More Devil's advocate
 

----- Original Message -----
From: "John S."
Newsgroups: rec.radio.shortwave
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 7:50 AM
Subject: Yeah, it's a troll.




Mike Speed wrote:
Devil's advocate:

Is the ARRL a bureaucracy?

Sure, what organization isn't.

Bureaucracy: a system of administration marked by officialism, red tape,
and proliferation

I've been a member of some ham clubs that were
not bureaucratic and they were an organization - it was more
like a fraternity.

What can happen in a bureaucratic organization?
I don't know, since the term just describes the structure.


Well, aren't some bureaucratic organizations corrupt due to the bureaucracy?
If it can happen in other bureaucracies, can it happen in the ARRL?

Where does the money from the fees go, exactly?
I don't know...why not take a look at their budget and report back.


Okay, where could I get *factual* *unbiased* declarations of their budget?

How much utility does QST really have?
Lots if you are a ham and a member of the ARRL.


Lots? Give me some examples.

How strong of a lobbying force is the ARRL with the FCC - really?
I don't know, what is your opinion.


I think about the efforts of the ARRL to persuade the FCC to give us
useful allocations in the Lowfer segments - there's a huge opportunity
for hams to do what they do best - be on the cutting edge and invent
methods to communicate in difficult situations. Only one example of
many.

I am all for keeping the ARRL.
cuhulin

Mike Speed wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "John S."
Newsgroups: rec.radio.shortwave
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 7:50 AM
Subject: Yeah, it's a troll.




Mike Speed wrote:
Devil's advocate:

Is the ARRL a bureaucracy?

Sure, what organization isn't.

Bureaucracy: a system of administration marked by officialism, red tape,
and proliferation

Here's a more complete description of bureaucracy. Max Weber has
probably been one of the most influential users of the word in its
social science sense. He is well-known for his study of
bureaucratization of society; many aspects of modern public
administration go back to him; a classic, hierarchically organized
civil service of the continental type is-if basically
mistakenly-called "Weberian civil service".

However, contrary to popular belief, "bureaucracy" was an English word
before Weber; the Oxford English Dictionary cites usage in several
different years between 1818 and 1860, prior to Weber's birth in 1864.
The term can characterize either governmental or nongovernmental
organizations and comes from the French word bureaucratie, from bureau
"office, desk" and the greek suffix -kratia "power". It was first used
by 18th century French economist Jean Claude Marie Vincent de Gournay
(1712-1759).





I've been a member of some ham clubs that were
not bureaucratic and they were an organization - it was more
like a fraternity.

What can happen in a bureaucratic organization?
I don't know, since the term just describes the structure.


Well, aren't some bureaucratic organizations corrupt due to the bureaucracy?
If it can happen in other bureaucracies, can it happen in the ARRL?

Where does the money from the fees go, exactly?
I don't know...why not take a look at their budget and report back.


Okay, where could I get *factual* *unbiased* declarations of their budget?
That's obvious - I would look on their website for a copy of their
audited annual statement in which the auditors gave a clean opinion.
Also look at the filing they make with the IRS as a tax exempt entity.
Magazines also publish periodic disclosures of subsriptions and sales.




How much utility does QST really have?
Lots if you are a ham and a member of the ARRL.


Lots? Give me some examples.
I'm not a member, but if I were, high on the list would be: It's a
fraternity of like minded people who enjoy both the hobby and
one-another's company (most of the time) on the air.


How strong of a lobbying force is the ARRL with the FCC - really?
I don't know, what is your opinion.


I think about the efforts of the ARRL to persuade the FCC to give us
useful allocations in the Lowfer segments - there's a huge opportunity
for hams to do what they do best - be on the cutting edge and invent
methods to communicate in difficult situations. Only one example of
many.

You asked how strong a lobbying force the ARRL was, but didn't answer
the question.

Actually, the ARRL has a much bigger issue to weigh in on than
expanding the ham bands. The ARRL will be doing well to hold on to
what amateurs have given the trends in membership and demands for
commercial use of spectrum allocated to hams.

As the official hobby organ they have to figure out pretty quickly how
to breathe some life into a mature hobby that is facing some stiff
competition from methoods of communicating that require no license.
The hobby is greying rapidly.

snip

However, contrary to popular belief, "bureaucracy" was an English word

snip

I'll take your word for it.


