Kim is the end all and be all of government. He is totally cut off from the rest of the world and lives in a dream world and is much more likely to start a war with the US to "free" SK. If the US is forced to invade NK because of Kim, the US will likely reach a quid pro quo with the Chinese, keeping the Yalu River as the boundary between US and Chinese troops. The mutual trade between China and the US means that all out war between the two is not likely, even if China invades Taiwan. The US establishment is not willing to have a nuclear war over Taiwan or Korea. Li Changchun wrote: junk snipped N.Korea N. Korea launches harsh crackdown (interesting read) http://interestalert.com/brand/sitei...02aaa05d83.upi &Sys=rmmiller&Fid=WORLDNEW&Type=News&Filter=World% 20News __________________________________________________ __ Enjoy the Voice of Korea propaganda in English: 0100-0200 Z 11735 13760 15180 kHz to N.America 1000-1100 Z 9335 9850 kHz to N.America 1300-1400 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1500-1600 Z 9335 11710 kHz to N.America 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 1800-1900 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe 2100-2200 Z 4405 7570 12015 kHz to Europe __________________________________________________ ____________ ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 01:52:19 -0000, "* Dr. Artaud *"
wrote: "Li Changchun" wrote in : Ah, I see that you do post. Sorry for the confusion. I look at a specific number of posts, either by poster or subject, and I have not remembered your posts. Excellent article on Propaganda at Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Coincidentally, it has a North Korean Poster at the top of the page. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda Can you tell us what it says? Regretfully, my understanding of non-English languages is nil, I mean no offense by my request, I am just curious if you can read it. Regards Dr. Artaud Roughly as follows, and since it takes effort to translate the manga histronics of the slogans I probably won't do more or comment more about anything beyond this email unless radio related. Top slogan: Against oppression -- a mighty blow i.e., smash US's oppression of us with a crushing assualt or strike Bottom: Against castigation -- ruthless beating, i.e., merciless punishment for the way we are derided and treated. These are Chinese character derived so although simple syllables are saturated with varied meanings that cannot be simply translated into another language except Chinese or Japanese.. By the way, North Koreans live and breathe these slogans. They fervently believe them and will gladly die for them, especially the troops and average person. . |
"running dogg" wrote
What you are likely to see in China is the collapse of their banks, which are already insolvent and technically bankrupt, and the disentigration of the CCP. Neither of which will likely spell the end of their manufacturing base. In the very short term there may be disruptions but it would quickly recover and without the CCPoverhead possibly become much more robust. Possibly. But China has a tradition of warlord rule, and for much of its history has been broken into feuding fiefdoms, despite the common culture and language of the Chinese people. Then again, the same situation persisted in Italy for a thousand years, and that country is now stable and prosperous. China has been under the CCP's vicious rule for over half a century. There are very few to zero individuals still alive in China who are even remotely aware of its pre-CCP history - they have been brainwashed. Very few individuals in any sense of power know anything else but CCP burocracy let alone some type of organized civil war. The argument that the CCP provides "stability" and the people would succumb to civil warfare is warn out CCP propaganda. If anything, a collapse of the CCP form of government would bring the nation together to rebuild a more Democratic form of government. Chinese people are not ignorant pheasants like many seem to make them out to be. Take a look at your University and its graduate and PHD students, especially in the math & sciences. I willing to bet that a significant percentage are Taiwanese or mainland Chinese. Granted, a large majority still live very poorly in the countryside. But today, the average urban citizen is fairly worldly considering the amount of censorship in media. Please review the circumstances that revolved around Tiananmen Square in 1989 and please tell me if what you have seen there looked anything like a civil war? It wasn't even close and the military came out with blood all over them. This give credence to the propaganda about "stability" and its irrelevence to China today. I think your hatred of the CCP has blinded you to the serious implications of a potential China collapse. Your love of the CCP has seriously blinded you to a brutal murderous regime which is deeply hated by their own people. You seem to make this same curious error over and over again, equating any concern about China's stability and potential disruptions to the west if that stability were to be disrupted with love of the CCP. You seem to have swallowed the CCP propaganda hook, line and sinker. The CCP