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IBOC Article
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 16:45:59 GMT, "Frank Dresser"
wrote: "David Eduardo" wrote in message .com... "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message . net... wrote in message oups.com... You realize if they ever turn on HD at night, DXing will be history. And the couple of hundred AM DXers left, most of whom are anti-radio and luddites, will just be SOL. I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet one, I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios and his internet connection. As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to changes in radio, whether formatically or technically, and are very negative towards the way stations operate. I have disassociate myself form DX organisaions as they almost all seem to be out to change radio to the detriment of those of us who work in the field. OK, but couldn't much the same be said of building preservationists? They don't like the changes and want to keep some things the way they love, despite the fact they have no ownership interest. I wouldn't call building preservationists anti-architecture, however. Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage, is skywave night listening, the other poings are moot. However, to an Alex Jones SWL-type distrustful paranoid, Ibiquity's IBOC looks hidden adgenda-ish. It's not about "CD quality sound" it's about multicasting. It is about all of this. It is about giving radio the digital buzzword, more channels, and improved AM quality. Well, it's only my opinion, but the digital buzzword will soon be worth about as much as the shopworn "turbo" buzzword of a few years ago. Already, digital is being associated with pixellated video and cellphone audio. By the time affordable IBOC recievers become available, the term digital may be a negative. If there is really much demand for improved AM quality, there would be more demand for improved AM radios. Better skirt selectivity, lower distortion dectectors and real noise blankers would be installed in everyday radios. Such things are available in hobbyist radios. Most people don't want to pay even a little extra money for a radio. I think the multichannel capability might attract the most consumer interest, if such interest develops. So, if I've got it wrong, please tell me. Is it impossible for the IBOC-AM scheme to be used for multicasting? Pretty much so. Not enough bandwidth unless analog is dropped and all the signal is devoted to digital. Yes, but ibiquity anticipates digital radio will replace analog. Then what? Will the former analog channel be replaced with digital channels? And might some of these replacement digital channels be pay channels? Paranoid minds want to know! Frank Dresser Dwardo's right. There are Luddites among us. Analog has a place in the future, probably the MW band at night included (at least from 640-1200 Kilohertz). The blowtorches don't need HD, the local stations do. |
IBOC Article
In article ,
"Frank Dresser" wrote: "David Eduardo" wrote in message . com... "Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... "David Eduardo" wrote in message . net... wrote in message oups.com... You realize if they ever turn on HD at night, DXing will be history. And the couple of hundred AM DXers left, most of whom are anti-radio and luddites, will just be SOL. I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet one, I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios and his internet connection. As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to changes in radio, whether formatically or technically, and are very negative towards the way stations operate. I have disassociate myself form DX organisaions as they almost all seem to be out to change radio to the detriment of those of us who work in the field. OK, but couldn't much the same be said of building preservationists? They don't like the changes and want to keep some things the way they love, despite the fact they have no ownership interest. I wouldn't call building preservationists anti-architecture, however. Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage, is skywave night listening, the other poings are moot. However, to an Alex Jones SWL-type distrustful paranoid, Ibiquity's IBOC looks hidden adgenda-ish. It's not about "CD quality sound" it's about multicasting. It is about all of this. It is about giving radio the digital buzzword, more channels, and improved AM quality. Well, it's only my opinion, but the digital buzzword will soon be worth about as much as the shopworn "turbo" buzzword of a few years ago. Already, digital is being associated with pixellated video and cellphone audio. By the time affordable IBOC recievers become available, the term digital may be a negative. If there is really much demand for improved AM quality, there would be more demand for improved AM radios. Better skirt selectivity, lower distortion dectectors and real noise blankers would be installed in everyday radios. Such things are available in hobbyist radios. Most people don't want to pay even a little extra money for a radio. I think the multichannel capability might attract the most consumer interest, if such interest develops. So, if I've got it wrong, please tell me. Is it impossible for the IBOC-AM scheme to be used for multicasting? Pretty much so. Not enough bandwidth unless analog is dropped and all the signal is devoted to digital. Yes, but ibiquity anticipates digital radio will replace analog. Then what? Will the former analog channel be replaced with digital channels? And might some of these replacement digital channels be pay channels? Paranoid minds want to know! This is a simple concept that many people don't seem to get. Information rate directly correlates to bandwidth in this way, higher rate and more detail means larger bandwidth. Analog or digital is just a method of encoding information. Narrow filtered analog is similar to low rate digital. It does not matter what digital method you use you can't get around the fact that a better picture or audio means you need to use more bandwidth. There is more then one way to encode the analog world into digital and back and some methods are more efficient then others but there is no magic digital encoding system comprised of one or a combination of encoding methods that will magically stuff more information into the same bandwidth. The DRM controversy has gone on for a long time where the claim that DRM sounds better then analog in the same bandwidth. This is a bunch of BS. Not only does this violate the laws of physics it further makes less sense from the standpoint of conversion of analog to digital at the transmit end and then digital back to analog at the receive end. Technically changing from analog to digital and back introduces conversion errors so DRM in the same bandwidth has to sound worse than analog. The only way DRM can sound better is to use more bandwidth than analog. So there are are two basic concepts for anyone reading the news group. DRM and IBOC claims are a bunch of BS. Analog or any digital system will sound better the more bandwidth you use. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
IBOC Article
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message .com... In article , dxAce wrote: I haven't checked on him in other news groups. He seems to be reasonable in this news group in the past but lately he has gone down hill a little in my opinion. It is tough to have a high regard for AM DXers these days when they complain about your management, programming and technical operation, and then send one after another of false DX reports. As mentioned, the last one (on Thursday) reported listening to KTNQ with a slogan that has not been used for 13 or 14 years ("Radio Fiesta") and had a log of musical selections (KTNQ is talk). Well I for one would appreciate it if you did not use the news group to bash some of the people that use it for the right reasons. This is a public forum so you will just have to tolerate on topic dissimilar opinion. You indicate a fairly egregious example in your post but I would point out that it is very unfair of you to paint the people using this news group with the broad brush of that example. This a news group and if someone appears disruptive or if the information they post is suspect for any reason put them in the kill file. The news group is an information resource on the hobby of short wave listening and is only as good as the information that is posted. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
IBOC Article
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet one, I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios and his internet connection. As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to changes in radio, whether formatically or technically, and are very negative towards the way stations operate. I have disassociate myself form DX organisaions as they almost all seem to be out to change radio to the detriment of those of us who work in the field. Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage, is skywave night listening, the other poings are moot. Two things: 1. I question the wisdom of dismissing the hobby of dx'ing in this news group. Sounds to me like you are trolling for trouble. I sepcifically clarified that it was domestic (NRC and IRCA) MW DXers. For some reason, they have chosen to attack broadcasting as an industry and profession. Some even write letters to the FCC questioning the qualifications of licensees who are doing exactly what the FCC wants: improving local service. 2. Like I already posted there is plenty of regional and national commercials on radio so the long distance reception of stations does pay off. Now you can go ahead and ignore that to continue to support your wrongheaded assumptions. I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money off skywave, and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than 200 show up in ratings outside their own market area (MSA and embedded metros). My argument is as follows. First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of regional and national commercials on AMBCB. Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network programming. Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase so the advertising does its job either way. So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station? -- Telamon Ventura, California |
IBOC Article
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 20:23:00 GMT, Telamon
wrote: This is a simple concept that many people don't seem to get. Information rate directly correlates to bandwidth in this way, higher rate and more detail means larger bandwidth. Analog or digital is just a method of encoding information. Narrow filtered analog is similar to low rate digital. It does not matter what digital method you use you can't get around the fact that a better picture or audio means you need to use more bandwidth. There is more then one way to encode the analog world into digital and back and some methods are more efficient then others but there is no magic digital encoding system comprised of one or a combination of encoding methods that will magically stuff more information into the same bandwidth. The DRM controversy has gone on for a long time where the claim that DRM sounds better then analog in the same bandwidth. This is a bunch of BS. Not only does this violate the laws of physics it further makes less sense from the standpoint of conversion of analog to digital at the transmit end and then digital back to analog at the receive end. Technically changing from analog to digital and back introduces conversion errors so DRM in the same bandwidth has to sound worse than analog. The only way DRM can sound better is to use more bandwidth than analog. So there are are two basic concepts for anyone reading the news group. DRM and IBOC claims are a bunch of BS. Analog or any digital system will sound better the more bandwidth you use. Ever hear of quadrature? |
IBOC Article
"Telamon" wrote in message ... I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money off skywave, and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than 200 show up in ratings outside their own market area (MSA and embedded metros). My argument is as follows. First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of regional and national commercials on AMBCB. Yes, there are lots of companies that advertise in many if not all the rated markets in the US. But when they do, they buy advertising that is priced based on thelocal audience in the metro to which the station is licensed. Very seldom are even adjacent markets where a station may have some listening even taken into consideration. There is no interest in skywave coverage, as most such buys are placed only for 6 AM to 7 PM, and not at night. Most of what you hear at night on AM are bonus spots and PI deals. Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network programming. Actually, very few stations carry network programming. And most have the ability to take it a la carte, and run the spots (which are the payment) when4ever they want as long as it is in 6 AM to 7 PM. Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase so the advertising does its job either way. But that is not how advertising is bought. It is bot based on Cost Per Point only in the local market. If there are fringe benefits the advertiser does not pay for them... and, again, nearly all sales are in daylight hours. So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station? Yes. Unless it is one of a handful of PI accounts (where a station is paid per inquiry) that use night radio to peddle C. C. Crane Radios and such. |
IBOC Article
"Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: It is tough to have a high regard for AM DXers these days when they complain about your management, programming and technical operation, and then send one after another of false DX reports. As mentioned, the last one (on Thursday) reported listening to KTNQ with a slogan that has not been used for 13 or 14 years ("Radio Fiesta") and had a log of musical selections (KTNQ is talk). Well I for one would appreciate it if you did not use the news group to bash some of the people that use it for the right reasons. This is a public forum so you will just have to tolerate on topic dissimilar opinion. I am specifically talking aobut AM (MW) DXers, now SW listeners or DXers. As I already stated.... You indicate a fairly egregious example in your post but I would point out that it is very unfair of you to paint the people using this news group with the broad brush of that example. We get at least one of those examples a week... and it has been a long time since we got a truthful AM DX report. This a news group and if someone appears disruptive or if the information they post is suspect for any reason put them in the kill file. The news group is an information resource on the hobby of short wave listening and is only as good as the information that is posted. And knowing how there are DXers who are lying does not help those who don't to understand why verie or QSL returns have declined? -- Telamon Ventura, California |
IBOC Article
"David" wrote in message ... Analog has a place in the future, probably the MW band at night included (at least from 640-1200 Kilohertz). The blowtorches don't need HD, the local stations do. Many blowtorches do, too, on AM/MW. Our KTNQ is only listenable within its 10 mv/m to 12 mv/m contour due to local noise levels in LA. The HD signal actually covers better than the 10 mv/m analog one does... on a 50 kw AM. |
IBOC Article
Telamon wrote:
In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet one, I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios and his internet connection. As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to changes in radio, whether formatically or technically, and are very negative towards the way stations operate. I have disassociate myself form DX organisaions as they almost all seem to be out to change radio to the detriment of those of us who work in the field. Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage, is skywave night listening, the other poings are moot. Two things: 1. I question the wisdom of dismissing the hobby of dx'ing in this news group. Sounds to me like you are trolling for trouble. I sepcifically clarified that it was domestic (NRC and IRCA) MW DXers. For some reason, they have chosen to attack broadcasting as an industry and profession. Some even write letters to the FCC questioning the qualifications of licensees who are doing exactly what the FCC wants: improving local service. 2. Like I already posted there is plenty of regional and national commercials on radio so the long distance reception of stations does pay off. Now you can go ahead and ignore that to continue to support your wrongheaded assumptions. I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money off skywave, and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than 200 show up in ratings outside their own market area (MSA and embedded metros). My argument is as follows. First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of regional and national commercials on AMBCB. Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network programming. Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase so the advertising does its job either way. So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station? Actually, yes. There is no mechanism by which they can meaningfully track skywave impressions to a message. The numbers are so low as to be statistical zero. So, Arbitron diaries track locally relevant signals. Out of market signals are not even considered unless listening levels become statistically significant. And from my experience, when station manglement has made the trip to actually see the survey diaries personally, they disregarded out of market listening as 1) erroneous reporting, or 2) anomalous reception...either of which gets the out of market station report tossed. Response to adverisements happens on multiple levels. Your perception of response through sales is correct, but incomplete. Advertisers, and advertising agencies use complex, and sometimes medium/source specific, methods to track advertising. This may be as simple as: "Tell 'em Peter sent you".....to as complex as logged IP addresses connecting to referenced web pages, and tracking cookies. Encoded coupons with tracking data that's correlated to credit card data at POP. Or multiple toll free numbers...one used for each station on the buy. (I was even involved in a campaign where we had a separate toll free number for each daypart at each station...each number active in the local ADI. Out of market responses could not connect to the toll free numbers.) In all cases of my direct experience, less than 10 total out of market reception reports came in. All of them were disregarded as either anomalous and of no consequence, or erroneous and of no value. There have been isolated cases, however, of non local advertisers buying a station specifically for its reach. In the 60's a motorcycle shop in Tennessee bought WLS, ran only between sunset and sunrise, and did surprisingly well. This went on for years. In the 70's I remember buying tape decks and other components from Playback, in Chicago, in response to advertisements I heard on WLS. I was living in Iowa at the time. First comment, each transaction: "You're in Radio, aren't you?" Apparently, a lot of disc jockeys bought their stereo gear from Playback in response to the spots on WLS. Radio people do NOT get listening credit either in advertising tracking data, or Arbitron. I remember in high school...WLS overtook KXOK at night among highschoolers in North St Louis County. But advertising had little effect on that listener base. National advertising that generated sales did so locally. And it was assumed that KXOK, later KSLQ, and KSHE, running the same spots, were responsible. And we all at one time or another listened to Beaker street on KAAY. Though I don't recall any out of market advertising. KMOX, St Louis also ran spots for out of market advertisers, with similar success to WLS about this time. But, again these were unusual circumstances. And eventually, as skywave listening declined, the practice stopped. In each case, though, these were local advertisers making their own decisions. Today, no agency would make such a buy. Even though the commissions could be considerably higher on a highly rated major market station. Network programming...yes many stations carry it. But usually, a station can locally be found to carry the program of interest. And its advertising. In cases where a local affiliate can't be found, out of market listening is not a consideration. And again, there is no effective way of tracking it. Nor any compelling motivation to make the effort for a statistical zero. Not that it doesn't happen. But statistically, it's below the noise floor. So, there is no real motivation to consider the DX audience. Fringe, yes, or maybe. Skywave, no. Because there is no significance to the advertising effectiveness of skywave listening--there's no money in it. If there were a dollar to be made....believe me Radio would claw each other's eyes out to snap it up, and do whatever it takes to generate it. But until there is...there's no reason for Radio to give it a first thought, much less a second. |
IBOC Article
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 20:45:21 GMT, Telamon
wrote: Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase so the advertising does its job either way. So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station? They can tell because frequently each station gets a commercial with a different 800 number on it. |
IBOC Article
On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:37:53 GMT, "David Eduardo"
wrote: "David" wrote in message .. . Analog has a place in the future, probably the MW band at night included (at least from 640-1200 Kilohertz). The blowtorches don't need HD, the local stations do. Many blowtorches do, too, on AM/MW. Our KTNQ is only listenable within its 10 mv/m to 12 mv/m contour due to local noise levels in LA. The HD signal actually covers better than the 10 mv/m analog one does... on a 50 kw AM. I can't get anything in Santa Clarita, except KNX. |
IBOC Article
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money off skywave, and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than 200 show up in ratings outside their own market area (MSA and embedded metros). My argument is as follows. First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of regional and national commercials on AMBCB. Yes, there are lots of companies that advertise in many if not all the rated markets in the US. But when they do, they buy advertising that is priced based on thelocal audience in the metro to which the station is licensed. Very seldom are even adjacent markets where a station may have some listening even taken into consideration. There is no interest in skywave coverage, as most such buys are placed only for 6 AM to 7 PM, and not at night. Most of what you hear at night on AM are bonus spots and PI deals. Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network programming. Actually, very few stations carry network programming. And most have the ability to take it a la carte, and run the spots (which are the payment) when4ever they want as long as it is in 6 AM to 7 PM. Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase so the advertising does its job either way. But that is not how advertising is bought. It is bot based on Cost Per Point only in the local market. If there are fringe benefits the advertiser does not pay for them... and, again, nearly all sales are in daylight hours. So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station? Yes. Unless it is one of a handful of PI accounts (where a station is paid per inquiry) that use night radio to peddle C. C. Crane Radios and such. Thanks for your thoughtful reply. You and Peter seem to be two people that have knowledge of the AMBCB market. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
IBOC Article
In article ,
D Peter Maus wrote: Telamon wrote: In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message . .. In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet one, I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios and his internet connection. As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to changes in radio, whether formatically or technically, and are very negative towards the way stations operate. I have disassociate myself form DX organisaions as they almost all seem to be out to change radio to the detriment of those of us who work in the field. Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage, is skywave night listening, the other poings are moot. Two things: 1. I question the wisdom of dismissing the hobby of dx'ing in this news group. Sounds to me like you are trolling for trouble. I sepcifically clarified that it was domestic (NRC and IRCA) MW DXers. For some reason, they have chosen to attack broadcasting as an industry and profession. Some even write letters to the FCC questioning the qualifications of licensees who are doing exactly what the FCC wants: improving local service. 2. Like I already posted there is plenty of regional and national commercials on radio so the long distance reception of stations does pay off. Now you can go ahead and ignore that to continue to support your wrongheaded assumptions. I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money off skywave, and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than 200 show up in ratings outside their own market area (MSA and embedded metros). My argument is as follows. First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of regional and national commercials on AMBCB. Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network programming. Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase so the advertising does its job either way. So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station? Actually, yes. There is no mechanism by which they can meaningfully track skywave impressions to a message. The numbers are so low as to be statistical zero. So, Arbitron diaries track locally relevant signals. Out of market signals are not even considered unless listening levels become statistically significant. And from my experience, when station manglement has made the trip to actually see the survey diaries personally, they disregarded out of market listening as 1) erroneous reporting, or 2) anomalous reception...either of which gets the out of market station report tossed. Response to adverisements happens on multiple levels. Your perception of response through sales is correct, but incomplete. Advertisers, and advertising agencies use complex, and sometimes medium/source specific, methods to track advertising. This may be as simple as: "Tell 'em Peter sent you".....to as complex as logged IP addresses connecting to referenced web pages, and tracking cookies. Encoded coupons with tracking data that's correlated to credit card data at POP. Or multiple toll free numbers...one used for each station on the buy. (I was even involved in a campaign where we had a separate toll free number for each daypart at each station...each number active in the local ADI. Out of market responses could not connect to the toll free numbers.) In all cases of my direct experience, less than 10 total out of market reception reports came in. All of them were disregarded as either anomalous and of no consequence, or erroneous and of no value. There have been isolated cases, however, of non local advertisers buying a station specifically for its reach. In the 60's a motorcycle shop in Tennessee bought WLS, ran only between sunset and sunrise, and did surprisingly well. This went on for years. In the 70's I remember buying tape decks and other components from Playback, in Chicago, in response to advertisements I heard on WLS. I was living in Iowa at the time. First comment, each transaction: "You're in Radio, aren't you?" Apparently, a lot of disc jockeys bought their stereo gear from Playback in response to the spots on WLS. Radio people do NOT get listening credit either in advertising tracking data, or Arbitron. I remember in high school...WLS overtook KXOK at night among highschoolers in North St Louis County. But advertising had little effect on that listener base. National advertising that generated sales did so locally. And it was assumed that KXOK, later KSLQ, and KSHE, running the same spots, were responsible. And we all at one time or another listened to Beaker street on KAAY. Though I don't recall any out of market advertising. KMOX, St Louis also ran spots for out of market advertisers, with similar success to WLS about this time. But, again these were unusual circumstances. And eventually, as skywave listening declined, the practice stopped. In each case, though, these were local advertisers making their own decisions. Today, no agency would make such a buy. Even though the commissions could be considerably higher on a highly rated major market station. Network programming...yes many stations carry it. But usually, a station can locally be found to carry the program of interest. And its advertising. In cases where a local affiliate can't be found, out of market listening is not a consideration. And again, there is no effective way of tracking it. Nor any compelling motivation to make the effort for a statistical zero. Not that it doesn't happen. But statistically, it's below the noise floor. So, there is no real motivation to consider the DX audience. Fringe, yes, or maybe. Skywave, no. Because there is no significance to the advertising effectiveness of skywave listening--there's no money in it. If there were a dollar to be made....believe me Radio would claw each other's eyes out to snap it up, and do whatever it takes to generate it. But until there is...there's no reason for Radio to give it a first thought, much less a second. Well, I guess I'm an odd duck when it comes to radio. I spend most of my time listening to the out of the market area. I live in Ventura but listen to stations up and down the coast because they carry programming I can't get locally. For example on a regular basis I listen to KFI, KNX and KABC in LA, KOGO in San Diego, KGO in San Francisco, KOH in Reno Nevada to name just a few. Locally I only listen to KVTA in Ventura for AMBCB. I listen to AMBCB for similar reasons as I listen to short wave, news and information. Short wave is a larger scope of world events. If I want music in the car its classical music on one of several public service stations or the one commercial station in LA, KMZT FM 105.1. Usually I hear on the national advertising that the show host has you enter their name on a web page or tell the phone operator their name when placing an order so you get a special discount or extra. The list of stuff I hear advertised on AMBCB nationally is nearly endless as I listen to several syndicated talk show host programs. This is the majority of my AMBCB listening. The exception would be KNX, which is news/talk/weather most of the time. They have some local programming at times but I don't listen to it. So that me spending most of my AMBCB listening time to syndicated national talk/news/business information radio with a good percentage of commercials broadcast to the national audience and the rest local injected by the station to which I'm currently listening. Usually I can get a syndicated program on several stations and I pick the one that has the least annoying local commercials. Kind of a funny reason to determine which station I listen too. On KVTA there is local jewelry dealer and a BMW dealer whose commercials I just can't stand at all so I'll switch to another more distant station to hear the same program. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
IBOC Article
"David" wrote in message ... On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 20:45:21 GMT, Telamon wrote: Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase so the advertising does its job either way. So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station? They can tell because frequently each station gets a commercial with a different 800 number on it. Those 800 number ads are seldom paid commercials. They are paid for based on the number of calls, which is often zero... but they run in times where the station has nothing salable so there is some gain. You will find them used as filler in syndicated shows, which have commercial windows. The syndicator puts these spots in, and if the station has no better spots (sold ones) they run as fill. This is like the 800 adds on cable TV. If the local cable system has paid ads, they superimpose them. Otherwise, they make a few cents on the "100 Greatest Hymns" collection. |
IBOC Article
"David" wrote in message ... On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 21:37:53 GMT, "David Eduardo" wrote: "David" wrote in message . .. Analog has a place in the future, probably the MW band at night included (at least from 640-1200 Kilohertz). The blowtorches don't need HD, the local stations do. Many blowtorches do, too, on AM/MW. Our KTNQ is only listenable within its 10 mv/m to 12 mv/m contour due to local noise levels in LA. The HD signal actually covers better than the 10 mv/m analog one does... on a 50 kw AM. I can't get anything in Santa Clarita, except KNX. Proves the case, doesn't it? |
IBOC Article
"Telamon" wrote in message ... Thanks for your thoughtful reply. You and Peter seem to be two people that have knowledge of the AMBCB market. Peter is a pro, and generally more patient than I am (er, ah, well...) and always has interesting points of view. Thanks for the comment. All in all, there is essentially no strong revenue stream for AM radio after 7 or 8 PM unless there is play by play sports. |
IBOC Article
"Telamon" wrote in message ... So that me spending most of my AMBCB listening time to syndicated national talk/news/business information radio with a good percentage of commercials broadcast to the national audience and the rest local injected by the station to which I'm currently listening. Actually, the way those syndicated shows are sold to advertisers is by market penetration. The syndicator picks off several minutes an hour in the show that they sell, and in exchange, the station gets nearly all shows for free. The syndicator has a list of markets, and sells based on the total market by market reach. The advertiser is buying 50 or 100 or 300 markets, not "national coverage." A syndicated night show is rough as few advertisers buy radio at night. This is why often stations rerun daytime shows at night. The syndicator's profit comes 100% from the sale of the spot inventory, except for a few big shows like Rush which also get paid cash from the stations. |
IBOC Article
This is the sad truth, but it doesn't make things any better for MW
DXers.Us hobbyists have to stop wasting time with lamentations, though, and get the radio turned on and see what IS out there now free for the taking. |
IBOC Article
May you be correct !
