Did The Grundig 800 Kill Off The Drake R8?
 

Your thoughts?

TMT

Your question didn't provoke any thoughts at all in me. I just can't
imagine why you'd think that these two receivers are at all
comparable...and that's saying something, seeing as how I just got back
from a Sat 800 reeducation camp in Upstate New York.

Darn it, now I have to call in and report myself again. The beds in
those places are really uncomfortable, too...and the screaming from
various cells really starts to get to me after awhile.

Steve

Don't let the bed bugs bite.
cuhulin

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
Your thoughts?

TMT

That's akin to suggesting the VW bug killed off the Porsche 911 Targa
or otherwise. No comparision between the two.

David(N)

I would think there is....

One is still selling...the other is discontinued.

One made money for the company...the other did not.

One is the sign of the future...the other is the echo of the past.

There is likely to be a Grundig 900...there is no chance there will be
a R9.

Did the Grundig 800 kill off the Drake R8?

Maybe or maybe not...but the buying patterns of SWLers definitely did.

TMT

On 26 Apr 2005 09:28:51 -0700, "Too_Many_Tools"
wrote:

I would think there is....

One is still selling...the other is discontinued.

One made money for the company...the other did not.

One is the sign of the future...the other is the echo of the past.

There is likely to be a Grundig 900...there is no chance there will be
a R9.

Did the Grundig 800 kill off the Drake R8?

Maybe or maybe not...but the buying patterns of SWLers definitely did.

TMT

The era of the HF program listener is rapidly waning. Any demand for
the Drake synchronous detector is easily satisfied by the
Eton/Grundigs. This, in my case, is almost 100% MWDX program
listening after dark. As far as UTE monitoring goes, the sync detector
is useless.

For me, the R-75 works just as well for listening to airplanes, and it
costs about a third of what an R8B costs.

TMT - In a word No !

Good points...does this mean other high end receivers are soon to
disappear?

Another simple question that would seem hard to answer...why are radio
clubs closing and SWL dying out?

I do know that ham fests are a shadow of what they used to be.

I have not been to Dayton for awhile...is it also dying out?

TMT

I just wish they could have finished the alphabet....like maybe a R8Z?
;)))

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" ) writes:
Good points...does this mean other high end receivers are soon to
disappear?

When I was a kid, back in 1971, there was talk that shortwave listening
was dying, so it seems a constant.

What I really think we've seen is a mainstreaming of shortwave listening
in recent years or decades. Thirty years ago, except for real cheap
stuff, shortwave receivers were made by specialized manufacturers, and
sold in specialized outlets, like the local ham store. It tended to
be, at least in North America, a hobby more interested in hearing
distant stations, with the actual contents of the broadcast secondary.
That's a generalization, and I gather doesn't apply as much to elsewhere
in the world.

But in recent years and decades, manufacturers known to consumers have
been making shortwave receivers, companies like Sony. You'd be able
to buy these at any place that carried a good line of Sony equipment.
The equipment has also gotten easier to use, what with digital tuning and
even the small size of the equipment. I suppose there has always been
those not really expensive radios that included a shortwave band, but
now we have better equipment to reach the type who'd traditionally bought
those. But I suspect the equipment has brought in a range of people
who were interested first in the broadcast contents. They may find
that it's not so great (all that fading), or find that hearing
news broadcasts from Switzerland isn't more informative than CNN, or
to use the bogey, they'll find that listening to those foreign
broadcasts over the internet is easier.

If that new breed of listener fades away, you still remain with
the hobbyist type, who were there all along.

High end receivers tend to be for a very small percentage of the population,
and traditionally had use in commercial activity, so I would think
they'd still exist. It's the mass market types that are likely to
fade away if there's not enough demand, though on the other hand if
you can get a digitally tuned shortwave receiver for fifty dollars it's
hard to believe those will disappear.

Another simple question that would seem hard to answer...why are radio
clubs closing and SWL dying out?

I do know that ham fests are a shadow of what they used to be.

One thing is that the hobbies aren't out there in the public view.
When I was a kid, I learned about amateur radio from an article
in a magazine for those involved in scouting here in Canada. Indeed,
if I'm remembering, there was an article about DXing the broadcast
band, and someone wrote in about amateur radio. I also recall an
article about amateur radio in "HIghlights For Children" though
it might have been "Jack and Jill". Then I found the hobby electronic
magazines, this was 1971, and they still had plenty of material about
amateur radio and shortwave listening.

