BBC on science/evolution teaching in the USA
 

Surprised by this story from 23Mar on BBC ~0400 UTC on 5975. Discussed a
school board in Pennsylvania which wanted to teach "creationism" in the
guise of "intelligent design", which sounds like spin on creationism. They
suggested that fundamentalists are trying to do this all over America. Is
this so? Is scientific understanding really this poor? The accepted
understanding is: evolution is a "scientific theory", which does not mean
'theory' in the everyday sense. That evolution occurred is a fact, only
the details are being worked out, which is the testable scientific theory
part. And there is no contradiction between evolution and religious faith.

uncle arnie wrote:

Surprised by this story from 23Mar on BBC ~0400 UTC on 5975. Discussed a
school board in Pennsylvania which wanted to teach "creationism" in the
guise of "intelligent design", which sounds like spin on creationism. They
suggested that fundamentalists are trying to do this all over America. Is
this so? Is scientific understanding really this poor? The accepted
understanding is: evolution is a "scientific theory", which does not mean
'theory' in the everyday sense. That evolution occurred is a fact, only
the details are being worked out, which is the testable scientific theory
part. And there is no contradiction between evolution and religious faith.
Yep, the fundies have taken control of America, of all three branches of
government and many of the school boards and so on, and they're more
intent on saving souls than reality, and when reality clashes with the
Bible it's reality that gets thrown out the window. Go to Amazon and
order the book "With God On Their Side" by Esther Kaplan; it shows how
the fundies have gotten government to fund religion in direct
contradiction of the First Amendment, how they've warped science to fit
predetermined Biblical conclusions, and how they have the support of the
majority of Americans to do all this. In this world, Islam is evil, Jews
are "uncompleted Christians", and 9-11 was God's punishment for
America's wickedness. The solution: convert Muslims and Jews and
legislate morality at home to force people to be righteous. If you're
not scared yet, you haven't been paying attention.


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"uncle arnie" wrote in message
...

And there is no contradiction between evolution and religious faith.

Try telling that to the rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth fundies... with them,
it's gotta be either/or. Either you believe in creationism as set forth in
the Bible, or you're a hellbound evolutionist heathen that's in league with
the Antichrist. I'm not specifically picking on Christians here, but their
fundie subgroups are the ones who seem to be making the most noise about
this. Yet I know lots of Christians who believe in evolution. They don't
seem to see any real reason why they can't believe in both God and
evolution.

This whole "intelligent design" thing is just a ploy by the fundies to make
creationism (their version, of course) somehow more palatable to school
boards. To which I say, if you don't like the fact that public schools can't
espouse any particular religious teaching, then send your kids to a
parochial school or home-school them.

I don't profess to know if the universe was 'created' in the Biblical sense.
Being an amateur astronomer, I admit that I have looked up on many more than
a few occasions at the grandeur of the night sky and wondered how it all got
there. But the cosmologists don't have all the answers either. No one does.

Jackie
"Believe those who seek the truth... and doubt those who claim to have found
it"

Buzzygirl wrote:


"uncle arnie" wrote in message
...

And there is no contradiction between evolution and religious faith.

Try telling that to the rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth fundies... with them,
it's gotta be either/or. Either you believe in creationism as set forth in
the Bible, or you're a hellbound evolutionist heathen that's in league with
the Antichrist. I'm not specifically picking on Christians here, but their
fundie subgroups are the ones who seem to be making the most noise about
this. Yet I know lots of Christians who believe in evolution. They don't
seem to see any real reason why they can't believe in both God and
evolution.

This whole "intelligent design" thing is just a ploy by the fundies to make
creationism (their version, of course) somehow more palatable to school
boards. To which I say, if you don't like the fact that public schools can't
espouse any particular religious teaching, then send your kids to a
parochial school or home-school them.

Increasing numbers of fundie parents are doing just that. However, I
wonder what kids homeschooled in Biblical literalism and then educated
in fundie universities in "Biblical Science" will do with themselves
once they find out that they have zero skills and are unemployable not
only because they haven't been correctly educated but they tend to
"witness" (preach) their fundie-ism all the time at everybody they meet.
What will happen when their prospective employer questions their fundie
education and their response is "REPENT, ye minion of Satan! How DARE
you question the Words of God?" Uh, don't call us, we'll call you. Saudi
Arabia shows what happens when religion based education runs amok-most
Saudi university graduates are schooled in Islamic literalism and are
utterly unemployable by the big oil firms. The government's attempt to
"Saudi-ize" the foreigner-run oil firms has met with abject failure,
because thousands of Saudis are graduating school able to recite the
Quran and spout the "correct" interpretations but do little else. This
results in masses of unemployable young men with nothing to do, always a
bad omen for any society. And the government has given too much power to
the imams who are more interested in saving souls than in actual
education. The US isn't there-yet-but it's headed in that direction.