Okay, where could I get *factual* *unbiased* declarations of their
budget?
That's obvious - I would look on their website for a copy of their
audited annual statement in which the auditors gave a clean opinion.
Also look at the filing they make with the IRS as a tax exempt entity.
Magazines also publish periodic disclosures of subsriptions and sales.


Website - maybe. The other things - okay, I will.


How much utility does QST really have?
Lots if you are a ham and a member of the ARRL.


Lots? Give me some examples.
I'm not a member, but if I were, high on the list would be: It's a
fraternity of like minded people who enjoy both the hobby and
one-another's company (most of the time) on the air.


Does one have to be a member of the ARRL and receive QST to
be "...a fraternity of like minded people..., etc.?" Your example does not
provide a convincing argument for what I asked for.



How strong of a lobbying force is the ARRL with the FCC - really?
I don't know, what is your opinion.


I think about the efforts of the ARRL to persuade the FCC to give us
useful allocations in the Lowfer segments - there's a huge opportunity
for hams to do what they do best - be on the cutting edge and invent
methods to communicate in difficult situations. Only one example of
many.

You asked how strong a lobbying force the ARRL was, but didn't answer
the question.

Yes, I did. I answered the question by providing an example. Part of the
lobbying efforts of the ARRL *is* to encourage technological innovation
and strongly petitioning the FCC to provide useful lowfer segments is a
perfect example of an area where hams could further the communication
art. If the ARRL could accomplish such a feat, it would be a *very* clear
indication of how strong they are as lobbyists.


Actually, the ARRL has a much bigger issue to weigh in on than
expanding the ham bands. The ARRL will be doing well to hold on to
what amateurs have given the trends in membership and demands for
commercial use of spectrum allocated to hams.


Yes, there are big issues at stake - the threat of BPL comes to mind.

As the official hobby organ they have to figure out pretty quickly how
to breathe some life into a mature hobby that is facing some stiff
competition from methoods of communicating that require no license.
The hobby is greying rapidly.


Yes, I've been hearing very similar musings for many years, and yet
here we are.

As far as "greying": I see an integration of new technology with radio -
like hams have always done - EchoLink and the like, if you like that
sort of thing. I've also been hearing new modulation methods on the
bands - DigTRX for one. Then there's microwaves. The sky is the
limit in the microwave segments (and above) - literally.

Mike Speed wrote:
snip

However, contrary to popular belief, "bureaucracy" was an English word

snip

I'll take your word for it.


Okay, where could I get *factual* *unbiased* declarations of their
budget?
That's obvious - I would look on their website for a copy of their
audited annual statement in which the auditors gave a clean opinion.
Also look at the filing they make with the IRS as a tax exempt entity.
Magazines also publish periodic disclosures of subsriptions and sales.


Website - maybe. The other things - okay, I will.

An audited financial statement with a clean opinion is a pretty strong
document unless of course you are saying or implying that the ARRL is
posting a fraudulent financial statement on their website. That is a
pretty strong accusation and I hope you have something to back it up.



How much utility does QST really have?
Lots if you are a ham and a member of the ARRL.


Lots? Give me some examples.
I'm not a member, but if I were, high on the list would be: It's a
fraternity of like minded people who enjoy both the hobby and
one-another's company (most of the time) on the air.


Does one have to be a member of the ARRL and receive QST to
be "...a fraternity of like minded people..., etc.?" Your example does not
provide a convincing argument for what I asked for.

Put simply the people who are members of the ARRL share common
interests in amateur radio and enjoy communicating over the radio
waves. For those people the QST magazine is like any other hobbyist
mag a source of information and a way to read what the rest of the
hobby is doing. Pretty simple....



How strong of a lobbying force is the ARRL with the FCC - really?
I don't know, what is your opinion.


I think about the efforts of the ARRL to persuade the FCC to give us
useful allocations in the Lowfer segments - there's a huge opportunity
for hams to do what they do best - be on the cutting edge and invent
methods to communicate in difficult situations. Only one example of
many.

You asked how strong a lobbying force the ARRL was, but didn't answer
the question.

Yes, I did. I answered the question by providing an example. Part of the
lobbying efforts of the ARRL *is* to encourage technological innovation
and strongly petitioning the FCC to provide useful lowfer segments is a
perfect example of an area where hams could further the communication
art. If the ARRL could accomplish such a feat, it would be a *very* clear
indication of how strong they are as lobbyists.