Now, I barely see notice of the local club's hamfest. It's not
used as an excuse to get the hobby into the public eye, promoting
it in ham circles is seen as good enough.

So the hobbies likely are not reaching the young, who have the
interest and time to immerse themselves in a hobby. And even if
it was being done, I'm not certain the message is what's needed
to lure the young into the hobby. There was something very appealing
about amateur radio when I was ten, but I'm not certain it would appeal
to me if I learned of it at my present age. You can recite how
amateur radio is helpful to society, but I'm not sure that entices
people. You need to convey an excitement, and I don't see that happening.
You also, if you want the young, to be reaching them in a fashion that
actually reaches them. While I'm not sure how to do that at age 45,
I don't think it's done by talking down, or trying to be "hip" without
succeeding. It has to be done by remembering what it was like when you
were that age, rather than decades older when some of the magic is gone.

Michael


I have not been to Dayton for awhile...is it also dying out?

TMT

Michael Black wrote:
"Too_Many_Tools" ) writes:

Good points...does this mean other high end receivers are soon to
disappear?


When I was a kid, back in 1971, there was talk that shortwave listening
was dying, so it seems a constant.

What I really think we've seen is a mainstreaming of shortwave listening
in recent years or decades. Thirty years ago, except for real cheap
stuff, shortwave receivers were made by specialized manufacturers, and
sold in specialized outlets, like the local ham store. It tended to
be, at least in North America, a hobby more interested in hearing
distant stations, with the actual contents of the broadcast secondary.
That's a generalization, and I gather doesn't apply as much to elsewhere
in the world.

But in recent years and decades, manufacturers known to consumers have
been making shortwave receivers, companies like Sony. You'd be able
to buy these at any place that carried a good line of Sony equipment.
The equipment has also gotten easier to use, what with digital tuning and
even the small size of the equipment. I suppose there has always been
those not really expensive radios that included a shortwave band, but
now we have better equipment to reach the type who'd traditionally bought
those. But I suspect the equipment has brought in a range of people
who were interested first in the broadcast contents. They may find
that it's not so great (all that fading), or find that hearing
news broadcasts from Switzerland isn't more informative than CNN, or
to use the bogey, they'll find that listening to those foreign
broadcasts over the internet is easier.

If that new breed of listener fades away, you still remain with
the hobbyist type, who were there all along.

High end receivers tend to be for a very small percentage of the population,
and traditionally had use in commercial activity, so I would think
they'd still exist. It's the mass market types that are likely to
fade away if there's not enough demand, though on the other hand if
you can get a digitally tuned shortwave receiver for fifty dollars it's
hard to believe those will disappear.


Another simple question that would seem hard to answer...why are radio
clubs closing and SWL dying out?

I do know that ham fests are a shadow of what they used to be.


One thing is that the hobbies aren't out there in the public view.
When I was a kid, I learned about amateur radio from an article
in a magazine for those involved in scouting here in Canada. Indeed,
if I'm remembering, there was an article about DXing the broadcast
band, and someone wrote in about amateur radio. I also recall an
article about amateur radio in "HIghlights For Children" though
it might have been "Jack and Jill". Then I found the hobby electronic
magazines, this was 1971, and they still had plenty of material about
amateur radio and shortwave listening.

Now, I barely see notice of the local club's hamfest. It's not
used as an excuse to get the hobby into the public eye, promoting
it in ham circles is seen as good enough.

So the hobbies likely are not reaching the young, who have the
interest and time to immerse themselves in a hobby. And even if
it was being done, I'm not certain the message is what's needed
to lure the young into the hobby. There was something very appealing
about amateur radio when I was ten, but I'm not certain it would appeal
to me if I learned of it at my present age. You can recite how
amateur radio is helpful to society, but I'm not sure that entices
people. You need to convey an excitement, and I don't see that happening.
You also, if you want the young, to be reaching them in a fashion that
actually reaches them. While I'm not sure how to do that at age 45,
I don't think it's done by talking down, or trying to be "hip" without
succeeding. It has to be done by remembering what it was like when you
were that age, rather than decades older when some of the magic is gone.

Michael

A really well-written and intelligent post.

