Independence from the King and from God
 

The theory of government presented in the Declaration of Independence,
then, represents a radical break with Judeo-Christian traditions that
went back thousands of years. Government, it asserts, derives its
powers not from the will of God but from the consent of the governed.
From being an instrument of God's wrath, government is demoted to an
invention of human beings, to be altered at the will of its creators.
Our Constitution goes even further than the Declaration in its
godlessness, not even bothering with a ceremonial invocation of God or
"Divine Providence" in vesting ultimate authority in "We, the people."
As James Madison, principal drafter of the Constitution, said,
"religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less
they are mixed together" (Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822;
excerpted in Quotations That Support the Separation of State and
Church). John Adams, second President of the United States, wrote that
"Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is
at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in
America....[i]t will never be pretended that any persons employed in
that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under
the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses,
or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be
acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use
of reason and the senses" ("A Defense of the Constitutions of
Government of the United States of America," 1787-1788; excerpted in
Quotations That Support the Separation of State and Church ).

This country went on not only to found what is likely the first
entirely secular government in human history but also to guarantee
religious liberty for all in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
Article VI of the Constitution, in barring any religious test or oath
for federal office, and the First Amendment, in protecting freedom of
religion and the separation of church and state which guarantees that
freedom, ended the long "Judeo-Christian" tradition of persecution,
torture, and death for differences of opinion in matters of religion-a
tradition that began with the Bible itself, which calls on the
faithful worshippers of God to denounce even their own parents and
children and to cast the first stone in putting them to death if they
deviate from the "true" religion (Deuteronomy, 13:6-11). That we do
not have a government based on the Bible-or "God's law"-or
"Judeo-Christian values"-is something that all Americans can be
grateful for every Fourth of July: grateful not to any god, but to the
human beings who established this country as a free country, and not a
Christian nation.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../buckner1.html

David wrote:

[Drivel snipped]

Take your meds, 'tard boy.

dxAce
Michigan
USA

http://www.iserv.net/~n8kdv/dxpage.htm

SNIP
WHAT....
what..
Does this have to do with Shortwave..??
-

David has the very good idea of reflecting on the origins of U.S.
Independence on this July 4th.


Here is w little of chapter 20 of "Faith & Freedom" by Benjamin Hart.

This passage concerns the French Revolution which took place right
after the American.

Btw, the whole book is published online for all to read at:

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/cdf/ff/index.html#




"""Another major enterprise of liberal historians has been to recast
the American Revolution in the image of the French Revolution. The
tendency of Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin toward deism is
often cited as evidence of America's trend toward "enlightened rational
humanism" during the period of America's founding. Whatever still
remained of the Christian faith in America was merely a fading remnant
- or so we are told.

It is very instructive, therefore, to turn for a moment to the
revolution in France, whose announced aim was to duplicate the American
Revolution, which had been such an obvious success. In fact, Thomas
Jefferson traveled to Paris in order to assist Lafayette and his
associates to draft their own Declaration of Rights. "Everyone here is
trying their hands at forming a declaration of rights," Jefferson wrote
in a letter to Madison, and included in his correspondence several
drafts. "As you will see," Jefferson observed, "it contains the
essential principles of ours accommodated as much as could be to the
actual state of things here." Article Four of the French Declaration of
the
Rights of Man, drafted in August of 1789, for example, states that
"liberty consists in the ability to do whatever does not harm another."
France's Declaration abolished slavery, titles of nobility, and the
remnants of feudalism and serfdom. In many respects, the French
Declaration appeared superior to Jefferson's Declaration of
Independence. But whereas the American Revolution ended in the
establishment of a constitutional democracy, a government under law,
the French Revolution ended in tyranny and government by the
guillotine, followed by the rise of Napoleon. The ob vious question is:
What went wrong in France?