keeps spouting this same B.S. over and over again. I guess if it is repeated often enough people, like you, will believe it. This is a big insult to the Chinese people. The Chinese people don't need the CCP. In fact the opposite is true! I doubt most westerners love the CCP, I sure don't. But it's the only thing holding the country together. Like I said, China has a long, bloody history of warlordism and civil war, and any collapse of the CCP might bring a return to the bad old days. This bad situation-a brutal dictatorship being the only thing keeping the world's most populous country from sliding into chaos-is exacerbated greatly by the fact that China now has virtually ALL of the world's industrial capacity. There is no more industrial base in America, Europe, Japan. It's all been moved to China. I'm sorry old boy, but this is pure garbage and sounds very much like what is written in the CCP run newspapers in Beijing - I'm not joking. There are many able countries that will quikely and happilly "tool up" to fill American orders for product. Prices may rise but to what degree will be determined by the marketplace as it should. That assumes that there will be some kind of collapse of its manufacturing base. That is highly unlikely considering the involvement of western interests and western company presence. If China descends into chaos the rest of the world will go with it. Blame your beloved capitalists for being too willing to cozy up to a regime that could be toppled by a mass movement like Falun Gong and that allows massive pollution and 10 cent a day wages. Ah ha! Now you are talking! Those big bad Capitalists again. LOL I'll go on a political limb here and will tell you this much. Had dear leader Nixon and Kissinger NOT reproached Deng Xiaoping to "open up", the USSR would still be in existence today. Why? Because the USSR would likely be profiting from China's growth all this time. Albeit not as robust. Deng Xiaoping knew China had to open up to avoid an economic disaster that we now see in N.Korea. If the US wasn't economically friendly with China it would have looked elsewhere and anywhere to accomplish this economic goal. China would have solicited economic development from any CCP friendly country including our enemies. N.Korea is an example of this idea - selling missile technology (from China likely) to Pakistan, Iran and Syria. Money counterfeiting and drug trafficking to name a few. Hardly a comforting alternative to the west. Nixon and Kissinger knew this and made a brilliant move by isolating the USSR. *** The idea to engage China is a valid one. However, the moral and ethical degree to which this engagement has progressed by the Capitalists is now questionable in my opinion. *** I think that there is now some realization of this within the US House and Senate. If the N.Korean side of the DMZ becomes demilitarized because of a regime colapse you can be sure that waves of refugees will find a way across or around it. China would also see refugees. Maybe to start with there would be a lot of North Koreans attempting to cross, but it might die down after a while. There was no massive refugee crisis when European Communism collapsed. Most of the East Germans who fled into West Berlin right after the wall came down eventually went back home. I would suspect that after a reunification on the peninsula the phenomenon will likely repeat itself there. Unemployment will rise and the deficit will rise. It will be a difficult time for the Koreans but not impossible. ref: Germany. I didn't say that another centralized dictatorship would take hold, I said that the country would descend into warlord rule and possibly civil war. There is a difference. After a reconsiliation with the South I highly doubt there will be widespread civil unrest. These people have been under Dear Leaders thumb for a very long time and would have very little resources or even a will to pull it off. But I don't think that it would trigger a western invasion of NK. There won't be a "military" invasion. There will likely be some kind of Korean - Chinese - Japanese - Russian & US cooperation with UN involvment and guidance. Has it occured to you that whomever overthrows Kim Jong Il may well be "friendly" with the South? You're assuming that a pro Western ruler replaces Kim. But I'm saying that no ruler may replace Kim, that NK would break up instead, and that would likely be much worse than a pro West regime in the North being toppled by the Chinese. What I am saying is that there is some evidence of certain elements in the N.Korean military which would like to remove Dear Leader. These elements seem to be aware of N.Korea's economic predicament and are more willing to reproach the south with fewer conditions than Dear Leader impresses. As I said earlier the Dear Leader is a proxy, puppet if you will, of China. It is certainly clear. As China has all the strings neccessary to "pull the plug" on Dear Leader but refuses to do so as evidenced in the latest "round of talks". This is clear indication of a certain level of resistance within the CCP towards a pro-South reunification outcome. A reminder - recall the recent massive railroad station explosion which occured within hours after the Dear Leaders return from Beijing. The Dear Leader is afraid to fly! Should make you ponder. It's possible, but there would be enough loyalists to go ahead with the Bomb drop and force a US invasion. In which case the US would have a green light - not something China wishes to contend with I am sure you will agree. In any case, nuclear weapons aside, the Korean peninsular would become the immediate focus of attention in the West and Beijing and Seoul would have many urgent and pressing meetings to attend. This at least is true. |