Tony

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"Good points...does this mean other high end receivers are soon to
disappear?"
JS Unfortunately it is much easier to list the receiver manufacturers
that remain than it is to list the numerous companies that have dropped
over the past 20 years. The only high-end maker I'm aware of is Japan
Radio, and they are what I would call a niche company. Unless things
changed recently Icom and Yaesu announced they were pulling out. Look
at the advertisements in the latest Passport to WBR - there is ONE
company Eton advertising shortwave radios.


"Another simple question that would seem hard to answer...why are radio

clubs closing and SWL dying out? "
JS Fewer people are intrigued by the prospect of figuring out
propogation for noisy crackly broadcasts from far away lands. The
internet, cable TV, satellite radio, local radio, etc., provide faster,
more reliable and quieter access to information about the the world
than shortwave radio. Shortwave radio was once THE way to hear about
goings on from around the world, but there is a lot of very good
competition these days. I enjoy listening to both broadcast and
amateur radio stations, but I realize that I'm in a shrinking minority.


"I do know that ham fests are a shadow of what they used to be."
JS Haven't been to one for over 10 years. The last ones I attended
were kind of sorry affairs. Mostly dilapidated ham and ancient
computer gear in worn out boxes that had seen way too many shows.

I have not been to Dayton for awhile...is it also dying out?
JS Don't know, but I would assume it reflects the changes that are
also effecting the amateur radio hobby.

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote:

I do know that ham fests are a shadow of what they used to be.

I have not been to Dayton for awhile...is it also dying out?

Thank Ebay. You can sell a FRG-7 for somewhere between $100 and $200
at a hamfest, after a lot of dickering, etc., or you can put it on
Ebay and have a couple idiots go into a bidding war and sell it for
$600. I like hamfests, and support them, but I know people who go for
the specific purpose of picking up a bargain and selling it on ebay
later.

--
Eric F. Richards

"Nature abhors a vacuum tube." -- Myron Glass,
often attributed to J. R. Pierce, Bell Labs, c. 1940

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I would think there is....

One is still selling...the other is discontinued.

One made money for the company...the other did not.

One is the sign of the future...the other is the echo of the past.

There is likely to be a Grundig 900...there is no chance there will
be
a R9.

Did the Grundig 800 kill off the Drake R8?

Maybe or maybe not...but the buying patterns of SWLers definitely
did.

TMT

With that logic enjoy your Sat800. Have fun looking at the respective
spec sheets on the two.

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

I would think there is....

One is still selling...the other is discontinued.

One made money for the company...the other did not.

I think they certainly made money on all the R8 variants. However, had you
followed what had happened, apparently due to an apparent discontinuance of
certain parts in the R8B which would necessitate a circuit re-design, Drake
decided not to do that.

Drake is a pretty small firm.

But who is to say? Drake left the amateur and swl market in the past, only to
return, at least to the swl market.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

Drake R7, R8, R8A and R8B

http://www.iserv.net/~n8kdv/dxpage.htm

I'll take eBay any day. Nearly every radio I own - several dozen -
were bought on eBay. The only exceptions are some antique tube
radios that I bought before eBay (or the internet) existed.

You mean before Al Gore invented the internet? g

David(N)

I'll take eBay any day. Nearly every radio I own - several dozen -
were bought on eBay. The only exceptions are some antique tube
radios that I bought before eBay (or the internet) existed.

You mean before Al Gore invented the internet? g

David(N)

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
I would think there is....

One is still selling...the other is discontinued.

One made money for the company...the other did not.

One is the sign of the future...the other is the echo of the past.

There is likely to be a Grundig 900...there is no chance there will
be
a R9.

Did the Grundig 800 kill off the Drake R8?

Maybe or maybe not...but the buying patterns of SWLers definitely
did.

TMT


By this logic one could argue that the Subaru Outback killed the R8, or
the Sony Playstation, or any other product that is currently still on
the market. *Yawn*.

Steve

A company would not hesitate to do a redesign IF the product was
profitable.

Even in a large company, a redesign usually only involves a few people.

Doing a redesign is not a big deal and again would have been done if
the company thought the product was profitable.

Having a key component become unavailable happens all the time and
companies will do a last time buy to insure the product can be built
for decades to come IF the product is profitable.

The death of the Drake R8B is due to economics and not to technical
specs.

The Grundig 800 also continues to live due to economics and not to
technical specs.


TMT

Too_Many_Tools wrote:
A company would not hesitate to do a redesign IF the product was
profitable.