I don't profess to know if the universe was 'created' in the Biblical sense.
Being an amateur astronomer, I admit that I have looked up on many more than
a few occasions at the grandeur of the night sky and wondered how it all got
there. But the cosmologists don't have all the answers either. No one does.

Jackie
"Believe those who seek the truth... and doubt those who claim to have found
it"




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Buzzygirl wrote:


"uncle arnie" wrote in message
...

And there is no contradiction between evolution and religious faith.

Try telling that to the rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth fundies... with them,
it's gotta be either/or. Either you believe in creationism as set forth in
the Bible, or you're a hellbound evolutionist heathen that's in league
with the Antichrist. I'm not specifically picking on Christians here, but
their fundie subgroups are the ones who seem to be making the most noise
about this. Yet I know lots of Christians who believe in evolution. They
don't seem to see any real reason why they can't believe in both God and
evolution.

This whole "intelligent design" thing is just a ploy by the fundies to
make creationism (their version, of course) somehow more palatable to
school boards. To which I say, if you don't like the fact that public
schools can't espouse any particular religious teaching, then send your
kids to a parochial school or home-school them.

My children are getting a science education at school including evolution in
high school, and they get their church at church. Curriculums here are set
by the province. I'm just an observer on this.

I don't profess to know if the universe was 'created' in the Biblical
sense. Being an amateur astronomer, I admit that I have looked up on many
more than a few occasions at the grandeur of the night sky and wondered
how it all got there. But the cosmologists don't have all the answers
either. No one does.

Which is pretty much where every thinking person is at.

Jackie
"Believe those who seek the truth... and doubt those who claim to have
found it"

In article ,
uncle arnie wrote:
Surprised by this story from 23Mar on BBC ~0400 UTC on 5975. Discussed a
school board in Pennsylvania which wanted to teach "creationism" in the
guise of "intelligent design", which sounds like spin on creationism. They
suggested that fundamentalists are trying to do this all over America. Is
this so? Is scientific understanding really this poor? The accepted
understanding is: evolution is a "scientific theory", which does not mean
'theory' in the everyday sense. That evolution occurred is a fact, only
the details are being worked out, which is the testable scientific theory
part. And there is no contradiction between evolution and religious faith.

It's not a matter of poor understanding, it's a deliberate program of
mis-education.

One of the major techniques for the right wing political machine in
America is jamming. Like jamming in the radio spectrum, jamming in the
ideological spectrum consists of dropping a loud signal on top of another
program and hoping that the listening population gets so confused that
they can't hear the original signal.

Most of these anti-experts are employed by various think tanks
where their income is safe from considerations of peer review, tenure,
and any real debate about their ideas. One of the major sources of the
anti-evolution propaganda is the Discovery Institute here in Seattle.

From there, they get equal time on the major media (who is either
owned by the part of the machine, or are intimidated into accepting this
pseudo-expertise). Other channels to the public come from feeding ideas
to the conservative churches and their educational affiliates.

The point is to destroy the reputation of expertise that the real experts
have so that the public is scared or confused and more vulnerable to
the PR/propaganda at election time.

The current example is the doctor that Jed Bush dug out from under a
rock who's claiming that Mrs. Shiavo isn't a vegetable. But there are
other partisan science whores that specialize in atmospheric science
and evolution. (Hey, those oil companies pay good money and you don't
have to go to the bother of teaching those nasty students).

Mark Zenier Washington State resident

School is supposed to teach you proven facts in the real world, not
personal religious idealogues that are just based on faith and nothing
else.

RO,

+ Facts about the World Around Us.
[Religion is a "Very Real" Fact in the World Around Us]

Religion is real, but as a "fact" it is a human construct. Yes, there
are religions - many, all of whom have equal claims to the notion that
theirs is the correct one - but they are all human constructs.
Mythology exists as a part of human sociology, but that does not make
its content factual.

There may be a place for religion in school - if so, it is in the
social studies area, where human charateristics are examined. It is
certainly not in science class. Religion cannot, by its nature, be a
science; it is not even a theory by any accepted definition. In all
its forms, religion is a cultural phenomenon.