The French Declaration did not acknowledge that the source of man's
rights is man's "Creator," as Jefferson had affirmed in America's
Declaration of Independence. The French Declaration did not even state
that rights are inherent, in-alienable, or derived from any
transcendent authority. Rights for the Frenchman were granted by an
"enlightened" government. Tocqueville noted the striking contrast when
he explained to his countiymen a half century later that America's
experiment in liberty was firmly rooted in the fact that "in the United
States the sovereign authority is religious." The French Revolution was
explicitly anti-religious, and could not replicate the American example
on a secular humanist foundation. Moreover, the prevailing sentiment in
the American colonies was to preserve liberties they already enjoyed,
to prevent the British monarchy from taking over their churches and
subverting their colonial ways of life. But the driving force behind
the French Revolution was a fanatical determination to tear down
established ways and institutions, which the disciples of Rousseau saw
as responsible for corrupting human nature.

Rousseau did not believe in original sin or private property. He hated
European civilization precisely because he saw it as a product of
Christianity. Rousseau stated flatly that "our souls are corrupted in
proportion to the advance of arts and sciences. His society rejected
all forms of Christianity, and put in its place the gospel of the
"General Will." Against it no individual rights would stand, because,
in Rousseau's view, the protection of individual rights stood in
opposition to the sovereignty of the people. Following Rousseau's
doctrines, the French executed their king, even after he had accepted
their constitution.1 From here, conditions rapidly degenerated into
anarchy, with the outbreak of internal ideological war and, in the
words of historian Henry May, the subsequent "executions of deviants,
the lukewarm and the suspect," culminating in the Reign of Terror
presided over by Robespierre. In just two years 20,000
people-considered allies of the Old Regime-were executed. France's
complete break with the past and with Christianity was symbolized by
the introduction of a new calendar that took 1792 as the year One, the
first year of the Republic.

The revolution finally turned against itself and began to devour its
own. Robespierre denounced the Encyclopedists, even though they were a
symbol of Enlightenment thinking, for their compromises with the
monarchy. Robespierre was himself guillotined in the summer of 1794.
The French Revolution was a grim example of how people behave when they
are unchecked by a sense of religious obligation.

Paine failed to make a distinction between the revolution in America
and the one in France. He was a political agitator and ideologue, pure
and simple, and was not disposed to looking closely at the facts. Paine
traveled to France to help topple the monarchy there, and published The
Rights of Man. Paine's behavior in France was rebuked by John Quincy
Adams, who challenged Paine's latest political tract designed to throw
fuel on the flames of the French Revolution. Adams objected principally
to Paine's main premise that "whatever a whole nation chooses to do, it
has the right to do," echoing Rousseau. Adams replied: "Nations, no
less than individuals, are subject to the eternal and immutable laws
ofjustice and morality." Paine's "doctrine," said Adams, "annihilated
the security of every man for his inalienable rights, and would lead in
practice to a hideous despotism, concealed under the party-colored
garments of democracy."

[Thomas] Paine, Adams pointed out, had missed the entire point of the
American Revolution, which was the assertion of rights that cannot be
deprived from an individual even by a majority. Adams rejected Paine's
contention that the people of Great Britain should follow the example
of France and "topple down headlong" their present government on the
grounds that the Anglican Church did not allow religious freedom:
"Happy, thrice happy the people of America!" said Adams, "whose
principles of religious liberty did not result from an indiscriminate
contempt of all religion whatever, and whose equal representation in
their legislative councils was founded upon equality really existing
among them, and not among the metaphysical speculations of fanciful
politicians, vainly contending against the unalterable course of
events, and the established order of nature [emphasis added]."

Thomas Paine eventually learned through personal experience that the
revolution in France was radically different from the one in America.
He was jailed by Robespierre for protesting the execution of the King
and having qualms about the direction of events. It took the
intervention of Thomas Jefferson to rescue Paine from the guillotine.
Prior to this, Paine had spent much of his political life crusading
against Christianity, again failing to make distinctions between the
true Christianity of Scripture and the often corrupt version taught by
religious establishments.