That's small potatoes compared to what they should be doing. Which is
to work with the federal regulator to establish meaningful tests and
find ways to attract new blood into the hobby.


Actually, the ARRL has a much bigger issue to weigh in on than
expanding the ham bands. The ARRL will be doing well to hold on to
what amateurs have given the trends in membership and demands for
commercial use of spectrum allocated to hams.


Yes, there are big issues at stake - the threat of BPL comes to mind.

You are focused on the trees - minor technical issues. The life of
this hobby is at risk if the ARRL doesn't get it's collective head out
of the sand and make the radio hobby interesting enough to attract the
teens and 20somethings. If the league want's to retain tests as a way
of controlling access they have to test on things that are relevant to
safe and effective radio operation as it is practiced now.


As the official hobby organ they have to figure out pretty quickly how
to breathe some life into a mature hobby that is facing some stiff
competition from methoods of communicating that require no license.
The hobby is greying rapidly.


Yes, I've been hearing very similar musings for many years, and yet
here we are.

Yes, here we are. Amateur radio retailers are going out of business
because of declining sales. There still is a considerable body of
licensed amateurs, but when I listen on the bands every conversation I
hear tells me their average age is increasing.


As far as "greying": I see an integration of new technology with radio -
like hams have always done - EchoLink and the like, if you like that
sort of thing. I've also been hearing new modulation methods on the
bands - DigTRX for one. Then there's microwaves. The sky is the
limit in the microwave segments (and above) - literally.

Yes, there are new modes, but try convincing someone with immediate
access to numerous unlicensed ways of communicating that it is somehow
worthwhile to learn archaic morse code and sit for partly meaningful
written tests to gain ham privileges. Those potential young hams can
talk with large parts of the world using common everday electronic
devices. How do licensed hams convince those outside the hobby that
ham radio still offers something unique. I don't have an answer, but
the ARRL and it's members better get outside the box and do some
serious thinking.

John S. wrote:
Mike Speed wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "John S."
Newsgroups: rec.radio.shortwave
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 7:50 AM
Subject: Yeah, it's a troll.




Mike Speed wrote:
Devil's advocate:

Is the ARRL a bureaucracy?

Sure, what organization isn't.

Bureaucracy: a system of administration marked by officialism, red tape,
and proliferation

Here's a more complete description of bureaucracy. Max Weber has
probably been one of the most influential users of the word in its
social science sense. He is well-known for his study of
bureaucratization of society; many aspects of modern public
administration go back to him; a classic, hierarchically organized
civil service of the continental type is-if basically
mistakenly-called "Weberian civil service".

However, contrary to popular belief, "bureaucracy" was an English word
before Weber; the Oxford English Dictionary cites usage in several
different years between 1818 and 1860, prior to Weber's birth in 1864.
The term can characterize either governmental or nongovernmental
organizations and comes from the French word bureaucratie, from bureau
"office, desk" and the greek suffix -kratia "power". It was first used
by 18th century French economist Jean Claude Marie Vincent de Gournay
(1712-1759).





I've been a member of some ham clubs that were
not bureaucratic and they were an organization - it was more
like a fraternity.

What can happen in a bureaucratic organization?
I don't know, since the term just describes the structure.


Well, aren't some bureaucratic organizations corrupt due to the bureaucracy?
If it can happen in other bureaucracies, can it happen in the ARRL?

Where does the money from the fees go, exactly?
I don't know...why not take a look at their budget and report back.


break

Okay, where could I get *factual* *unbiased* declarations of their budget?
That's obvious - I would look on their website for a copy of their
audited annual statement in which the auditors gave a clean opinion.
Also look at the filing they make with the IRS as a tax exempt entity.
Magazines also publish periodic disclosures of subsriptions and sales.

Enron auditors also gave em a clean bill of health






How much utility does QST really have?
Lots if you are a ham and a member of the ARRL.


Lots? Give me some examples.

break
I'm not a member, but if I were, high on the list would be: It's a
fraternity of like minded people who enjoy both the hobby and
one-another's company (most of the time) on the air.

But the ARRL is by and large not composed of Like minded folks to me



How strong of a lobbying force is the ARRL with the FCC - really?
I don't know, what is your opinion.