|
IBOC Article
On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 00:40:28 GMT, "David Eduardo"
wrote: "David" wrote in message .. . On Mon, 06 Mar 2006 20:45:21 GMT, Telamon wrote: Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase so the advertising does its job either way. So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station? They can tell because frequently each station gets a commercial with a different 800 number on it. Those 800 number ads are seldom paid commercials. They are paid for based on the number of calls, which is often zero... but they run in times where the station has nothing salable so there is some gain. You will find them used as filler in syndicated shows, which have commercial windows. The syndicator puts these spots in, and if the station has no better spots (sold ones) they run as fill. This is like the 800 adds on cable TV. If the local cable system has paid ads, they superimpose them. Otherwise, they make a few cents on the "100 Greatest Hymns" collection. I am painfully aware of how Direct Response works. |
IBOC Article
On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 00:41:02 GMT, "David Eduardo"
wrote: I can't get anything in Santa Clarita, except KNX. Proves the case, doesn't it? As long as Citadel doesn't mess up KGO, I'll be OK. I can get some FM HD clear as a bell, whereas the stereo is really bad. Sol Levine's running 1260/540 AM audio on KMZT's second HD channel. I like that. |
IBOC Article
"Telamon" wrote in message ... [snip] So there are are two basic concepts for anyone reading the news group. DRM and IBOC claims are a bunch of BS. Analog or any digital system will sound better the more bandwidth you use. I've had a frightening thought. What if I'm wrong and ibiquity's right? What if there really are lots of people yearning for the IBOC sound? Underwater tin can audio probably sounds normal to less expirenced ears. Hell, we embraced electonic distortion as a method for making music. What might the younger generation be coming to? I'm beginning to appreciate the fear and loathing my Grandfather must have felt when he first heard Link Wray. Frank Dresser |
IBOC Article
Frank Dresser wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message ... [snip] So there are are two basic concepts for anyone reading the news group. DRM and IBOC claims are a bunch of BS. Analog or any digital system will sound better the more bandwidth you use. I've had a frightening thought. What if I'm wrong and ibiquity's right? What if there really are lots of people yearning for the IBOC sound? Underwater tin can audio probably sounds normal to less expirenced ears. Hell, we embraced electonic distortion as a method for making music. What might the younger generation be coming to? I'm beginning to appreciate the fear and loathing my Grandfather must have felt when he first heard Link Wray. I do notice today that WBBM 780 Chicago has their IBOC off. Hopefully they'll keep it off. IBOC = QRM dxAce Michigan USA |
IBOC Article
Telamon wrote:
In article , D Peter Maus wrote: Telamon wrote: In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message . .. In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet one, I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios and his internet connection. As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to changes in radio, whether formatically or technically, and are very negative towards the way stations operate. I have disassociate myself form DX organisaions as they almost all seem to be out to change radio to the detriment of those of us who work in the field. Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage, is skywave night listening, the other poings are moot. Two things: 1. I question the wisdom of dismissing the hobby of dx'ing in this news group. Sounds to me like you are trolling for trouble. I sepcifically clarified that it was domestic (NRC and IRCA) MW DXers. For some reason, they have chosen to attack broadcasting as an industry and profession. Some even write letters to the FCC questioning the qualifications of licensees who are doing exactly what the FCC wants: improving local service. 2. Like I already posted there is plenty of regional and national commercials on radio so the long distance reception of stations does pay off. Now you can go ahead and ignore that to continue to support your wrongheaded assumptions. I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money off skywave, and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than 200 show up in ratings outside their own market area (MSA and embedded metros). My argument is as follows. First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of regional and national commercials on AMBCB. Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network programming. Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase so the advertising does its job either way. So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station? Actually, yes. There is no mechanism by which they can meaningfully track skywave impressions to a message. The numbers are so low as to be statistical zero. So, Arbitron diaries track locally relevant signals. Out of market signals are not even considered unless listening levels become statistically significant. And from my experience, when station manglement has made the trip to actually see the survey diaries personally, they disregarded out of market listening as 1) erroneous reporting, or 2) anomalous reception...either of which gets the out of market station report tossed. Response to adverisements happens on multiple levels. Your perception of response through sales is correct, but incomplete. Advertisers, and advertising agencies use complex, and sometimes medium/source specific, methods to track advertising. This may be as simple as: "Tell 'em Peter sent you".....to as complex as logged IP addresses connecting to referenced web pages, and tracking cookies. Encoded coupons with tracking data that's correlated to credit card data at POP. Or multiple toll free numbers...one used for each station on the buy. (I was even involved in a campaign where we had a separate toll free number for each daypart at each station...each number active in the local ADI. Out of market responses could not connect to the toll free numbers.) In all cases of my direct experience, less than 10 total out of market reception reports came in. All of them were disregarded as either anomalous and of no consequence, or erroneous and of no value. There have been isolated cases, however, of non local advertisers buying a station specifically for its reach. In the 60's a motorcycle shop in Tennessee bought WLS, ran only between sunset and sunrise, and did surprisingly well. This went on for years. In the 70's I remember buying tape decks and other components from Playback, in Chicago, in response to advertisements I heard on WLS. I was living in Iowa at the time. First comment, each transaction: "You're in Radio, aren't you?" Apparently, a lot of disc jockeys bought their stereo gear from Playback in response to the spots on WLS. Radio people do NOT get listening credit either in advertising tracking data, or Arbitron. I remember in high school...WLS overtook KXOK at night among highschoolers in North St Louis County. But advertising had little effect on that listener base. National advertising that generated sales did so locally. And it was assumed that KXOK, later KSLQ, and KSHE, running the same spots, were responsible. And we all at one time or another listened to Beaker street on KAAY. Though I don't recall any out of market advertising. KMOX, St Louis also ran spots for out of market advertisers, with similar success to WLS about this time. But, again these were unusual circumstances. And eventually, as skywave listening declined, the practice stopped. In each case, though, these were local advertisers making their own decisions. Today, no agency would make such a buy. Even though the commissions could be considerably higher on a highly rated major market station. Network programming...yes many stations carry it. But usually, a station can locally be found to carry the program of interest. And its advertising. In cases where a local affiliate can't be found, out of market listening is not a consideration. And again, there is no effective way of tracking it. Nor any compelling motivation to make the effort for a statistical zero. Not that it doesn't happen. But statistically, it's below the noise floor. So, there is no real motivation to consider the DX audience. Fringe, yes, or maybe. Skywave, no. Because there is no significance to the advertising effectiveness of skywave listening--there's no money in it. If there were a dollar to be made....believe me Radio would claw each other's eyes out to snap it up, and do whatever it takes to generate it. But until there is...there's no reason for Radio to give it a first thought, much less a second. Well, I guess I'm an odd duck when it comes to radio. I spend most of my time listening to the out of the market area. I live in Ventura but listen to stations up and down the coast because they carry programming I can't get locally. For example on a regular basis I listen to KFI, KNX and KABC in LA, KOGO in San Diego, KGO in San Francisco, KOH in Reno Nevada to name just a few. Locally I only listen to KVTA in Ventura for AMBCB. Interesting coincidence, that. I was the voice of KVTA for a number of years. There is a difference between fringe listening, and out of market DXing. Fringe listening happens around nearly all large markets. And where there is a substantial statistically significant signal, there is actually ratings data collected about the fringe audience. WLS used to show up when I was programming the station in Decatur. There were only 4 stations native to Decatur, after all. In fact, KSD, St Louis also showed up in the Decatur book from time to time. Interestingly KMOX did not, but WGN did also. WBBM has a large downstate following. And also shows up in the books occasionally. I worked at a couple of blowtorches down south before returning to Chicago. It was great experience. And we had coverage in 38 states. Ownership was very accessible, so there were some very protracted conversations about how we might turn that reach into something more than wasted electricity. The primary partner was a jock himself, who grew up listening to the stations while touring as a swing band musician, so he understood the concept of out of market listening, and long distance reach. But neither he, nor the sales staff, which actually sold baggies of tire air from Bob Will's station wagon could never find a way to tap the DX audience. No agency wanted to hear it. No local direct client understood the benefit. Truth is, the numbers said there wasn't any. Advertising buys aren't based on such data. The figures are particularly small. WGN, WLS, WBBM, when they did show up weren't even also rans compared to the native signals. So, again, if you responded to a spot on WBBM and made a purchase, it was assumed that WSOY was the carrier that made the impression. Consider the Shortwave audience. That's virtually entirely a DX audience, and numbers can be humongous. BBC was estimating 130 million cume in 1990. All expense. No return. And no way to contribute to operating costs with receiver licenses. DRM, and Worldspace, though can change THAT. Or consider the case of WNYW, Radio New York Worldwide. IIRC, that was Bonneville. A commercial shortwave station. A CBS affiliate and they ran a full boat of commercials. With an audience that spanned two hemispheres. A TREMENDOUS radio station that was as solid and entertaining to listen to as any ever on the dial. But there was no way to independently measure the audience. Radio sales at the time weren't nearly as scientific as the are today, so a buy that was accompanied by an uptick in local sales could be credited with the gain. Trouble is that national/international product marketing is the trickiest of businesses. Products are sold locally. Listening, especially to shortwave, is scattered over a wide area. Often with only a few listener impressions in hundreds of square miles. So, purchases in some regions may require quite the drive to find the product. With many practical limitations to making the trip. Coca-Cola isn't going to pay National network rates on a shortwave radio station for a spot that may produce a sale of one or two cases in South Fox Crotch, Rhodesia. Or East Weasel Penis Portugal. Getting the name out is one thing. And with WNYW's reach, getting the name out is certainly a cake walk. But marketing to actually spur sales would have to be done locally. Starting with making the product available, and known to the locals en masse. So, here you have a case of worldwide reach and tremendous audience potential, but absolutely no way to sell it. So it is with AMBCB DX. Huge reach, but no way to sell it. So they don't. Marketing is done locally. With regional or national support, but the buy is made with direct measurable impressions in mind. And on radio stations that have local reach in markets where the product is available. Even national buys are made only when the product is marketed nationally. No sense paying for reach where product can't be sold. So there are very few products that are actually advertised nationally. Many, many more are advertised regionally, and locally, with marketing presence built up locally. The wider area is only support for the local marketing effort. Because sales are local. If I do a spot for Toyota Trucks that runs throughout the Gulf States, the buy is specifically targeted in markets where there are active, and participating Toyota Truck dealers. And that's not every market in a region, surprisingly. And stations are not bought based on their skywave reach. They're bought based on the local ratings in their ADI. Because if an impression produces a sale, the truck is going to be bought locally. The buy may be regional, but the spots are still targeted for the benefit of local retailers. Local sales. A regional buy only exists to support the local marketing effort. So, because reach beyond the fringe has not been demostrated to be of saleable value, it's not considered a benefit to the advertiser. If it's not a benefit to the advertiser, it's of no value to the station and those listeners are orphaned. No one cares if they can hear the station or not. A whole block of St Louis Cardinals fans, those ex-pat St Louisans listening to KMOX's enormous signal for their Red Birds fix, have been literally cut off from the slip stream by the move of the Cards from KMOX to KTRS down the dial. KTRS has the second worst signal in the St Louis area, and the worst night signal since KWK's single site decades ago. That means thousands of listeners will no longer have the convenience of a strong signal carrying the game when they want their Cardinals fix. Both at great distances and right there in the St Louis area. The solution is to fill the coverage map with local FM's in and around St Louis and expand the Cardinals network throughout Missouri and Illinois, Arkansas and, I believe, Iowa. Most of them smaller signals, most FM. All local. And none of them permitting the reach from Phoenix to Puxutawney that would put Cardinals fans back within earshot of their team. Why did the Cards make this move? Because KTRS made them a significant offer in increased rights fees, and a 50% interest in the station. In other words, they abandoned the blowtorch signal for what they believed were better and more saleable options locally. Because the huge reach of KMOX was of no saleable value, it wasn't considered. (The wisdom of selling an inferiour signal against the hired assassins at KMOX is a discussion for another time.) While the Cardinals acknowledge that they have fans over the much wider area, the coverage is only useful if it's saleable. And advertising buys are local. Based on coverage, and audience in the ADI. DX is of no saleable interest. Cardinals fans orphaned by the deal have XM as an option. And the Cardinals have entered into an agreement with XM for their own outlet on the service. This in addition to MLB's contract with XM. Why? Because there's money in it. XM is a subscription service. There is advertising, yes. But the advertising/sales model of XM/Sirius is still evolving. And with Karmazin in one of the big chairs, you can bet there will be saleable commodities on both XM and Sirius. But, for now, again, the issue for the Cards is not reach. But subscription royalties. In other words, revenue. I listen to AMBCB for similar reasons as I listen to short wave, news and information. Short wave is a larger scope of world events. If I want music in the car its classical music on one of several public service stations or the one commercial station in LA, KMZT FM 105.1. Usually I hear on the national advertising that the show host has you enter their name on a web page or tell the phone operator their name when placing an order so you get a special discount or extra. That's part of the tracking strategy. And it's not just national. A lot of the stations here refer to webpages where a listener clicks on the 'radio' icon and enters the name of the host, as well. The list of stuff I hear advertised on AMBCB nationally is nearly endless as I listen to several syndicated talk show host programs. This is the majority of my AMBCB listening. The exception would be KNX, which is news/talk/weather most of the time. They have some local programming at times but I don't listen to it. So that me spending most of my AMBCB listening time to syndicated national talk/news/business information radio with a good percentage of commercials broadcast to the national audience and the rest local injected by the station to which I'm currently listening. Usually I can get a syndicated program on several stations and I pick the one that has the least annoying local commercials. Kind of a funny reason to determine which station I listen too. On KVTA there is local jewelry dealer and a BMW dealer whose commercials I just can't stand at all so I'll switch to another more distant station to hear the same program. Careful...now you're affecting MY revenue stream. :) |