It is easy to see how a demagogue such as Paine could be attracted to
the cause of an extremist like Robespierre. But his experience in
France seems to have altered his thinking. He began to see how the
philosophy of atheism plays itself out in actual politics. His final
work, The Age of Reason (1794-96), although very critical of Christian
institutions, indicates something of a change of heart. He had become a
defender of reHgious faith against atheism: "Lest in the general wreck
of superstition, of false systems of government, and false theology, we
lost sight of morality, of humanity, and of the theology that is true."
On his deathbed he went still another step, embraced faith, and
retracted any and all attacks against Christianity in The Age of
Reason: "I would give worlds, if I had them, if The Age of Reason had
never been published. O Lord, help me! Christ, help me! Stay with me!
It is hell to be left alone." Paine, as vocal a debunker of
Christianity as there was in the colonies, died believing passionately
in God and hoping for a future life. He had learned the hard way the
lessons of the French Revolution."""

"Hatfield" wrote in message
ps.com...


On his deathbed he went still another step, embraced faith, and
retracted any and all attacks against Christianity in The Age of
Reason: "I would give worlds, if I had them, if The Age of Reason had
never been published. O Lord, help me! Christ, help me! Stay with me!
It is hell to be left alone." Paine, as vocal a debunker of
Christianity as there was in the colonies, died believing passionately
in God and hoping for a future life. He had learned the hard way the
lessons of the French Revolution."""

Absolute, utter bull**** brought to the same people who gave us the Lady
Hope story that Darwin renounced all of his works on his deathbed.. I'm an
atheist. Paine wasn't.

http://tinyurl.com/9lxjr

I'll not even bother with the rest of that load of crap including the
misrepresentation of Paine's political views, other than to note that it was
James Monroe who secured Paine's release from prison, not Thomas Jefferson.
(Talk about trying to revise history!)

Paine and Jefferson, by the way, were good friends. Which ought to tell you
something.

"Real scientists hold a very broad outlook of the universe, and will not
deny the unlimited 'unknown' with an individual's limited notions. As a
blind man has no idea of colors, so we have no idea of the manner that which
an all-wise God perceives and understands all things."
__________________________________________________ ____

http://www.infidels.org "Metaphysical Naturalism"

The Communist Party is atheist. It "believes" that "It" and only "It" is
supreme. The Communist Party "believes" "It" and only "It" has the
authority to control and manipulate the Universe, I.E. "Metaphysical
Naturalism"

The human "belief" that there is no greater "Being" than himself is an
affirmation of the "belief" that humans are "The" supreme Universal being.
This "belief" in and of itself is a pseudo-religion without supreme
guidance. Without belief in a superior being it constructs and manipulates
socially acceptable human behavior which ultimately decends into dictatorial
rule without moral and ethical guidance and without threat or fear.

This Metaphysical Naturalism belief is incorporated within Communist
Party doctrine.

Woman Raped on Street While People Pass By

About 10 p.m. on April 27, a young woman was raped on the street near a
construction company in the south of Baofeng, Henan province. The woman
continued to fight with the rapist and shouted for help but nobody offered.

On June 20 China's Legal TV Broadcast reported a "young woman raped on the
street while pedestrians stand by with folded arms." They described the rape
case in detail.

At 10:15 p.m. on April 27, police on duty at Chengguan police station,
Baofeng county of Henan province, received a call reporting a rape case and
then they rushed to the scene. They found a man raping a naked young woman.

According to the police, the woman never stopped struggling and calling for
help, and several pedestrians passed by but nobody tried to stop the
criminal. But when the police captured the crime suspect, a large crowd
gathered around to watch.

The female victim claimed that the rapist pulled her to the ground with a
knife at her throat and forcefully took off her clothes. The rapist
assaulted and abused his victim for about half an hour that evening. He cut
the young lady with his knife at some point in the struggle; bloodstains
were visible at the site the next day.