There are several reasons not to do a redesign.
1) There are no resources available to do the redesign.
2) The available resources can do something with a much better
return on the investment.
3) Amortizing the cost of the redesign into the future sales would
make the redesigned product unprofitable even when the original product
was probably profitable.



Even in a large company, a redesign usually only involves a few people.


That really depends upon how extensive the redesign is and the effort
needed to take a new product to market. A redesign may require new
certification. Also, only Drake knows how extensive the redesign would
have been.

Doing a redesign is not a big deal and again would have been done if
the company thought the product was profitable.

Not knowing the extent of the redesign means that 'not a big deal' most
likely does not apply or at least there is no data to support that
statement. The underlaying technology is many years old. It might be
necessary to refresh much of the design to significantly increase the
market life of the product.


Having a key component become unavailable happens all the time and
companies will do a last time buy to insure the product can be built
for decades to come IF the product is profitable.

I suspect that more than one component was near the end of its life.
Also, carrying material in inventory is very expensive for a company, it
ties up money that can be used to get a better return. Very few products
have a useful market life of decades, especially when you consider
consumer products. Technology based products generally have a very short
life due to the speed at which technology changes.


The death of the Drake R8B is due to economics and not to technical
specs.


Most likely true. After all, most companies are in business to make a
profit. So economics is a factor. However, without knowing any of the
details, and that information is Drake's business, not ours, nobody
outside of Drake knows how economics entered into the decision.
Technical specs drive the value in the marketplace, leading to sales and
profits. The technical specs for the R8B allowed it to be a viable
product for many years. Without those specs, the product would probably
have been history years ago.


The Grundig 800 also continues to live due to economics and not to
technical specs.


Only partially true. The technical specs are part of what makes the
radio successful in the marketplace. It also takes marketing and low
cost manufacturing. Many areas enter into the economics. When the
economics dictate, the 800 will no longer be available.


TMT


While those who like the R8B find it unfortunate that Drake is no longer
selling the product, we have to also acknowlege that the market for a
high end SW receiver is rather small.

I think many would like to see some new high end receivers introduced
into the market. The success of some of the Chinese manufacturers to
bring sub-$100 mediocre radios to the market indicates that there is
interest in SW. However, it also indicates that the marketplace isn't
willing to spend big dollars for a high end radio.

If manufacturers saw a solid, stable demand for high end radios, then
you would see more available. Unfortunately, I don't see the demand.

Perhaps this means SWLs will need to get back to building their own
radios. There are probably enough folks in the group that can make this
a reality if we all work together.

craigm

Good discussion...we really are saying the same thing.

If the product does not make a profit, it is gone. Drake is in the
business to make money, not radios.

I really do like the idea of SWLs building their own radios.

Whether or not they can be built equivalent to the specs of the Drake
R8B is quite another matter.

I note that most ham operators today are appliance operators and not
builders.

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
Good discussion...we really are saying the same thing.

If the product does not make a profit, it is gone. Drake is in the
business to make money, not radios.

Yes, but the reason why Drake decided that the profit wasn't
there (or not enough return) is not the same. There is a difference
between "SW is dying" and "it would cost too much to redesign
a significant portion of the entire radio which would in turn raise
the cost of the radio beyond what a hobbyist would pay for."
It's entirely possible that Drake examined a few basic overhaul
designs, and didn't like either a) the resultant circuitry or b) the
overall cost of what a receiver would run due to parts and/or
manufacturing assembly line changes.

I really do like the idea of SWLs building their own radios.

I used to think so too, but if you want a radio that will perform
at a level approaching a Sat 800 (never mind the R8B), you'll need
either a) a lot of time on your hands or b) an extreme level of
technical expertise. TenTec used to sell a SW kit; don't know
if they still do.

Whether or not they can be built equivalent to the specs of the
Drake
R8B is quite another matter.

I note that most ham operators today are appliance operators and not
builders.

The reason for that is time. The time involved in hand
constructing a receiver to todays specs from scratch is
rather extreme, given the complexity involved. I don't know
about you, but my free time has been considerably
crunched over the past decade, and if I had an option,
I'd rather listen or get on the air than build a radio or
transceiver from scratch. If I have the time in the future,
I'd like to build one, but not now.

--Mike L.

Has anyone considered that if the demise of the Drake R8 series was
truely because of discontinued parts then it is highly likely that
Drake will have few if any parts in inventory for customer repairs.

In the past, more than one great product has turned into a white
elephant because of unobtainable components.