IBOC Article
D Peter Maus wrote: Telamon wrote: In article , D Peter Maus wrote: Telamon wrote: In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message . .. In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet one, I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios and his internet connection. As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to changes in radio, whether formatically or technically, and are very negative towards the way stations operate. I have disassociate myself form DX organisaions as they almost all seem to be out to change radio to the detriment of those of us who work in the field. Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage, is skywave night listening, the other poings are moot. Two things: 1. I question the wisdom of dismissing the hobby of dx'ing in this news group. Sounds to me like you are trolling for trouble. I sepcifically clarified that it was domestic (NRC and IRCA) MW DXers. For some reason, they have chosen to attack broadcasting as an industry and profession. Some even write letters to the FCC questioning the qualifications of licensees who are doing exactly what the FCC wants: improving local service. 2. Like I already posted there is plenty of regional and national commercials on radio so the long distance reception of stations does pay off. Now you can go ahead and ignore that to continue to support your wrongheaded assumptions. I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money off skywave, and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than 200 show up in ratings outside their own market area (MSA and embedded metros). My argument is as follows. First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of regional and national commercials on AMBCB. Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network programming. Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase so the advertising does its job either way. So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station? Actually, yes. There is no mechanism by which they can meaningfully track skywave impressions to a message. The numbers are so low as to be statistical zero. So, Arbitron diaries track locally relevant signals. Out of market signals are not even considered unless listening levels become statistically significant. And from my experience, when station manglement has made the trip to actually see the survey diaries personally, they disregarded out of market listening as 1) erroneous reporting, or 2) anomalous reception...either of which gets the out of market station report tossed. Response to adverisements happens on multiple levels. Your perception of response through sales is correct, but incomplete. Advertisers, and advertising agencies use complex, and sometimes medium/source specific, methods to track advertising. This may be as simple as: "Tell 'em Peter sent you".....to as complex as logged IP addresses connecting to referenced web pages, and tracking cookies. Encoded coupons with tracking data that's correlated to credit card data at POP. Or multiple toll free numbers...one used for each station on the buy. (I was even involved in a campaign where we had a separate toll free number for each daypart at each station...each number active in the local ADI. Out of market responses could not connect to the toll free numbers.) In all cases of my direct experience, less than 10 total out of market reception reports came in. All of them were disregarded as either anomalous and of no consequence, or erroneous and of no value. There have been isolated cases, however, of non local advertisers buying a station specifically for its reach. In the 60's a motorcycle shop in Tennessee bought WLS, ran only between sunset and sunrise, and did surprisingly well. This went on for years. In the 70's I remember buying tape decks and other components from Playback, in Chicago, in response to advertisements I heard on WLS. I was living in Iowa at the time. First comment, each transaction: "You're in Radio, aren't you?" Apparently, a lot of disc jockeys bought their stereo gear from Playback in response to the spots on WLS. Radio people do NOT get listening credit either in advertising tracking data, or Arbitron. I remember in high school...WLS overtook KXOK at night among highschoolers in North St Louis County. But advertising had little effect on that listener base. National advertising that generated sales did so locally. And it was assumed that KXOK, later KSLQ, and KSHE, running the same spots, were responsible. And we all at one time or another listened to Beaker street on KAAY. Though I don't recall any out of market advertising. KMOX, St Louis also ran spots for out of market advertisers, with similar success to WLS about this time. But, again these were unusual circumstances. And eventually, as skywave listening declined, the practice stopped. In each case, though, these were local advertisers making their own decisions. Today, no agency would make such a buy. Even though the commissions could be considerably higher on a highly rated major market station. Network programming...yes many stations carry it. But usually, a station can locally be found to carry the program of interest. And its advertising. In cases where a local affiliate can't be found, out of market listening is not a consideration. And again, there is no effective way of tracking it. Nor any compelling motivation to make the effort for a statistical zero. Not that it doesn't happen. But statistically, it's below the noise floor. So, there is no real motivation to consider the DX audience. Fringe, yes, or maybe. Skywave, no. Because there is no significance to the advertising effectiveness of skywave listening--there's no money in it. If there were a dollar to be made....believe me Radio would claw each other's eyes out to snap it up, and do whatever it takes to generate it. But until there is...there's no reason for Radio to give it a first thought, much less a second. Well, I guess I'm an odd duck when it comes to radio. I spend most of my time listening to the out of the market area. I live in Ventura but listen to stations up and down the coast because they carry programming I can't get locally. For example on a regular basis I listen to KFI, KNX and KABC in LA, KOGO in San Diego, KGO in San Francisco, KOH in Reno Nevada to name just a few. Locally I only listen to KVTA in Ventura for AMBCB. Interesting coincidence, that. I was the voice of KVTA for a number of years. There is a difference between fringe listening, and out of market DXing. Fringe listening happens around nearly all large markets. And where there is a substantial statistically significant signal, there is actually ratings data collected about the fringe audience. WLS used to show up when I was programming the station in Decatur. There were only 4 stations native to Decatur, after all. In fact, KSD, St Louis also showed up in the Decatur book from time to time. Interestingly KMOX did not, but WGN did also. WBBM has a large downstate following. And also shows up in the books occasionally. I worked at a couple of blowtorches down south before returning to Chicago. It was great experience. And we had coverage in 38 states. Ownership was very accessible, so there were some very protracted conversations about how we might turn that reach into something more than wasted electricity. The primary partner was a jock himself, who grew up listening to the stations while touring as a swing band musician, so he understood the concept of out of market listening, and long distance reach. But neither he, nor the sales staff, which actually sold baggies of tire air from Bob Will's station wagon could never find a way to tap the DX audience. No agency wanted to hear it. No local direct client understood the benefit. Truth is, the numbers said there wasn't any. Advertising buys aren't based on such data. The figures are particularly small. WGN, WLS, WBBM, when they did show up weren't even also rans compared to the native signals. So, again, if you responded to a spot on WBBM and made a purchase, it was assumed that WSOY was the carrier that made the impression. Consider the Shortwave audience. That's virtually entirely a DX audience, and numbers can be humongous. BBC was estimating 130 million cume in 1990. All expense. No return. And no way to contribute to operating costs with receiver licenses. DRM, and Worldspace, though can change THAT. Or consider the case of WNYW, Radio New York Worldwide. IIRC, that was Bonneville. A commercial shortwave station. A CBS affiliate and they ran a full boat of commercials. With an audience that spanned two hemispheres. A TREMENDOUS radio station that was as solid and entertaining to listen to as any ever on the dial. But there was no way to independently measure the audience. Radio sales at the time weren't nearly as scientific as the are today, so a buy that was accompanied by an uptick in local sales could be credited with the gain. Trouble is that national/international product marketing is the trickiest of businesses. Products are sold locally. Listening, especially to shortwave, is scattered over a wide area. Often with only a few listener impressions in hundreds of square miles. So, purchases in some regions may require quite the drive to find the product. With many practical limitations to making the trip. Coca-Cola isn't going to pay National network rates on a shortwave radio station for a spot that may produce a sale of one or two cases in South Fox Crotch, Rhodesia. Or East Weasel Penis Portugal. Getting the name out is one thing. And with WNYW's reach, getting the name out is certainly a cake walk. But marketing to actually spur sales would have to be done locally. Starting with making the product available, and known to the locals en masse. So, here you have a case of worldwide reach and tremendous audience potential, but absolutely no way to sell it. So it is with AMBCB DX. Huge reach, but no way to sell it. So they don't. Marketing is done locally. With regional or national support, but the buy is made with direct measurable impressions in mind. And on radio stations that have local reach in markets where the product is available. Even national buys are made only when the product is marketed nationally. No sense paying for reach where product can't be sold. So there are very few products that are actually advertised nationally. Many, many more are advertised regionally, and locally, with marketing presence built up locally. The wider area is only support for the local marketing effort. Because sales are local. If I do a spot for Toyota Trucks that runs throughout the Gulf States, the buy is specifically targeted in markets where there are active, and participating Toyota Truck dealers. And that's not every market in a region, surprisingly. And stations are not bought based on their skywave reach. They're bought based on the local ratings in their ADI. Because if an impression produces a sale, the truck is going to be bought locally. The buy may be regional, but the spots are still targeted for the benefit of local retailers. Local sales. A regional buy only exists to support the local marketing effort. So, because reach beyond the fringe has not been demostrated to be of saleable value, it's not considered a benefit to the advertiser. If it's not a benefit to the advertiser, it's of no value to the station and those listeners are orphaned. No one cares if they can hear the station or not. A whole block of St Louis Cardinals fans, those ex-pat St Louisans listening to KMOX's enormous signal for their Red Birds fix, have been literally cut off from the slip stream by the move of the Cards from KMOX to KTRS down the dial. KTRS has the second worst signal in the St Louis area, and the worst night signal since KWK's single site decades ago. That means thousands of listeners will no longer have the convenience of a strong signal carrying the game when they want their Cardinals fix. Both at great distances and right there in the St Louis area. The solution is to fill the coverage map with local FM's in and around St Louis and expand the Cardinals network throughout Missouri and Illinois, Arkansas and, I believe, Iowa. Most of them smaller signals, most FM. All local. And none of them permitting the reach from Phoenix to Puxutawney that would put Cardinals fans back within earshot of their team. Why did the Cards make this move? Because KTRS made them a significant offer in increased rights fees, and a 50% interest in the station. In other words, they abandoned the blowtorch signal for what they believed were better and more saleable options locally. Because the huge reach of KMOX was of no saleable value, it wasn't considered. (The wisdom of selling an inferiour signal against the hired assassins at KMOX is a discussion for another time.) While the Cardinals acknowledge that they have fans over the much wider area, the coverage is only useful if it's saleable. And advertising buys are local. Based on coverage, and audience in the ADI. DX is of no saleable interest. Cardinals fans orphaned by the deal have XM as an option. And the Cardinals have entered into an agreement with XM for their own outlet on the service. This in addition to MLB's contract with XM. Why? Because there's money in it. XM is a subscription service. There is advertising, yes. But the advertising/sales model of XM/Sirius is still evolving. And with Karmazin in one of the big chairs, you can bet there will be saleable commodities on both XM and Sirius. But, for now, again, the issue for the Cards is not reach. But subscription royalties. In other words, revenue. I listen to AMBCB for similar reasons as I listen to short wave, news and information. Short wave is a larger scope of world events. If I want music in the car its classical music on one of several public service stations or the one commercial station in LA, KMZT FM 105.1. Usually I hear on the national advertising that the show host has you enter their name on a web page or tell the phone operator their name when placing an order so you get a special discount or extra. That's part of the tracking strategy. And it's not just national. A lot of the stations here refer to webpages where a listener clicks on the 'radio' icon and enters the name of the host, as well. The list of stuff I hear advertised on AMBCB nationally is nearly endless as I listen to several syndicated talk show host programs. This is the majority of my AMBCB listening. The exception would be KNX, which is news/talk/weather most of the time. They have some local programming at times but I don't listen to it. So that me spending most of my AMBCB listening time to syndicated national talk/news/business information radio with a good percentage of commercials broadcast to the national audience and the rest local injected by the station to which I'm currently listening. Usually I can get a syndicated program on several stations and I pick the one that has the least annoying local commercials. Kind of a funny reason to determine which station I listen too. On KVTA there is local jewelry dealer and a BMW dealer whose commercials I just can't stand at all so I'll switch to another more distant station to hear the same program. Careful...now you're affecting MY revenue stream. :) WNYW was a cool station, back in its day. dxAce Michigan USA |