I think about the efforts of the ARRL to persuade the FCC to give us
useful allocations in the Lowfer segments - there's a huge opportunity
for hams to do what they do best - be on the cutting edge and invent
methods to communicate in difficult situations. Only one example of
many.

You asked how strong a lobbying force the ARRL was, but didn't answer
the question.

Actually, the ARRL has a much bigger issue to weigh in on than
expanding the ham bands. The ARRL will be doing well to hold on to
what amateurs have given the trends in membership and demands for
commercial use of spectrum allocated to hams.

As the official hobby organ they have to figure out pretty quickly how
to breathe some life into a mature hobby that is facing some stiff
competition from methoods of communicating that require no license.
The hobby is greying rapidly.

How much utility does QST really have?
Lots if you are a ham and a member of the ARRL.


Lots? Give me some examples.

Well, let's look at the last few months:

Reviews of equipment, software, digital communications modes.
Basic theory and experiments for newcomers.
Construction projects - ancient and modern.
Various antenna designs.
Hints for solving problems with the latest commercial equipment.

I don't particulary like the ARRL, would not feel the loss if they went away, and
am not into contests or Ham politics; but I have no trouble finding interesting
stuff in QST.

Dave

Does any one remember " Incentive Licensing"?......I NEVER forgot
that..............


Steve W4SEF

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 08:45:15 -0600, "Mike Speed" wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: "John S."
Newsgroups: rec.radio.shortwave
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 7:50 AM
Subject: Yeah, it's a troll.




Mike Speed wrote:
Devil's advocate:

Is the ARRL a bureaucracy?

Sure, what organization isn't.

Bureaucracy: a system of administration marked by officialism, red tape,
and proliferation

I've been a member of some ham clubs that were
not bureaucratic and they were an organization - it was more
like a fraternity.

What can happen in a bureaucratic organization?
I don't know, since the term just describes the structure.


Well, aren't some bureaucratic organizations corrupt due to the bureaucracy?
If it can happen in other bureaucracies, can it happen in the ARRL?

Where does the money from the fees go, exactly?
I don't know...why not take a look at their budget and report back.


Okay, where could I get *factual* *unbiased* declarations of their budget?

How much utility does QST really have?
Lots if you are a ham and a member of the ARRL.


Lots? Give me some examples.

How strong of a lobbying force is the ARRL with the FCC - really?
I don't know, what is your opinion.


I think about the efforts of the ARRL to persuade the FCC to give us
useful allocations in the Lowfer segments - there's a huge opportunity
for hams to do what they do best - be on the cutting edge and invent
methods to communicate in difficult situations. Only one example of
many.

Website - maybe. The other things - okay, I will.

An audited financial statement with a clean opinion is a pretty strong
document unless of course you are saying or implying that the ARRL is
posting a fraudulent financial statement on their website. That is a
pretty strong accusation and I hope you have something to back it up.


Why do *you* hope that?

snip


Yes, there are big issues at stake - the threat of BPL comes to mind.

You are focused on the trees - minor technical issues.

BPL *is not* a *minor* technical issue - such a statement shows a high
level of ignorance. Have you ever tried to work a station on 432 Mhz
off the moon? I have tried and succeeded. BPL would increase noise
levels tremendously on the weak signal portions of the upper bands. Even
the FCC website acknowledges this. The ARRL is working to lobby
against BPL, but they're doing a very poor job. I know it and other
hams who know what they're talking about tell me the same thing.

The life of
this hobby is at risk if the ARRL doesn't get it's collective head out
of the sand and make the radio hobby interesting enough to attract the
teens and 20somethings.

Cite some precedents - what is your basis for such a statement?

If the league want's to retain tests as a way
of controlling access they have to test on things that are relevant to
safe and effective radio operation as it is practiced now.

Who says the ARRL wants to retain tests to control access? Is testing
only to determine one's competence in ..."safe and effective radio
operation...?"
When I took the tests, there were questions about electronics, knowing
what classes could operate on which frequencies, permissible unattended
station operation, propagation, much more.



Yes, here we are. Amateur radio retailers are going out of business
because of declining sales. There still is a considerable body of
licensed amateurs, but when I listen on the bands every conversation I
hear tells me their average age is increasing.


Which retailers are going out of business?

Yes, there have been studies which show the average age is increasing.

*Every* conversation? That's hyperbole.