A reminder - recall the recent massive railroad station explosion near
Pyongyang which occured within hours after the Dear Leader had passed through that very same railroad station upon his return from Beijing. The Dear Leader is afraid to fly! Should make you ponder. |
I did some flying in some fixed wing Aircraft and Helicopters when I was
in the Army,but I didn't like it.(the flying,that is) So,I guess I am afraid of flying too.My feet are meant for staying on the ground. cuhulin |
H. Dziardziel wrote in
: Thanks for the translation. I had no chance in obtaining it otherwise, as I don't even have the fonts necessary to express it for the online translation sites, let alone that the sentences are part of an image and not text available for copy to the clipboard. Regards. Dr. Artaud Roughly as follows, and since it takes effort to translate the manga histronics of the slogans I probably won't do more or comment more about anything beyond this email unless radio related. Top slogan: Against oppression -- a mighty blow i.e., smash US's oppression of us with a crushing assualt or strike Bottom: Against castigation -- ruthless beating, i.e., merciless punishment for the way we are derided and treated. These are Chinese character derived so although simple syllables are saturated with varied meanings that cannot be simply translated into another language except Chinese or Japanese.. By the way, North Koreans live and breathe these slogans. They fervently believe them and will gladly die for them, especially the troops and average person. . |
All this talk of China and North Korea collapse is becoming crap.
5 years ago, i might have believed it (i even took a brief look at the book by some Gordon... talking about China's impending collapse), but looking at the way progress is going on in both North Korea and China, it will be irrational to believe in a collapse. Economic reforms will always satisfy a greater proportion of the population than political reforms. Just look at the case of Singapore, where there is less political freedom than even China, where people can't join another political party without destroying their lives and career, where the country is ruled by one family, but 50,000 Americans live happily as expatriates in the country, and hundreds of American companies, like HP and Exxon have billion dollar factories in the country. If anyone wants to champion freedom, first talk about Singapore and its American allies. Virtually no one in Singapore, local (myself included) or foriegner is interested in political freedom at the expense of money and livelihood. This is a fact of life. |
HELL,LET THEM COLLASPE!
cuhulin |
singapore TOO!
cuhulin |
hp? You mean hewlett packard? LET THEM COLLASPE TOO! That Bitch! carly
fiorina who used to be a big hotshot at hewlett packard once said Americans do not have a right to have jobs. cuhulin |
No one will collapse, because America needs free trade and to enforce
IP rights more than ideology. The massive Chinese market for American exports is more important than any ideology. Money wins at the end of the day. I visited China first in 1990 when economic reforms just started, and everywhere was drab. The next time i returned was 13 years later, and it has become a different country. You can view the development in smaller Chinese cities - a proud chinese put up city photos of some 200 Chinese cities - http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=175183 (Take note of traffic as well). Assuming that each city has a population of 2 million, that covers 400 million people. World media (especially American media such as CNN) do not show the reality of what is happening in China...It's time for education. |
I visited China twice in 1964.At Hong Kong Airport,our Airplane (Pan Am
Blueball) picked up some passengers and refueled and again about six months later,my five days R&R in Hong Kong and I got me some Chinese pussy too.Free trade,nafta,gatt,outsourcing,that's a lot of what is wrong with Ameica now.LET THEM MOTHER****ERS COLLASPE! cuhulin |
**** them Chinese Cities!!!!
cuhulin |
wrote in message ... **** them Chinese Cities!!!! YEAH! After all, they're filled to the brim with slanty eyed slope chinks! |
American bosses benefit - Walmart, KFC, McDonalds', Boeing, GM make
plenty of money in both directions in China by hiring low cost peasant labour, and selling to both chinese in cities and exporting to America, while American workers lose out. Maybe, America should turn socialist, so businesses can be (partially) nationalized, and profits can be redistributed to every common worker. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english...ent_395728.htm |
|
Maybe,America should turn socialist? DAMN!!!!!! LET THEM DAMN!!!!!!!!