TMT

"Too_Many_Tools" ) writes:
Has anyone considered that if the demise of the Drake R8 series was
truely because of discontinued parts then it is highly likely that
Drake will have few if any parts in inventory for customer repairs.

Of course, they may be anticipating that.

The component manufacturers tend to make note of when things are
going out of production, labelling them so you know you shouldn't
be putting them in any new productin design. They may have stopped
producting the receiver because it's hit that point, and any stock
is needed for future repairs.

Michael

In the past, more than one great product has turned into a white
elephant because of unobtainable components.

TMT

One thing's for sure about Drake, if you need a part for one of their
radios, as long as they're still in business they'll do their damndest to
get it for you.

I needed a band crystal for my SW-4, wrote Drake and the Parts Manager sold
me one he had at home.

Sony's sold eleventy-million ICF2010's; think their Parts Manager will do
that for us in 20 years?

John


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
Has anyone considered that if the demise of the Drake R8 series was
truely because of discontinued parts then it is highly likely that
Drake will have few if any parts in inventory for customer repairs.

In the past, more than one great product has turned into a white
elephant because of unobtainable components.

TMT

They probably won't do it NOW! Sony doesn't want to sell parts. They want
to sell you a new radio. They have the sorriest customer relations of any
company I've ever seen...


"John" wrote in message
...
One thing's for sure about Drake, if you need a part for one of their
radios, as long as they're still in business they'll do their damndest to
get it for you.

I needed a band crystal for my SW-4, wrote Drake and the Parts Manager
sold
me one he had at home.

Sony's sold eleventy-million ICF2010's; think their Parts Manager will do
that for us in 20 years?

John


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
Has anyone considered that if the demise of the Drake R8 series was
truely because of discontinued parts then it is highly likely that
Drake will have few if any parts in inventory for customer repairs.

In the past, more than one great product has turned into a white
elephant because of unobtainable components.

TMT

On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:10:40 +0000, DeWayne wrote:

Its much easier to replace the radio than bother with stocking replacement
parts. In most cases these days the cost of handing the parts makes
them more expensive than a replacement radio.



"Jim Hackett" wrote in message
k.net...
They probably won't do it NOW! Sony doesn't want to sell parts. They
want
to sell you a new radio. They have the sorriest customer relations of any
company I've ever seen...

I thought about buying a Sony SW77 used, but I was really leary of getting
it serviced.



"John" wrote in message
...
One thing's for sure about Drake, if you need a part for one of their
radios, as long as they're still in business they'll do their damndest to
get it for you.

I needed a band crystal for my SW-4, wrote Drake and the Parts Manager
sold
me one he had at home.

Sony's sold eleventy-million ICF2010's; think their Parts Manager will do
that for us in 20 years?

John


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
Has anyone considered that if the demise of the Drake R8 series was
truely because of discontinued parts then it is highly likely that
Drake will have few if any parts in inventory for customer repairs.

In the past, more than one great product has turned into a white
elephant because of unobtainable components.

TMT






--
Korbin Dallas
The name was changed to protect the guilty.

"Korbin Dallas" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 30 Apr 2005 13:10:40 +0000, DeWayne wrote:

Its much easier to replace the radio than bother with stocking replacement
parts. In most cases these days the cost of handing the parts makes
them more expensive than a replacement radio.

I'd like to hear how Sony customers who send in 2010's and SW77's out of
warranty. If Sony doesn't fix them then what happens? SOL?




"Jim Hackett" wrote in message
k.net...
They probably won't do it NOW! Sony doesn't want to sell parts. They
want
to sell you a new radio. They have the sorriest customer relations of
any
company I've ever seen...

I thought about buying a Sony SW77 used, but I was really leary of
getting
it serviced.



"John" wrote in message
...
One thing's for sure about Drake, if you need a part for one of their
radios, as long as they're still in business they'll do their damndest
to
get it for you.

I needed a band crystal for my SW-4, wrote Drake and the Parts Manager
sold
me one he had at home.

Sony's sold eleventy-million ICF2010's; think their Parts Manager will
do
that for us in 20 years?

John


"Too_Many_Tools" wrote in message
oups.com...
Has anyone considered that if the demise of the Drake R8 series was
truely because of discontinued parts then it is highly likely that
Drake will have few if any parts in inventory for customer repairs.

In the past, more than one great product has turned into a white
elephant because of unobtainable components.

TMT






--
Korbin Dallas
The name was changed to protect the guilty.