Yes, there are new modes, but try convincing someone with immediate
access to numerous unlicensed ways of communicating that it is somehow
worthwhile to learn archaic morse code

Whew! Talk about unleashing a bomb with that statement! That's a huge
can of worms and millions of words have been written about that.

and sit for partly meaningful
written tests to gain ham privileges.
Those potential young hams can
talk with large parts of the world using common everday electronic
devices. How do licensed hams convince those outside the hobby that
ham radio still offers something unique. I don't have an answer, but
the ARRL and it's members better get outside the box and do some
serious thinking.


The ARRL and its' members have had *years* to do something - look at the
result - nothing.

Mike Speed wrote:
Website - maybe. The other things - okay, I will.

An audited financial statement with a clean opinion is a pretty strong
document unless of course you are saying or implying that the ARRL is
posting a fraudulent financial statement on their website. That is a
pretty strong accusation and I hope you have something to back it up.


Why do *you* hope that?
Because I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. You appear to have
little understanding of financial statements, audits, etc.


snip


Yes, there are big issues at stake - the threat of BPL comes to mind.

You are focused on the trees - minor technical issues.

BPL *is not* a *minor* technical issue - such a statement shows a high
level of ignorance. Have you ever tried to work a station on 432 Mhz
off the moon? I have tried and succeeded. BPL would increase noise
levels tremendously on the weak signal portions of the upper bands. Even
the FCC website acknowledges this. The ARRL is working to lobby
against BPL, but they're doing a very poor job. I know it and other
hams who know what they're talking about tell me the same thing.

You cn worry about BPL 'till the cows come home. It won't make one
whit of difference if the number of active hams continues its steady
decline.


The life of
this hobby is at risk if the ARRL doesn't get it's collective head out
of the sand and make the radio hobby interesting enough to attract the
teens and 20somethings.

Cite some precedents - what is your basis for such a statement?

Precedents for what...your question makes no sense.


If the league want's to retain tests as a way
of controlling access they have to test on things that are relevant to
safe and effective radio operation as it is practiced now.

Who says the ARRL wants to retain tests to control access? Is testing
only to determine one's competence in ..."safe and effective radio
operation...?"
When I took the tests, there were questions about electronics, knowing
what classes could operate on which frequencies, permissible unattended
station operation, propagation, much more.

The only reason ARRL retains its out of date tests is to control access
to the bands, or to act as gatekeeper. And to keep an ever aging group
of members happy because they are requiring the same meaningless morse
code test that the grey hairs took 40 years ago.




Yes, here we are. Amateur radio retailers are going out of business
because of declining sales. There still is a considerable body of
licensed amateurs, but when I listen on the bands every conversation I
hear tells me their average age is increasing.


Which retailers are going out of business?

They've already gone.

Yes, there have been studies which show the average age is increasing.

*Every* conversation? That's hyperbole.


Yes, there are new modes, but try convincing someone with immediate
access to numerous unlicensed ways of communicating that it is somehow
worthwhile to learn archaic morse code

Whew! Talk about unleashing a bomb with that statement! That's a huge
can of worms and millions of words have been written about that.

The morse code test is the equivalent of requiring prospective car
drivers to know how to control a horse and buggy. Fact is the 20
somethings have little or no interest in ham radio and all of its
quaint licenses.


and sit for partly meaningful
written tests to gain ham privileges.
Those potential young hams can
talk with large parts of the world using common everday electronic
devices. How do licensed hams convince those outside the hobby that
ham radio still offers something unique. I don't have an answer, but
the ARRL and it's members better get outside the box and do some
serious thinking.


The ARRL and its' members have had *years* to do something - look at the
result - nothing.

You cn worry about BPL 'till the cows come home. It won't make one
whit of difference if the number of active hams continues its steady
decline.


You couldn't be more wrong. I read a statistical study in which the number
of hams world-wide *and* in the U.S. has shown to be steadily increasing.


The life of
this hobby is at risk if the ARRL doesn't get it's collective head out
of the sand and make the radio hobby interesting enough to attract the
teens and 20somethings.

Cite some precedents - what is your basis for such a statement?

Precedents for what...your question makes no sense.

You said the hobby is at risk - prove it.

The only reason ARRL retains its out of date tests is to control access
to the bands, or to act as gatekeeper. And to keep an ever aging group
of members happy because they are requiring the same meaningless morse
code test that the grey hairs took 40 years ago.