IBOC Article
dxAce wrote:
WNYW was a cool station, back in its day. VERY cool. dxAce Michigan USA |
IBOC Article
In article ,
D Peter Maus wrote: Telamon wrote: In article , D Peter Maus wrote: Telamon wrote: In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message odigy.co m. .. In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet one, I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios and his internet connection. As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to changes in radio, whether formatically or technically, and are very negative towards the way stations operate. I have disassociate myself form DX organisaions as they almost all seem to be out to change radio to the detriment of those of us who work in the field. Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage, is skywave night listening, the other poings are moot. Two things: 1. I question the wisdom of dismissing the hobby of dx'ing in this news group. Sounds to me like you are trolling for trouble. I sepcifically clarified that it was domestic (NRC and IRCA) MW DXers. For some reason, they have chosen to attack broadcasting as an industry and profession. Some even write letters to the FCC questioning the qualifications of licensees who are doing exactly what the FCC wants: improving local service. 2. Like I already posted there is plenty of regional and national commercials on radio so the long distance reception of stations does pay off. Now you can go ahead and ignore that to continue to support your wrongheaded assumptions. I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money off skywave, and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than 200 show up in ratings outside their own market area (MSA and embedded metros). My argument is as follows. First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of regional and national commercials on AMBCB. Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network programming. Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase so the advertising does its job either way. So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station? Actually, yes. There is no mechanism by which they can meaningfully track skywave impressions to a message. The numbers are so low as to be statistical zero. So, Arbitron diaries track locally relevant signals. Out of market signals are not even considered unless listening levels become statistically significant. And from my experience, when station manglement has made the trip to actually see the survey diaries personally, they disregarded out of market listening as 1) erroneous reporting, or 2) anomalous reception...either of which gets the out of market station report tossed. Response to adverisements happens on multiple levels. Your perception of response through sales is correct, but incomplete. Advertisers, and advertising agencies use complex, and sometimes medium/source specific, methods to track advertising. This may be as simple as: "Tell 'em Peter sent you".....to as complex as logged IP addresses connecting to referenced web pages, and tracking cookies. Encoded coupons with tracking data that's correlated to credit card data at POP. Or multiple toll free numbers...one used for each station on the buy. (I was even involved in a campaign where we had a separate toll free number for each daypart at each station...each number active in the local ADI. Out of market responses could not connect to the toll free numbers.) In all cases of my direct experience, less than 10 total out of market reception reports came in. All of them were disregarded as either anomalous and of no consequence, or erroneous and of no value. There have been isolated cases, however, of non local advertisers buying a station specifically for its reach. In the 60's a motorcycle shop in Tennessee bought WLS, ran only between sunset and sunrise, and did surprisingly well. This went on for years. In the 70's I remember buying tape decks and other components from Playback, in Chicago, in response to advertisements I heard on WLS. I was living in Iowa at the time. First comment, each transaction: "You're in Radio, aren't you?" Apparently, a lot of disc jockeys bought their stereo gear from Playback in response to the spots on WLS. Radio people do NOT get listening credit either in advertising tracking data, or Arbitron. I remember in high school...WLS overtook KXOK at night among highschoolers in North St Louis County. But advertising had little effect on that listener base. National advertising that generated sales did so locally. And it was assumed that KXOK, later KSLQ, and KSHE, running the same spots, were responsible. And we all at one time or another listened to Beaker street on KAAY. Though I don't recall any out of market advertising. KMOX, St Louis also ran spots for out of market advertisers, with similar success to WLS about this time. But, again these were unusual circumstances. And eventually, as skywave listening declined, the practice stopped. In each case, though, these were local advertisers making their own decisions. Today, no agency would make such a buy. Even though the commissions could be considerably higher on a highly rated major market station. Network programming...yes many stations carry it. But usually, a station can locally be found to carry the program of interest. And its advertising. In cases where a local affiliate can't be found, out of market listening is not a consideration. And again, there is no effective way of tracking it. Nor any compelling motivation to make the effort for a statistical zero. Not that it doesn't happen. But statistically, it's below the noise floor. So, there is no real motivation to consider the DX audience. Fringe, yes, or maybe. Skywave, no. Because there is no significance to the advertising effectiveness of skywave listening--there's no money in it. If there were a dollar to be made....believe me Radio would claw each other's eyes out to snap it up, and do whatever it takes to generate it. But until there is...there's no reason for Radio to give it a first thought, much less a second. Well, I guess I'm an odd duck when it comes to radio. I spend most of my time listening to the out of the market area. I live in Ventura but listen to stations up and down the coast because they carry programming I can't get locally. For example on a regular basis I listen to KFI, KNX and KABC in LA, KOGO in San Diego, KGO in San Francisco, KOH in Reno Nevada to name just a few. Locally I only listen to KVTA in Ventura for AMBCB. Interesting coincidence, that. I was the voice of KVTA for a number of years. There is a difference between fringe listening, and out of market DXing. Fringe listening happens around nearly all large markets. And where there is a substantial statistically significant signal, there is actually ratings data collected about the fringe audience. WLS used to show up when I was programming the station in Decatur. There were only 4 stations native to Decatur, after all. In fact, KSD, St Louis also showed up in the Decatur book from time to time. Interestingly KMOX did not, but WGN did also. WBBM has a large downstate following. And also shows up in the books occasionally. I worked at a couple of blowtorches down south before returning to Chicago. It was great experience. And we had coverage in 38 states. Ownership was very accessible, so there were some very protracted conversations about how we might turn that reach into something more than wasted electricity. The primary partner was a jock himself, who grew up listening to the stations while touring as a swing band musician, so he understood the concept of out of market listening, and long distance reach. But neither he, nor the sales staff, which actually sold baggies of tire air from Bob Will's station wagon could never find a way to tap the DX audience. No agency wanted to hear it. No local direct client understood the benefit. Truth is, the numbers said there wasn't any. Advertising buys aren't based on such data. The figures are particularly small. WGN, WLS, WBBM, when they did show up weren't even also rans compared to the native signals. So, again, if you responded to a spot on WBBM and made a purchase, it was assumed that WSOY was the carrier that made the impression. Consider the Shortwave audience. That's virtually entirely a DX audience, and numbers can be humongous. BBC was estimating 130 million cume in 1990. All expense. No return. And no way to contribute to operating costs with receiver licenses. DRM, and Worldspace, though can change THAT. Or consider the case of WNYW, Radio New York Worldwide. IIRC, that was Bonneville. A commercial shortwave station. A CBS affiliate and they ran a full boat of commercials. With an audience that spanned two hemispheres. A TREMENDOUS radio station that was as solid and entertaining to listen to as any ever on the dial. But there was no way to independently measure the audience. Radio sales at the time weren't nearly as scientific as the are today, so a buy that was accompanied by an uptick in local sales could be credited with the gain. Trouble is that national/international product marketing is the trickiest of businesses. Products are sold locally. Listening, especially to shortwave, is scattered over a wide area. Often with only a few listener impressions in hundreds of square miles. So, purchases in some regions may require quite the drive to find the product. With many practical limitations to making the trip. Coca-Cola isn't going to pay National network rates on a shortwave radio station for a spot that may produce a sale of one or two cases in South Fox Crotch, Rhodesia. Or East Weasel Penis Portugal. Getting the name out is one thing. And with WNYW's reach, getting the name out is certainly a cake walk. But marketing to actually spur sales would have to be done locally. Starting with making the product available, and known to the locals en masse. So, here you have a case of worldwide reach and tremendous audience potential, but absolutely no way to sell it. So it is with AMBCB DX. Huge reach, but no way to sell it. So they don't. Marketing is done locally. With regional or national support, but the buy is made with direct measurable impressions in mind. And on radio stations that have local reach in markets where the product is available. Even national buys are made only when the product is marketed nationally. No sense paying for reach where product can't be sold. So there are very few products that are actually advertised nationally. Many, many more are advertised regionally, and locally, with marketing presence built up locally. The wider area is only support for the local marketing effort. Because sales are local. If I do a spot for Toyota Trucks that runs throughout the Gulf States, the buy is specifically targeted in markets where there are active, and participating Toyota Truck dealers. And that's not every market in a region, surprisingly. And stations are not bought based on their skywave reach. They're bought based on the local ratings in their ADI. Because if an impression produces a sale, the truck is going to be bought locally. The buy may be regional, but the spots are still targeted for the benefit of local retailers. Local sales. A regional buy only exists to support the local marketing effort. So, because reach beyond the fringe has not been demostrated to be of saleable value, it's not considered a benefit to the advertiser. If it's not a benefit to the advertiser, it's of no value to the station and those listeners are orphaned. No one cares if they can hear the station or not. A whole block of St Louis Cardinals fans, those ex-pat St Louisans listening to KMOX's enormous signal for their Red Birds fix, have been literally cut off from the slip stream by the move of the Cards from KMOX to KTRS down the dial. KTRS has the second worst signal in the St Louis area, and the worst night signal since KWK's single site decades ago. That means thousands of listeners will no longer have the convenience of a strong signal carrying the game when they want their Cardinals fix. Both at great distances and right there in the St Louis area. The solution is to fill the coverage map with local FM's in and around St Louis and expand the Cardinals network throughout Missouri and Illinois, Arkansas and, I believe, Iowa. Most of them smaller signals, most FM. All local. And none of them permitting the reach from Phoenix to Puxutawney that would put Cardinals fans back within earshot of their team. Why did the Cards make this move? Because KTRS made them a significant offer in increased rights fees, and a 50% interest in the station. In other words, they abandoned the blowtorch signal for what they believed were better and more saleable options locally. Because the huge reach of KMOX was of no saleable value, it wasn't considered. (The wisdom of selling an inferiour signal against the hired assassins at KMOX is a discussion for another time.) While the Cardinals acknowledge that they have fans over the much wider area, the coverage is only useful if it's saleable. And advertising buys are local. Based on coverage, and audience in the ADI. DX is of no saleable interest. Cardinals fans orphaned by the deal have XM as an option. And the Cardinals have entered into an agreement with XM for their own outlet on the service. This in addition to MLB's contract with XM. Why? Because there's money in it. XM is a subscription service. There is advertising, yes. But the advertising/sales model of XM/Sirius is still evolving. And with Karmazin in one of the big chairs, you can bet there will be saleable commodities on both XM and Sirius. But, for now, again, the issue for the Cards is not reach. But subscription royalties. In other words, revenue. I listen to AMBCB for similar reasons as I listen to short wave, news and information. Short wave is a larger scope of world events. If I want music in the car its classical music on one of several public service stations or the one commercial station in LA, KMZT FM 105.1. Usually I hear on the national advertising that the show host has you enter their name on a web page or tell the phone operator their name when placing an order so you get a special discount or extra. That's part of the tracking strategy. And it's not just national. A lot of the stations here refer to webpages where a listener clicks on the 'radio' icon and enters the name of the host, as well. The list of stuff I hear advertised on AMBCB nationally is nearly endless as I listen to several syndicated talk show host programs. This is the majority of my AMBCB listening. The exception would be KNX, which is