In the interrogation, the crime suspect confessed and told the police that
some pedestrians were passing by but nobody stopped him during his half-hour
of criminal activity. A tragedy could have been avoided, but was allowed to
go on because people are indifferent and numb to public acts of violence.

http://english.epochtimes.com/news/5-6-27/29859.html

Tai Ping Yang wrote:

"Real scientists hold a very broad outlook of the universe, and will not
deny the unlimited 'unknown' with an individual's limited notions. As a
blind man has no idea of colors, so we have no idea of the manner that which
an all-wise God perceives and understands all things."
__________________________________________________ ____

http://www.infidels.org "Metaphysical Naturalism"

The Communist Party is atheist. It "believes" that "It" and only "It" is
supreme. The Communist Party "believes" "It" and only "It" has the
authority to control and manipulate the Universe, I.E. "Metaphysical
Naturalism"

Not quite. Marx believed that religion artificially kept people from
rebelling against capitalism by promising them paradise in the life to
come. In Marx's view, people were promised a beautiful eternity in
exchange for enduring wretchedness in their physical existences. Thus
the famous statement that "religion is the opiate of the people".
Certainly, in the real world application of Marxism (something Marx
always had a shaky grasp of) the Party set itself up as God's
replacement. But I don't think that was Marx's original intention.

The human "belief" that there is no greater "Being" than himself is an
affirmation of the "belief" that humans are "The" supreme Universal being.
This "belief" in and of itself is a pseudo-religion without supreme
guidance. Without belief in a superior being it constructs and manipulates
socially acceptable human behavior which ultimately decends into dictatorial
rule without moral and ethical guidance and without threat or fear.

Huh? Do you know how many times the Bible has been altered? How many
times the Levitical Laws were changed? Have you ever heard of the divine
right of kings, where the king claimed that he was responsible only to
God, thus giving him free rein to do as he liked, since God was
conveniently absent? Do you know that for a thousand years Christians
were prohibited from reading the Bible, thus keeping them ignorant about
what it really said, allowing the Church to claim anything it wanted
about what was in there? Absolute moral law is whatever the leaders say
it is, except in Communism the absolute authority is Marx or Lenin or
Mao instead of God. Li, you're still the starry eyed idealist that you
were as a youth, only now the object of your idealism is religion and
the US Constitution rather than Marx. Wake up and live in the real world
for once in your life.


This Metaphysical Naturalism belief is incorporated within Communist
Party doctrine.

Woman Raped on Street While People Pass By

Have you ever heard of Kitty Genovese?
(snip)


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Honus wrote:


"Hatfield" wrote in message
ps.com...


On his deathbed he went still another step, embraced faith, and
retracted any and all attacks against Christianity in The Age of
Reason: "I would give worlds, if I had them, if The Age of Reason had
never been published. O Lord, help me! Christ, help me! Stay with me!
It is hell to be left alone." Paine, as vocal a debunker of
Christianity as there was in the colonies, died believing passionately
in God and hoping for a future life. He had learned the hard way the
lessons of the French Revolution."""

Absolute, utter bull**** brought to the same people who gave us the Lady
Hope story that Darwin renounced all of his works on his deathbed.. I'm an
atheist. Paine wasn't.

http://tinyurl.com/9lxjr

I'll not even bother with the rest of that load of crap including the
misrepresentation of Paine's political views, other than to note that it was
James Monroe who secured Paine's release from prison, not Thomas Jefferson.
(Talk about trying to revise history!)

Paine and Jefferson, by the way, were good friends. Which ought to tell you
something.

Atheism is not necessarily secular humanism. Atheism is the lack of
belief in a god, usually the Christian God, but often of all gods. That
is all. It does not imply secular humanism, or communism, or any other
philosophy that attempts to replace God and/or traditional morality. The
original form of Buddhism could be considered atheism, since Buddha did
not make belief in a God or the gods (he was East Indian) a centerpiece
of his faith. It was only after he died that he was declared a god, and
placed in a pantheon with other gods (look at Tibetan Buddhism). My
point here is to show that one can still be religious and be an atheist.


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david, David. DAVID !

On 4 Jul 2005 21:20:31 -0700, "RHF"
wrote:

david, David. DAVID !
.
How Wrong You Are [.]
.
God {Allah} Bless America !
and God Bless 'you' too DaviD.
.
A Happy 4th of July to one and all.
.
The Spirit of America Lives in the Hearts of Free Ameicans.
.
be free - live free - let freedom fill your being ~ RHF
. . . . .

Freedom means not having to worry about Cloud Beings looking over your
shoulder.