Once again - *prove* the the reason the "...ARRL retains its out of date
tests is to control access
to the bands, or to act as gatekeeper..."

snip

Which retailers are going out of business?

They've already gone.

Ummm - the retailers I've dealt with for *years* are still in business.
You completely avoided an answer to my question - you didn't even
cite one example.


The morse code test is the equivalent of requiring prospective car
drivers to know how to control a horse and buggy. Fact is the 20
somethings have little or no interest in ham radio and all of its
quaint licenses.

I can discuss situations in which morse code is the most effective way
to communicate in certain situations until I'm blue in the face - it won't
change your mind - I've already cited examples and you didn't say a
word about them. I wonder why?

John S. wrote:
Mike Speed wrote:
Website - maybe. The other things - okay, I will.

An audited financial statement with a clean opinion is a pretty strong
document unless of course you are saying or implying that the ARRL is
posting a fraudulent financial statement on their website. That is a
pretty strong accusation and I hope you have something to back it up.


Why do *you* hope that?
Because I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. You appear to have
little understanding of financial statements, audits, etc.


snip


Yes, there are big issues at stake - the threat of BPL comes to mind.

You are focused on the trees - minor technical issues.

BPL *is not* a *minor* technical issue - such a statement shows a high
level of ignorance. Have you ever tried to work a station on 432 Mhz
off the moon? I have tried and succeeded. BPL would increase noise
levels tremendously on the weak signal portions of the upper bands. Even
the FCC website acknowledges this. The ARRL is working to lobby
against BPL, but they're doing a very poor job. I know it and other
hams who know what they're talking about tell me the same thing.

You cn worry about BPL 'till the cows come home. It won't make one
whit of difference if the number of active hams continues its steady
decline.


The life of
this hobby is at risk if the ARRL doesn't get it's collective head out
of the sand and make the radio hobby interesting enough to attract the
teens and 20somethings.

Cite some precedents - what is your basis for such a statement?

Precedents for what...your question makes no sense.


If the league want's to retain tests as a way
of controlling access they have to test on things that are relevant to
safe and effective radio operation as it is practiced now.

Who says the ARRL wants to retain tests to control access? Is testing
only to determine one's competence in ..."safe and effective radio
operation...?"
When I took the tests, there were questions about electronics, knowing
what classes could operate on which frequencies, permissible unattended
station operation, propagation, much more.

The only reason ARRL retains its out of date tests is to control access
to the bands, or to act as gatekeeper. And to keep an ever aging group
of members happy because they are requiring the same meaningless morse
code test that the grey hairs took 40 years ago.




Yes, here we are. Amateur radio retailers are going out of business
because of declining sales. There still is a considerable body of
licensed amateurs, but when I listen on the bands every conversation I
hear tells me their average age is increasing.


Which retailers are going out of business?

They've already gone.

Radio Shack at least as far Ham radio is concerned


Yes, there have been studies which show the average age is increasing.

*Every* conversation? That's hyperbole.


Yes, there are new modes, but try convincing someone with immediate
access to numerous unlicensed ways of communicating that it is somehow
worthwhile to learn archaic morse code

Whew! Talk about unleashing a bomb with that statement! That's a huge
can of worms and millions of words have been written about that.

The morse code test is the equivalent of requiring prospective car
drivers to know how to control a horse and buggy. Fact is the 20
somethings have little or no interest in ham radio and all of its
quaint licenses.


and sit for partly meaningful
written tests to gain ham privileges.
Those potential young hams can
talk with large parts of the world using common everday electronic
devices. How do licensed hams convince those outside the hobby that
ham radio still offers something unique. I don't have an answer, but
the ARRL and it's members better get outside the box and do some
serious thinking.


The ARRL and its' members have had *years* to do something - look at the
result - nothing.

which some of those memebr are nolonger memeber becuase of it

Mike Speed wrote:
You cn worry about BPL 'till the cows come home. It won't make one
whit of difference if the number of active hams continues its steady
decline.


You couldn't be more wrong. I read a statistical study in which the number
of hams world-wide *and* in the U.S. has shown to be steadily increasing.

Where is the statistical study you read.

You seem to be long on unfounded opinion and short on fact. Here is
the conclusion to an extensive analysis of trends in ham license
statistics. The link is also below.