news/talk/weather most of the time. They have some local programming at times but I don't listen to it. So that me spending most of my AMBCB listening time to syndicated national talk/news/business information radio with a good percentage of commercials broadcast to the national audience and the rest local injected by the station to which I'm currently listening. Usually I can get a syndicated program on several stations and I pick the one that has the least annoying local commercials. Kind of a funny reason to determine which station I listen too. On KVTA there is local jewelry dealer and a BMW dealer whose commercials I just can't stand at all so I'll switch to another more distant station to hear the same program. Careful...now you're affecting MY revenue stream. :) Sorry about that but the banjo and Georges squeaky voice has got to go. The BMW dealer in Camarillo needs background music in the commercial that is not so annoying. I lived in this area since 1979 and I may have heard you on KVTA. However, the area stations have switched formats over time so I may not have listened to you if it was a music format but if you did news/talk format I may have listened to you. If you dont mind what was your on air name? By the way, Dave Ciniero of "Dave and Bob" died recently right after Bob retired so the morning show is all new people now. Thanks for taking the time to write these examples of revenue streams generated by local advertising. I understand that the local brick and mortar stores will only consider the local population coming to their store. I was thinking of a virtual market example making the point of sale a 1-800-number and credit card or on-line with a computer and the product would be shipped UPS / FedEx / US mail. If I understand your examples even in this virtual sales situation, the marketing is still only considered locally no different from a brick and mortar store. I hear advertising on WWCR that sells product this way though. But what I missed apparently is how the market is determined, which according to you is only the local population in the strong signal area combined with a market share number so the number of people listening to the commercial can be determined. I guess you cannot have the marketing department making a million long distance calls to figure out how many people are listening to a distant signal. I guess relying on the people buying the advertising on the station giving the station their sales figures would be out of the question and so AMBCB stations rely on an independent market share survey method. -- Telamon Ventura, California |
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Telamon wrote:
In article , D Peter Maus wrote: Telamon wrote: In article , D Peter Maus wrote: Telamon wrote: In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message odigy.co m. .. In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet one, I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios and his internet connection. As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to changes in radio, whether formatically or technically, and are very negative towards the way stations operate. I have disassociate myself form DX organisaions as they almost all seem to be out to change radio to the detriment of those of us who work in the field. Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage, is skywave night listening, the other poings are moot. Two things: 1. I question the wisdom of dismissing the hobby of dx'ing in this news group. Sounds to me like you are trolling for trouble. I sepcifically clarified that it was domestic (NRC and IRCA) MW DXers. For some reason, they have chosen to attack broadcasting as an industry and profession. Some even write letters to the FCC questioning the qualifications of licensees who are doing exactly what the FCC wants: improving local service. 2. Like I already posted there is plenty of regional and national commercials on radio so the long distance reception of stations does pay off. Now you can go ahead and ignore that to continue to support your wrongheaded assumptions. I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money off skywave, and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than 200 show up in ratings outside their own market area (MSA and embedded metros). My argument is as follows. First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of regional and national commercials on AMBCB. Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network programming. Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase so the advertising does its job either way. So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station? Actually, yes. There is no mechanism by which they can meaningfully track skywave impressions to a message. The numbers are so low as to be statistical zero. So, Arbitron diaries track locally relevant signals. Out of market signals are not even considered unless listening levels become statistically significant. And from my experience, when station manglement has made the trip to actually see the survey diaries personally, they disregarded out of market listening as 1) erroneous reporting, or 2) anomalous reception...either of which gets the out of market station report tossed. Response to adverisements happens on multiple levels. Your perception of response through sales is correct, but incomplete. Advertisers, and advertising agencies use complex, and sometimes medium/source specific, methods to track advertising. This may be as simple as: "Tell 'em Peter sent you".....to as complex as logged IP addresses connecting to referenced web pages, and tracking cookies. Encoded coupons with tracking data that's correlated to credit card data at POP. Or multiple toll free numbers...one used for each station on the buy. (I was even involved in a campaign where we had a separate toll free number for each daypart at each station...each number active in the local ADI. Out of market responses could not connect to the toll free numbers.) In all cases of my direct experience, less than 10 total out of market reception reports came in. All of them were disregarded as either anomalous and of no consequence, or erroneous and of no value. There have been isolated cases, however, of non local advertisers buying a station specifically for its reach. In the 60's a motorcycle shop in Tennessee bought WLS, ran only between sunset and sunrise, and did surprisingly well. This went on for years. In the 70's I remember buying tape decks and other components from Playback, in Chicago, in response to advertisements I heard on WLS. I was living in Iowa at the time. First comment, each transaction: "You're in Radio, aren't you?" Apparently, a lot of disc jockeys bought their stereo gear from Playback in response to the spots on WLS. Radio people do NOT get listening credit either in advertising tracking data, or Arbitron. I remember in high school...WLS overtook KXOK at night among highschoolers in North St Louis County. But advertising had little effect on that listener base. National advertising that generated sales did so locally. And it was assumed that KXOK, later KSLQ, and KSHE, running the same spots, were responsible. And we all at one time or another listened to Beaker street on KAAY. Though I don't recall any out of market advertising. KMOX, St Louis also ran spots for out of market advertisers, with similar success to WLS about this time. But, again these were unusual circumstances. And eventually, as skywave listening declined, the practice stopped. In each case, though, these were local advertisers making their own decisions. Today, no agency would make such a buy. Even though the commissions could be considerably higher on a highly rated major market station. Network programming...yes many stations carry it. But usually, a station can locally be found to carry the program of interest. And its advertising. In cases where a local affiliate can't be found, out of market listening is not a consideration. And again, there is no effective way of tracking it. Nor any compelling motivation to make the effort for a statistical zero. Not that it doesn't happen. But statistically, it's below the noise floor. So, there is no real motivation to consider the DX audience. Fringe, yes, or maybe. Skywave, no. Because there is no significance to the advertising effectiveness of skywave listening--there's no money in it. If there were a dollar to be made....believe me Radio would claw each other's eyes out to snap it up, and do whatever it takes to generate it. But until there is...there's no reason for Radio to give it a first thought, much less a second. Well, I guess I'm an odd duck when it comes to radio. I spend most of my time listening to the out of the market area. I live in Ventura but listen to stations up and down the coast because they carry programming I can't get locally. For example on a regular basis I listen to KFI, KNX and KABC in LA, KOGO in San Diego, KGO in San Francisco, KOH in Reno Nevada to name just a few. Locally I only listen to KVTA in Ventura for AMBCB. Interesting coincidence, that. I was the voice of KVTA for a number of years. There is a difference between fringe listening, and out of market DXing. Fringe listening happens around nearly all large markets. And where there is a substantial statistically significant signal, there is actually ratings data collected about the fringe audience. WLS used to show up when I was programming the station in Decatur. There were only 4 stations native to Decatur, after all. In fact, KSD, St Louis also showed up in the Decatur book from time to time. Interestingly KMOX did not, but WGN did also. WBBM has a large downstate following. And also shows up in the books occasionally. I worked at a couple of blowtorches down south before returning to Chicago. It was great experience. And we had coverage in 38 states. Ownership was very accessible, so there were some very protracted conversations about how we might turn that reach into something more than wasted electricity. The primary partner was a jock himself, who grew up listening to the stations while touring as a swing band musician, so he understood the concept of out of market listening, and long distance reach. But neither he, nor the sales staff, which actually sold baggies of tire air from Bob Will's station wagon could never find a way to tap the DX audience. No agency wanted to hear it. No local direct client understood the benefit. Truth is, the numbers said there wasn't any. Advertising buys aren't based on such data. The figures are particularly small. WGN, WLS, WBBM, when they did show up weren't even also rans compared to the native signals. So, again, if you responded to a spot on WBBM and made a purchase, it was assumed that WSOY was the carrier that made the impression. Consider the Shortwave audience. That's virtually entirely a DX audience, and numbers can be humongous. BBC was estimating 130 million cume in 1990. All expense. No return. And no way to contribute to operating costs with receiver licenses. DRM, and Worldspace, though can change THAT. Or consider the case of WNYW, Radio New York Worldwide. IIRC, that was Bonneville. A commercial shortwave station. A CBS affiliate and they ran a full boat of commercials. With an audience that spanned two hemispheres. A TREMENDOUS radio station that was as solid and entertaining to listen to as any ever on the dial. But there was no way to independently measure the audience. Radio sales at the time weren't nearly as scientific as the are today, so a buy that was accompanied by an uptick in local sales could be credited with the gain. Trouble is that national/international product marketing is the trickiest of businesses. Products are sold locally. Listening, especially to shortwave, is scattered over a wide area. Often with only a few listener impressions in hundreds of square miles. So, purchases in some regions may require quite the drive to find the product. With many practical limitations to making the trip. Coca-Cola isn't going to pay National network rates on a shortwave radio station for a spot that may produce a sale of one or two cases in South Fox Crotch, Rhodesia. Or East Weasel Penis Portugal. Getting the name out is one thing. And with WNYW's reach, getting the name out is certainly a cake walk. But marketing to actually spur sales would have to be done locally. Starting with making the product available, and known to the locals en masse. So, here you have a case of worldwide reach and tremendous audience potential, but absolutely no way to sell it. So it is with AMBCB DX. Huge reach, but no way to sell it. So they don't. Marketing is done locally. With regional or national support, but the buy is made with direct measurable impressions in mind. And on radio stations that have local reach in markets where the product is available. Even national buys are made only when the product is marketed nationally. No sense paying for reach where product can't be sold. So there are very few products that are actually advertised nationally. Many, many more are advertised regionally, and locally, with marketing presence built up locally. The wider area is only support for the local marketing effort. Because sales are local. If I do a spot for Toyota Trucks that runs throughout the Gulf States, the buy is specifically targeted in markets where there are active, and participating Toyota Truck dealers. And that's not every market in a region, surprisingly. And stations are not bought based on their skywave reach. They're bought based on the local ratings in their ADI. Because if an impression produces a sale, the truck is going to be bought locally. The buy may be regional, but the spots are still targeted for the benefit of local retailers. Local sales. A regional buy only exists to support the local marketing effort. So, because reach beyond the fringe has not been demostrated to be of saleable value, it's not considered a benefit to the advertiser. If it's not a benefit to the advertiser, it's of no value to the station and those listeners are orphaned. No one cares if they can hear the station or not. A whole block of St Louis Cardinals fans, those ex-pat St Louisans listening to KMOX's enormous signal for their Red Birds fix, have been literally cut off from the slip stream by the move of the Cards from KMOX to KTRS down the dial. KTRS has the second worst signal in the St Louis area, and the worst night signal since KWK's single site decades ago. That means thousands of listeners will no longer have the convenience of a strong signal carrying the game when they want their Cardinals fix. Both at great distances and right there in the St Louis area. The solution is to fill the coverage map with local FM's in and around St Louis and expand the Cardinals network throughout Missouri and Illinois, Arkansas and, I believe, Iowa. Most of them smaller signals, most FM. All local. And none of them permitting the reach from Phoenix to Puxutawney that would put Cardinals fans back within earshot of their team. Why did the Cards make this move? Because KTRS made them a significant offer in increased rights fees, and a 50% interest in the station. In other words, they abandoned the blowtorch signal for what they believed were better and more saleable options locally. Because the huge reach of KMOX was of no saleable value, it wasn't considered. (The wisdom of selling an inferiour signal against the hired assassins at KMOX is a discussion for another time.) While the Cardinals acknowledge that they have fans over the much wider area, the coverage is only useful if it's saleable. And advertising buys are local. Based on coverage, and audience in the ADI. DX is of no saleable interest. Cardinals fans orphaned by the deal have XM as an option. And the Cardinals have entered into an agreement with XM for their own outlet on the service. This in addition to MLB's contract with XM. Why? Because there's money in it. XM is a subscription service. There is advertising, yes. But the advertising/sales model of XM/Sirius is still evolving. And