CHINKS COLLASPE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! cuhulin |
For Over TWO HUNDRED YEARS AMERICANS HAVE FOUGHT AND BLED AND DIED
FIGHTING FOR SOMETHING YOU CAN NEVER! UNDERSTAND! AND YOU! WILL NEVER! UNDERSTAND! FREEDOM!!!!!!! YOU,YOU SON OF A BITCH CHINK OR WHATEVER YOU ARE! YOU GO TO HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! cuhulin U.S.A. |
NUTS!!!
cuhulin |
Telamon wrote:
In article .com, wrote: American bosses benefit - Walmart, KFC, McDonalds', Boeing, GM make plenty of money in both directions in China by hiring low cost peasant labour, and selling to both chinese in cities and exporting to America, while American workers lose out. Maybe, America should turn socialist, so businesses can be (partially) nationalized, and profits can be redistributed to every common worker. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english...ent_395728.htm I have a better idea. Why don't you buy some stock in a company and participate in capitalism. Make the right decisions and you will make money instead of just coveting what someone else has. Stock, bah humbug. Start your OWN business and employ dozens of people who work at making YOU rich! Then invest in real estate and watch the rent money roll in from people who are too clueless to buy/own a house. If Sam Walton could make $100 billion by breaking every labor law in the book, and Bill Gates could make $50 billion by writing buggy software, imagine how much YOU could make by starting a business that makes something that people actually WANT to buy! It's called capitalism, and when it works, it kicks commie ass. And it doesn't take a genius to make a fortune, either. Just build a business using ONE original idea, and the rest falls into place if you know how to work the system. I know that a single original idea is beyond the thinking capabilities of most people, which is why 90% of the world's wealth is in 10% of the world's hands. Why buy stock when you can start a company that ISSUES it? ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
In article , running dogg wrote:
Telamon wrote: In article .com, wrote: American bosses benefit - Walmart, KFC, McDonalds', Boeing, GM make plenty of money in both directions in China by hiring low cost peasant labour, and selling to both chinese in cities and exporting to America, while American workers lose out. Maybe, America should turn socialist, so businesses can be (partially) nationalized, and profits can be redistributed to every common worker. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english...ent_395728.htm I have a better idea. Why don't you buy some stock in a company and participate in capitalism. Make the right decisions and you will make money instead of just coveting what someone else has. Stock, bah humbug. Start your OWN business and employ dozens of people who work at making YOU rich! Then invest in real estate and watch the rent money roll in from people who are too clueless to buy/own a house. If Sam Walton could make $100 billion by breaking every labor law in the book, and Bill Gates could make $50 billion by writing buggy software, imagine how much YOU could make by starting a business that makes something that people actually WANT to buy! It's called capitalism, and when it works, it kicks commie ass. And it doesn't take a genius to make a fortune, either. Just build a business using ONE original idea, and the rest falls into place if you know how to work the system. I know that a single original idea is beyond the thinking capabilities of most people, which is why 90% of the world's wealth is in 10% of the world's hands. Why buy stock when you can start a company that ISSUES it? Then go do it. Start your own company or buy stock in another. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
Freedom is a nice but not available to everyone. Even in America,
there is no individual freedom to live when the judges want a person to die - http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/26/schiavo/index.html. What right do the judges have to solely decide whether a person lives or die when a person has not commited any crime? This is something people outside America cannot understand. In any event, America's real enemy is not China, or even India. For at least 3000 years, these 2 people had been traders, capitalists, and politicians, but never serious military aggressors. Even if they are to exceed America economically, i doubt they are interested in military dominance beyond self-protection. I'm no history expert, but can list some of the people that have been aggressors in history. 1. Mongolians (Genghis) 2. Huns 3. Greeks (Alexander) 4. Vikings 5. Celts 6. British (India, Burma, South East Asia, Opium War) 7. Germans (WWII, WWI) 8. Japanese (WWII, Taiwan, Korea occupation, Boxer uprising, China) 9. Italians (WWII and Roman Empire) 10. USA (Boxer uprising, China) 11. France (Napolean) 12. Russia (Past Soviet states) 13. Many African nations 14. Thailand (Neighbouring states) 15. Burma (against Thailand) |
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