Average age of licensed Hams is approaching 60 years as these trends
in License Counts and Remaining Life continue. These trends lead me to
believe our hobby of Amateur Radio will suffer from severe problems
unless there is a major change in our ability to recruit, educate,
license and sustain activity of new young Hams.

http://users.crosspaths.net/~wallio/LICENSE.html



The life of
this hobby is at risk if the ARRL doesn't get it's collective head out
of the sand and make the radio hobby interesting enough to attract the
teens and 20somethings.

Cite some precedents - what is your basis for such a statement?

Precedents for what...your question makes no sense.

You said the hobby is at risk - prove it.

See above for some facts and just listen to the guys on the bands.
The membership is getting older on average. Not a good sign of
vitality.


The only reason ARRL retains its out of date tests is to control access
to the bands, or to act as gatekeeper. And to keep an ever aging group
of members happy because they are requiring the same meaningless morse
code test that the grey hairs took 40 years ago.

Once again - *prove* the the reason the "...ARRL retains its out of date
tests is to control access
to the bands, or to act as gatekeeper..."

That is one of the ARRL's functions...to limit access to the bands by
requiring and adminstering a testing program. If you don't believe me
read their charter. The ARRL continues to support out-of-date tests
and do little to entice young blood into the hobby. The ARRL behaves
as though they were in the 1950's when every high school had a radio
club kids built crystal radios and the hobby didn't have to worry about
attracting members. Youngsters were clammoring at the gates to learn
code, take the test and get a license. Times have changed and the
young have other ways of talking with one another and otherwise finding
out about the world. In other words they are not knocking at the gate
manned by the ARRL gatekeeper. In fact they have no idea where the
gate is.


snip

Which retailers are going out of business?

They've already gone.

Ummm - the retailers I've dealt with for *years* are still in business.
You completely avoided an answer to my question - you didn't even
cite one example.

Here's two: Delaware Radio and EEB.



The morse code test is the equivalent of requiring prospective car
drivers to know how to control a horse and buggy. Fact is the 20
somethings have little or no interest in ham radio and all of its
quaint licenses.

I can discuss situations in which morse code is the most effective way
to communicate in certain situations until I'm blue in the face - it won't
change your mind - I've already cited examples and you didn't say a
word about them. I wonder why?

The fact is that morse code has been abandoned by virtually all
commercial and military users of the spectrum. It is a skill for which
there is no modern day use, other than for hams to talk slowly with one
another. From personal experience I know the military communications
pros tend to chuckle a bit when the discussion comes to hams and mars
activities on hf.

I remember when the H&W nets actually attracted traffic several years
back. One notable instance was covering the aftermath of a hurricane
and was jammed with hams walking over one-another transmitting in voice
and morse code all trying to talk with someone in the effected area.
It was not a pretty thing to listen to...in-fact it was chaos and no
information of any consequence could have been exchanged. My sense was
that most of the hams were trying to score rather than pass traffic of
concerned loved ones.

an_old_friend wrote:
John S. wrote:
Mike Speed wrote:
----- Original Message -----
Where does the money from the fees go, exactly?
I don't know...why not take a look at their budget and report back.


break

Okay, where could I get *factual* *unbiased* declarations of their budget?
That's obvious - I would look on their website for a copy of their
audited annual statement in which the auditors gave a clean opinion.
Also look at the filing they make with the IRS as a tax exempt entity.
Magazines also publish periodic disclosures of subsriptions and sales.

Enron auditors also gave em a clean bill of health

By making that statement you appear to be implying that no auditor or
audited statement is to be trusted. Are you really saying that? That
would be analagous to saying because there are a few bad hams on 3.8
mhz 14mhz that all hams are rude and undeserving of their license
privileges.

Where is the statistical study you read.


I read it about two months ago. I will try hard to track it down.

You said the hobby is at risk - prove it.

See above for some facts and just listen to the guys on the bands.
The membership is getting older on average. Not a good sign of
vitality.

Point conceded.


That is one of the ARRL's functions...to limit access to the bands by
requiring and adminstering a testing program. If you don't believe me
read their charter.

I did - yesterday when I was also looking at their independent audit.