with Karmazin in one of the big chairs, you can bet there will be saleable commodities on both XM and Sirius. But, for now, again, the issue for the Cards is not reach. But subscription royalties. In other words, revenue. I listen to AMBCB for similar reasons as I listen to short wave, news and information. Short wave is a larger scope of world events. If I want music in the car its classical music on one of several public service stations or the one commercial station in LA, KMZT FM 105.1. Usually I hear on the national advertising that the show host has you enter their name on a web page or tell the phone operator their name when placing an order so you get a special discount or extra. That's part of the tracking strategy. And it's not just national. A lot of the stations here refer to webpages where a listener clicks on the 'radio' icon and enters the name of the host, as well. The list of stuff I hear advertised on AMBCB nationally is nearly endless as I listen to several syndicated talk show host programs. This is the majority of my AMBCB listening. The exception would be KNX, which is news/talk/weather most of the time. They have some local programming at times but I don't listen to it. So that me spending most of my AMBCB listening time to syndicated national talk/news/business information radio with a good percentage of commercials broadcast to the national audience and the rest local injected by the station to which I'm currently listening. Usually I can get a syndicated program on several stations and I pick the one that has the least annoying local commercials. Kind of a funny reason to determine which station I listen too. On KVTA there is local jewelry dealer and a BMW dealer whose commercials I just can't stand at all so I'll switch to another more distant station to hear the same program. Careful...now you're affecting MY revenue stream. :) Sorry about that but the banjo and Georges squeaky voice has got to go. The BMW dealer in Camarillo needs background music in the commercial that is not so annoying. I lived in this area since 1979 and I may have heard you on KVTA. However, the area stations have switched formats over time so I may not have listened to you if it was a music format but if you did news/talk format I may have listened to you. If you dont mind what was your on air name? I would have been the KVTA imaging voice, not a host. But when I was on the air, over the years, I was very cleverly known as David Peter Maus. By the way, Dave Ciniero of "Dave and Bob" died recently right after Bob retired so the morning show is all new people now. Thanks for taking the time to write these examples of revenue streams generated by local advertising. I understand that the local brick and mortar stores will only consider the local population coming to their store. I was thinking of a virtual market example making the point of sale a 1-800-number and credit card or on-line with a computer and the product would be shipped UPS / FedEx / US mail. If I understand your examples even in this virtual sales situation, the marketing is still only considered locally no different from a brick and mortar store. I hear advertising on WWCR that sells product this way though. PI's, or Per Inquiry spots, are sold and operated differently than traditional spot advertising, but even PI's are tracked with regional or local toll free numbers, logged IP's at websites and zipcodes on credit card numbers. Even if they ask you where you heard the spot, if the location data and your claim don't agree, often the data may be tossed out depending on who's actually handling the PI. And toll free numbers are usually set up so as to only receive calls from specified exchanges, or specified areas. Out of region calls do not connect. So, yeah, even then, credit is local. What happens on WWCR, the way advertising is sold , is different than the way advertising is sold on the broadcast bands. WWCR would be selling PI's and the station would receive a commission on every contact made to the advertiser's telephone number. Or the numbers in a spot buy would be estimated, like the early days of cable tv. There the sales were based on estimated households connected to cable that may be accessible to the program/channel/timeslot purchased. But actual viewership could be zero. WWCR would be selling the total population within their coverage area, and that figure broken down by demographics, or potential listenership figures estimated by what may actually be an arbitrary yardstick. Since no one knows how many are actually listening, such estimates are based on assumptions that have not been relevant for decades. It's not impossible for AMBCB to sell this way. But in today's over researched markets, no agency would make such a purchase. And no station would attempt to sell it, because no factual ratings information would be available. In that case, the only reasonable choice would be a PI. Many stations don't accept PI's anymore. Mostly because of the snake oil salesmen who sell them, and the fact that they tend to produce marginal results at best. Mostly, they're a waste of time. But what I missed apparently is how the market is determined, which according to you is only the local population in the strong signal area combined with a market share number so the number of people listening to the commercial can be determined. I guess you cannot have the marketing department making a million long distance calls to figure out how many people are listening to a distant signal. I guess relying on the people buying the advertising on the station giving the station their sales figures would be out of the question and so AMBCB stations rely on an independent market share survey method. Phone out research is a common practice. It's not cheap, but many stations do it. What they don't do is make long distance calls to do it. It's expensive, and the return is statistacally zero. Ratings companies like Arbitron and Nielsen measure listening habits by station, time of day, time spent listening, and break the numbers down by demographics, with hour by hour breakouts. If the sample is accurate, the numbers tell quite a story. And sales then sells advertising based on the rating, share, TSL, and what the market will bear. When Karmazin was at CBS, he wanted to see a conversion rate of 200%, that is, sales producing revenue share of twice ratings share. The station I was at, we often went higher than that. Agencies want to buy cost per point. A dollar figure for each share point in target. Where the diaries go is determined by zipcode, ethnic distribution, economic status, hat size and price of recycled lawn furniture within the Area of Dominant Influence. ADI is deterimined by geographic size of the potential market, population distribution, and signal strength of the station in question. Now there are multiple factors that are involved in each of these considerations...I'm only hitting highlights here. So advertising is targeted by desired demographic, within the Area of Dominant Influence and which stations deliver the desired bodies at the best cost. When advertising is sold like this, and bought on a cost per point basis, there is no value to the station or the advertiser to the DX signal. If it stops at the end of fringe coverage, they could care less. Which gets us back to the whole issue of this thread: IBOC and it's effect on what is left of the DXing hobby. No one cares. DXers are not statistically relevant to the business of broadcasting. They produce no revenue. They amount to no demographic group. They cannot be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed or numbered. They're like Dr Pepper drinkers...they defy marketing science. So that IBOC creates interference to DXing is of no consequence to anyone who has a financial interest in a broadcast station. And, like it or not....and make no mistake, I do NOT like it, and am NOT a fan of IBOC or where Broadcasting as an industry has gone in the last 15 years, but it is what it is.....Radio in the United States is always, and has always been, about money. Even NPR and CPB. It's always about the money. So, to get back to my original point...if you're going to fight IBOC, it must be done on the grounds of LOCAL interference. Because LOCAL interference affects LOCAL revenue. And it's always about the money. Always. p |
IBOC Article
In article
, D Peter Maus wrote: Telamon wrote: In article , D Peter Maus wrote: Telamon wrote: In article , D Peter Maus wrote: Telamon wrote: In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: "Telamon" wrote in message odigy.co m. .. In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet one, I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios and his internet connection. As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to changes in radio, whether formatically or technically, and are very negative towards the way stations operate. I have disassociate myself form DX organisaions as they almost all seem to be out to change radio to the detriment of those of us who work in the field. Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage, is skywave night listening, the other poings are moot. Two things: 1. I question the wisdom of dismissing the hobby of dx'ing in this news group. Sounds to me like you are trolling for trouble. I sepcifically clarified that it was domestic (NRC and IRCA) MW DXers. For some reason, they have chosen to attack broadcasting as an industry and profession. Some even write letters to the FCC questioning the qualifications of licensees who are doing exactly what the FCC wants: improving local service. 2. Like I already posted there is plenty of regional and national commercials on radio so the long distance reception of stations does pay off. Now you can go ahead and ignore that to continue to support your wrongheaded assumptions. I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money off skywave, and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than 200 show up in ratings outside their own market area (MSA and embedded metros). My argument is as follows. First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of regional and national commercials on AMBCB. Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network programming. Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase so the advertising does its job either way. So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station? Actually, yes. There is no mechanism by which they can meaningfully track skywave impressions to a message. The numbers are so low as to be statistical zero. So, Arbitron diaries track locally relevant signals. Out of market signals are not even considered unless listening levels become statistically significant. And from my experience, when station manglement has made the trip to actually see the survey diaries personally, they disregarded out of market listening as 1) erroneous reporting, or 2) anomalous reception...either of which gets the out of market station report tossed. Response to adverisements happens on multiple levels. Your perception of response through sales is correct, but incomplete. Advertisers, and advertising agencies use complex, and sometimes medium/source specific, methods to track advertising. This may be as simple as: "Tell 'em Peter sent you".....to as complex as logged IP addresses connecting to referenced web pages, and tracking cookies. Encoded coupons with tracking data that's correlated to credit card data at POP. Or multiple toll free numbers...one used for each station on the buy. (I was even involved in a campaign where we had a separate toll free number for each daypart at each station...each number active in the local ADI. Out of market responses could not connect to the toll free numbers.) In all cases of my direct experience, less than 10 total out of market reception reports came in. All of them were disregarded as either anomalous and of no consequence, or erroneous and of no value. There have been isolated cases, however, of non local advertisers buying a station specifically for its reach. In the 60's a motorcycle shop in Tennessee bought WLS, ran only between sunset and sunrise, and did surprisingly well. This went on for years. In the 70's I remember buying tape decks and other components from Playback, in Chicago, in response to advertisements I heard on WLS. I was living in Iowa at the time. First comment, each transaction: "You're in Radio, aren't you?" Apparently, a lot of disc jockeys bought their stereo gear from Playback in response to the spots on WLS. Radio people do NOT get listening credit either in advertising tracking data, or Arbitron. I remember in high school...WLS overtook KXOK at night among highschoolers in North St Louis County. But advertising had little effect on that listener base. National advertising that generated sales did so locally. And it was assumed that KXOK, later KSLQ, and KSHE, running the same spots, were responsible. And we all at one time or another listened to Beaker street on KAAY. Though I don't recall any out of market advertising. KMOX, St Louis also ran spots for out of market advertisers, with similar success to WLS about this time. But, again these were unusual circumstances. And eventually, as skywave listening declined, the practice stopped. In each case, though, these were local advertisers making their own decisions. Today, no agency would make such a buy. Even though the commissions could be considerably higher on a highly rated major market station. Network programming...yes many stations carry it. But usually, a station can locally be found to carry the program of interest. And its advertising. In cases where a local affiliate can't be found, out of market listening is not a consideration. And again, there is no effective way of tracking it. Nor any compelling motivation to make the effort for a statistical zero. Not that it doesn't happen. But statistically, it's below the noise floor. So, there is no real motivation to consider the DX audience. Fringe, yes, or maybe. Skywave, no. Because there is no significance to the advertising effectiveness of skywave listening--there's no money in it. If there were a dollar to be made....believe me Radio would claw each other's eyes out to snap it up, and do whatever it takes to generate it. But until there is...there's no reason for Radio to give it a first thought, much less a second. Well, I guess I'm an odd duck when it comes to radio. I spend most of my time listening to the out of the market area. I live in Ventura but listen to stations up and down the coast because they carry programming I can't get locally. For example on a regular basis I listen to KFI, KNX and KABC in LA, KOGO in San Diego, KGO in San Francisco, KOH in Reno Nevada to name just a few. Locally I only listen to KVTA in Ventura for AMBCB. Interesting coincidence, that. I was the voice of KVTA for a number of years. There is a difference between fringe listening, and out of market DXing. Fringe listening happens around nearly all large markets. And where there is a substantial statistically significant signal, there is actually ratings data collected about the fringe audience. WLS used to show up when I was programming the station in Decatur. There were only 4 stations native to Decatur, after all. In fact, KSD, St Louis also showed up in the Decatur book from time to time. Interestingly KMOX did not, but WGN did also. WBBM has a large downstate following. And also shows up in the books occasionally. I worked at a couple of blowtorches down south before returning to Chicago. It was great experience. And we had coverage in 38 states. Ownership was very accessible, so there were some very protracted conversations about how we might turn that reach into something more than wasted electricity. The primary partner was a jock himself, who grew up listening to the stations while touring as a swing band musician, so he understood the concept of out of market listening, and long distance reach. But neither he, nor the sales staff, which actually sold baggies of tire air from