This has nothing to do with whether or not God exists or has
omnipotence over the universe. That is purely a matter of faith, and
is up to the individual. It has to do with whether schools are
suitable for passing on cultural or mythological beliefs as fact, which
they are not. That is what shortwave radio is for ;-)

Bruce Jensen

On 24 Mar 2005 14:17:10 -0800, "RHF"
wrote:

RO,
.
You have a limited vision about "The Role"
of the Public Schools in American Society.
+ The Three "R"s Reading, wRiting and aRithmetic :o)
+ The Sciences and Our Natural Surroundings.
+ Facts about the World Around Us.
[Religion is a "Very Real" Fact in the World Around Us]
+ History of Our Nation and the World.
[Religion is a "Vital Part" of the History of Our Nation
and the World.]
+ Traditions of Our Nation and Society.
[Religion is an "Integral Facet" of Our Nation and Society.]
.
Supported and Guided by a Locally Elected Public School Board
that Reflects and Represents the Values of the Community.
.
the wholly secular public school is a myth of the liberals ~ RHF
.
.


Dear Friends:

Please don't feed the trolls.

Thanks,

Al in CNMI

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RHF wrote:

RO,
.
You have a limited vision about "The Role"
of the Public Schools in American Society.
+ The Three "R"s Reading, wRiting and aRithmetic :o)
+ The Sciences and Our Natural Surroundings.
+ Facts about the World Around Us.
[Religion is a "Very Real" Fact in the World Around Us]
+ History of Our Nation and the World.
[Religion is a "Vital Part" of the History of Our Nation
and the World.]
+ Traditions of Our Nation and Society.
[Religion is an "Integral Facet" of Our Nation and Society.]
.
Supported and Guided by a Locally Elected Public School Board
that Reflects and Represents the Values of the Community.
.
the wholly secular public school is a myth of the liberals ~ RHF
.
.
Teaching comparative religion = okay in a class devoted to philosophical and
religious issues. Also in history and social studies classes. Not okay to
teach non-science in a science class. Evolution belongs in science class,
religion does not.

Can't say I understand why you've introduced the term "liberal" here.
Secularism is a general trend in western countries, including those who are
socially and politically conservative and liberal.

On 24/03/2005 5:28 PM, bpnjensen wrote:
+ Facts about the World Around Us.

[Religion is a "Very Real" Fact in the World Around Us]

Religion is real, but as a "fact" it is a human construct. Yes, there
are religions - many, all of whom have equal claims to the notion that
theirs is the correct one - but they are all human constructs.
Mythology exists as a part of human sociology, but that does not make
its content factual.

There may be a place for religion in school - if so, it is in the
social studies area, where human charateristics are examined. It is
certainly not in science class. Religion cannot, by its nature, be a
science; it is not even a theory by any accepted definition. In all
its forms, religion is a cultural phenomenon.

This has nothing to do with whether or not God exists or has
omnipotence over the universe. That is purely a matter of faith, and
is up to the individual. It has to do with whether schools are
suitable for passing on cultural or mythological beliefs as fact, which
they are not. That is what shortwave radio is for ;-)

Well said.

To extend your last paragraph, it should be noted that science is not
contrary to faith, and is not about "disproving" religious ideas.
Science and faith are, by definition, completely separate paradigms that
have little to inform the other. The mere existence of science does not
minimize the importance of faith, and vice-versa. However, ideas like
"intelligent design" attempt to explain notions based on faith using the
parts of science that fit, and throwing away the parts that don't.

Science cannot be used to prove or disprove the existence of a divine
creator. If god or gods have created the universe, space and time, and
all the natural phenomena that people have observed in a scientific way
over the centuries, there would be no way for science to factually
determine this.

However, this was never the aim of science, so it should not be expected
to do so.

Theories about the nature of the universe are constantly revised as we
learn more provable (or disprovable) facts. This does not change
observed phenomena at all.

To make a more apropos comment with respect to this newsgroup, we do not
understand, in some fundamental ways, how radio waves and electricity
function. We have many theories about the fundamental nature of how
radio waves propagate and electricity turns RF into sound, and we've
developed a huge body of evidence that has well-understood technical
applications (i.e., a shortwave radio.) However, if one examines the
theories of electromagnetic physics there are still questions regarding
how it works at some fundamental level. Theories still abound on how,
exactly, these things we call electrons (the nature of which is still
being discussed) "move" (or don't move) through a conductor.

However, even if these theories change, or are revised, or contested
over the years, this does not change the fact that our radios still work
the same way we expect them to. We've learned a lot about radio and
electronics in the last century. This does not change a whit how well
your crystal radio set works.

The notion that radio, or even evolution, is somehow "just" a theory is
not the point. Theories are frameworks upon which we hang observed
behaviour in order to better understand it. Even if the theories are
revised to take into account new observed behaviour that contradicts
some aspect of the theory, the worlds still works in the same (poorly
understood or not) way.

This, in fact, is the great strength of rational though, of which
science is the best example.

Thanks for listening.

-- clvrmnky