The ARRL continues to support out-of-date tests
and do little to entice young blood into the hobby. The ARRL behaves
as though they were in the 1950's when every high school had a radio
club kids built crystal radios and the hobby didn't have to worry about
attracting members. Youngsters were clammoring at the gates to learn
code, take the test and get a license. Times have changed and the
young have other ways of talking with one another and otherwise finding
out about the world. In other words they are not knocking at the gate
manned by the ARRL gatekeeper. In fact they have no idea where the
gate is.


Okay that is purely your opinion - not fact. I asked for proof - not
opinion.


Here's two: Delaware Radio and EEB.

Okay , but whenever I've needed equipment or *parts*
(microwave parts, for example), I have been and am able to get
them today. Can it be the examples you cited are inconsequential?


The fact is that morse code has been abandoned by virtually all
commercial and military users of the spectrum. It is a skill for which
there is no modern day use, other than for hams to talk slowly with one
another. From personal experience I know the military communications
pros tend to chuckle a bit when the discussion comes to hams and mars
activities on hf.

Yes, I was in MARS when they did away with morse traffic handling.

A "...skill for which there is no modern day use..." Another hyperbole.
You
haven't said one word about weak-signal communications. I could cite
example after example in situations in which morse can be copied and
the other modes cannot. There *is* a modern-day use for morse code.

snip

Mike Speed wrote:
Where is the statistical study you read.


I read it about two months ago. I will try hard to track it down.

You said the hobby is at risk - prove it.

See above for some facts and just listen to the guys on the bands.
The membership is getting older on average. Not a good sign of
vitality.

Point conceded.


That is one of the ARRL's functions...to limit access to the bands by
requiring and adminstering a testing program. If you don't believe me
read their charter.

I did - yesterday when I was also looking at their independent audit.

The ARRL continues to support out-of-date tests
and do little to entice young blood into the hobby. The ARRL behaves
as though they were in the 1950's when every high school had a radio
club kids built crystal radios and the hobby didn't have to worry about
attracting members. Youngsters were clammoring at the gates to learn
code, take the test and get a license. Times have changed and the
young have other ways of talking with one another and otherwise finding
out about the world. In other words they are not knocking at the gate
manned by the ARRL gatekeeper. In fact they have no idea where the
gate is.


Okay that is purely your opinion - not fact. I asked for proof - not
opinion.


Here's two: Delaware Radio and EEB.

Okay , but whenever I've needed equipment or *parts*
(microwave parts, for example), I have been and am able to get
them today. Can it be the examples you cited are inconsequential?


The fact is that morse code has been abandoned by virtually all
commercial and military users of the spectrum. It is a skill for which
there is no modern day use, other than for hams to talk slowly with one
another. From personal experience I know the military communications
pros tend to chuckle a bit when the discussion comes to hams and mars
activities on hf.

Yes, I was in MARS when they did away with morse traffic handling.

A "...skill for which there is no modern day use..." Another hyperbole.
You
haven't said one word about weak-signal communications. I could cite
example after example in situations in which morse can be copied and
the other modes cannot. There *is* a modern-day use for morse code.

What possible use can there be for morse code if nobody is using it.
Morse code has evolved from once being a key component of commercial
and military communications to a form of entertainment for hams and
nothing more. Hams use it in speed and low power contests to talk with
one another. It has no value outside that realm because none of the
people involved in emergency, rescue or military work have the
equipment, training or need to use it.
Morse code had an exalted place within radio, but it's time as a
practical mode of communication has long since passed. And to continue
to require morse proficiency as a test proves little more than how far
out of touch with the real world those in control of this hobby really
are.


snip

All military services, commercial users and rescue services have
abandonded morse code in favor of faster and more reliable modes of
communicating

I'm assuming you're talking USoA and the other advanced nations as CW
continues to hold sway in the third world. INSCOM is still cranking
out 05H's for intercept operating, albeit at a far reduced rate. But CW
lives where cost of equipment, etc prohibits getting into satcomm's and
other faster, mostly better forms of commo...

Rufus Leaking wrote:
All military services, commercial users and rescue services have
abandonded morse code in favor of faster and more reliable modes of
communicating

I'm assuming you're talking USoA and the other advanced nations as CW
continues to hold sway in the third world. INSCOM is still cranking
out 05H's for intercept operating, albeit at a far reduced rate. But CW
lives where cost of equipment, etc prohibits getting into satcomm's and
other faster, mostly better forms of commo...

Well yes, since most participants on this board come from the U.S. or
one of the other "advanced" countries.