Bob Will's station wagon could never find a way to tap the DX audience. No agency wanted to hear it. No local direct client understood the benefit. Truth is, the numbers said there wasn't any. Advertising buys aren't based on such data. The figures are particularly small. WGN, WLS, WBBM, when they did show up weren't even also rans compared to the native signals. So, again, if you responded to a spot on WBBM and made a purchase, it was assumed that WSOY was the carrier that made the impression. Consider the Shortwave audience. That's virtually entirely a DX audience, and numbers can be humongous. BBC was estimating 130 million cume in 1990. All expense. No return. And no way to contribute to operating costs with receiver licenses. DRM, and Worldspace, though can change THAT. Or consider the case of WNYW, Radio New York Worldwide. IIRC, that was Bonneville. A commercial shortwave station. A CBS affiliate and they ran a full boat of commercials. With an audience that spanned two hemispheres. A TREMENDOUS radio station that was as solid and entertaining to listen to as any ever on the dial. But there was no way to independently measure the audience. Radio sales at the time weren't nearly as scientific as the are today, so a buy that was accompanied by an uptick in local sales could be credited with the gain. Trouble is that national/international product marketing is the trickiest of businesses. Products are sold locally. Listening, especially to shortwave, is scattered over a wide area. Often with only a few listener impressions in hundreds of square miles. So, purchases in some regions may require quite the drive to find the product. With many practical limitations to making the trip. Coca-Cola isn't going to pay National network rates on a shortwave radio station for a spot that may produce a sale of one or two cases in South Fox Crotch, Rhodesia. Or East Weasel Penis Portugal. Getting the name out is one thing. And with WNYW's reach, getting the name out is certainly a cake walk. But marketing to actually spur sales would have to be done locally. Starting with making the product available, and known to the locals en masse. So, here you have a case of worldwide reach and tremendous audience potential, but absolutely no way to sell it. So it is with AMBCB DX. Huge reach, but no way to sell it. So they don't. Marketing is done locally. With regional or national support, but the buy is made with direct measurable impressions in mind. And on radio stations that have local reach in markets where the product is available. Even national buys are made only when the product is marketed nationally. No sense paying for reach where product can't be sold. So there are very few products that are actually advertised nationally. Many, many more are advertised regionally, and locally, with marketing presence built up locally. The wider area is only support for the local marketing effort. Because sales are local. If I do a spot for Toyota Trucks that runs throughout the Gulf States, the buy is specifically targeted in markets where there are active, and participating Toyota Truck dealers. And that's not every market in a region, surprisingly. And stations are not bought based on their skywave reach. They're bought based on the local ratings in their ADI. Because if an impression produces a sale, the truck is going to be bought locally. The buy may be regional, but the spots are still targeted for the benefit of local retailers. Local sales. A regional buy only exists to support the local marketing effort. So, because reach beyond the fringe has not been demostrated to be of saleable value, it's not considered a benefit to the advertiser. If it's not a benefit to the advertiser, it's of no value to the station and those listeners are orphaned. No one cares if they can hear the station or not. A whole block of St Louis Cardinals fans, those ex-pat St Louisans listening to KMOX's enormous signal for their Red Birds fix, have been literally cut off from the slip stream by the move of the Cards from KMOX to KTRS down the dial. KTRS has the second worst signal in the St Louis area, and the worst night signal since KWK's single site decades ago. That means thousands of listeners will no longer have the convenience of a strong signal carrying the game when they want their Cardinals fix. Both at great distances and right there in the St Louis area. The solution is to fill the coverage map with local FM's in and around St Louis and expand the Cardinals network throughout Missouri and Illinois, Arkansas and, I believe, Iowa. Most of them smaller signals, most FM. All local. And none of them permitting the reach from Phoenix to Puxutawney that would put Cardinals fans back within earshot of their team. Why did the Cards make this move? Because KTRS made them a significant offer in increased rights fees, and a 50% interest in the station. In other words, they abandoned the blowtorch signal for what they believed were better and more saleable options locally. Because the huge reach of KMOX was of no saleable value, it wasn't considered. (The wisdom of selling an inferiour signal against the hired assassins at KMOX is a discussion for another time.) While the Cardinals acknowledge that they have fans over the much wider area, the coverage is only useful if it's saleable. And advertising buys are local. Based on coverage, and audience in the ADI. DX is of no saleable interest. Cardinals fans orphaned by the deal have XM as an option. And the Cardinals have entered into an agreement with XM for their own outlet on the service. This in addition to MLB's contract with XM. Why? Because there's money in it. XM is a subscription service. There is advertising, yes. But the advertising/sales model of XM/Sirius is still evolving. And with Karmazin in one of the big chairs, you can bet there will be saleable commodities on both XM and Sirius. But, for now, again, the issue for the Cards is not reach. But subscription royalties. In other words, revenue. I listen to AMBCB for similar reasons as I listen to short wave, news and information. Short wave is a larger scope of world events. If I want music in the car its classical music on one of several public service stations or the one commercial station in LA, KMZT FM 105.1. Usually I hear on the national advertising that the show host has you enter their name on a web page or tell the phone operator their name when placing an order so you get a special discount or extra. That's part of the tracking strategy. And it's not just national. A lot of the stations here refer to webpages where a listener clicks on the 'radio' icon and enters the name of the host, as well. The list of stuff I hear advertised on AMBCB nationally is nearly endless as I listen to several syndicated talk show host programs. This is the majority of my AMBCB listening. The exception would be KNX, which is news/talk/weather most of the time. They have some local programming at times but I don't listen to it. So that me spending most of my AMBCB listening time to syndicated national talk/news/business information radio with a good percentage of commercials broadcast to the national audience and the rest local injected by the station to which I'm currently listening. Usually I can get a syndicated program on several stations and I pick the one that has the least annoying local commercials. Kind of a funny reason to determine which station I listen too. On KVTA there is local jewelry dealer and a BMW dealer whose commercials I just can't stand at all so I'll switch to another more distant station to hear the same program. Careful...now you're affecting MY revenue stream. :) Sorry about that but the banjo and Georges squeaky voice has got to go. The BMW dealer in Camarillo needs background music in the commercial that is not so annoying. I lived in this area since 1979 and I may have heard you on KVTA. However, the area stations have switched formats over time so I may not have listened to you if it was a music format but if you did news/talk format I may have listened to you. If you dont mind what was your on air name? I would have been the KVTA imaging voice, not a host. But when I was on the air, over the years, I was very cleverly known as David Peter Maus. By the way, Dave Ciniero of "Dave and Bob" died recently right after Bob retired so the morning show is all new people now. Thanks for taking the time to write these examples of revenue streams generated by local advertising. I understand that the local brick and mortar stores will only consider the local population coming to their store. I was thinking of a virtual market example making the point of sale a 1-800-number and credit card or on-line with a computer and the product would be shipped UPS / FedEx / US mail. If I understand your examples even in this virtual sales situation, the marketing is still only considered locally no different from a brick and mortar store. I hear advertising on WWCR that sells product this way though. PI's, or Per Inquiry spots, are sold and operated differently than traditional spot advertising, but even PI's are tracked with regional or local toll free numbers, logged IP's at websites and zipcodes on credit card numbers. Even if they ask you where you heard the spot, if the location data and your claim don't agree, often the data may be tossed out depending on who's actually handling the PI. And toll free numbers are usually set up so as to only receive calls from specified exchanges, or specified areas. Out of region calls do not connect. So, yeah, even then, credit is local. What happens on WWCR, the way advertising is sold , is different than the way advertising is sold on the broadcast bands. WWCR would be selling PI's and the station would receive a commission on every contact made to the advertiser's telephone number. Or the numbers in a spot buy would be estimated, like the early days of cable tv. There the sales were based on estimated households connected to cable that may be accessible to the program/channel/timeslot purchased. But actual viewership could be zero. WWCR would be selling the total population within their coverage area, and that figure broken down by demographics, or potential listenership figures estimated by what may actually be an arbitrary yardstick. Since no one knows how many are actually listening, such estimates are based on assumptions that have not been relevant for decades. It's not impossible for AMBCB to sell this way. But in today's over researched markets, no agency would make such a purchase. And no station would attempt to sell it, because no factual ratings information would be available. In that case, the only reasonable choice would be a PI. Many stations don't accept PI's anymore. Mostly because of the snake oil salesmen who sell them, and the fact that they tend to produce marginal results at best. Mostly, they're a waste of time. But what I missed apparently is how the market is determined, which according to you is only the local population in the strong signal area combined with a market share number so the number of people listening to the commercial can be determined. I guess you cannot have the marketing department making a million long distance calls to figure out how many people are listening to a distant signal. I guess relying on the people buying the advertising on the station giving the station their sales figures would be out of the question and so AMBCB stations rely on an independent market share survey method. Phone out research is a common practice. It's not cheap, but many stations do it. What they don't do is make long distance calls to do it. It's expensive, and the return is statistacally zero. Ratings companies like Arbitron and Nielsen measure listening habits by station, time of day, time spent listening, and break the numbers down by demographics, with hour by hour breakouts. If the sample is accurate, the numbers tell quite a story. And sales then sells advertising based on the rating, share, TSL, and what the market will bear. When Karmazin was at CBS, he wanted to see a conversion rate of 200%, that is, sales producing revenue share of twice ratings share. The station I was at, we often went higher than that. Agencies want to buy cost per point. A dollar figure for each share point in target. Where the diaries go is determined by zipcode, ethnic distribution, economic status, hat size and price of recycled lawn furniture within the Area of Dominant Influence. ADI is deterimined by geographic size of the potential market, population distribution, and signal strength of the station in question. Now there are multiple factors that are involved in each of these considerations...I'm only hitting highlights here. So advertising is targeted by desired demographic, within the Area of Dominant Influence and which stations deliver the desired bodies at the best cost. When advertising is sold like this, and bought on a cost per point basis, there is no value to the station or the advertiser to the DX signal. If it stops at the end of fringe coverage, they could care less. Which gets us back to the whole issue of this thread: IBOC and it's effect on what is left of the DXing hobby. No one cares. DXers are not statistically relevant to the business of broadcasting. They produce no revenue. They amount to no demographic group. They cannot be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed or numbered. They're like Dr Pepper drinkers...they defy marketing science. So that IBOC creates interference to DXing is of no consequence to anyone who has a financial interest in a broadcast station. And, like it or not....and make no mistake, I do NOT like it, and am NOT a fan of IBOC or where Broadcasting as an industry has gone in the last 15 years, but it is what it is.....Radio in the United States is always, and has always been, about money. Even NPR and CPB. It's always about the money. So, to get back to my original point...if you're going to fight IBOC, it must be done on the grounds of LOCAL interference. Because LOCAL interference affects LOCAL revenue. And it's always about the money. Always. What is an imaging voice? Would you be the guy saying "this is KVTA 1520, its 12 o'clock" on the hour? Maybe reading some of the commercials? Radio station self promotion ads? Thanks again for explaining the marketing situation for AMBCB. Very instructive. So if anyone wants to complain about IBOC it has to be one local station interfering with another local station. If you will indulge me I have another question about the definition of local. Lets take an example from this web site if you have no objections to it as an example. Here is a coverage map for KFI 640 AM. You will note it has three contours local, distant and fringe. http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat...tatus=L&hours= U For the purposes of marketing which one applies local, distant or fringe? If someone wanted to complain about IBOC interference which contour would the two stations have to be within for the complaint to be considered a valid complaint? Or maybe this contour map is not appropriate for either question? -- Telamon Ventura, California |
IBOC Article
"Telamon" wrote in message ... [snip] I was thinking of a virtual market example making the point of sale a 1-800-number and credit card or on-line with a computer and the product would be shipped UPS / FedEx / US mail. If I understand your examples even in this virtual sales situation, the marketing is still only considered locally no different from a brick and mortar store. I hear advertising on WWCR that sells product this way though. [snip] As far as I know, the advertising heard on WWCR is bought by the people who buy airtime from WWCR. I do know WWCR actively solicits programming but I've never heard WWCR solicit advertising as I've heard on a few local stations. http://www.wwcr.com/wwcr_sales_information.html Alex Jones has said the money he gets from Berkey is what he uses to stay on shortwave. Frank Dresser |
IBOC Article
"Frank Dresser" wrote in message ... As far as I know, the advertising heard on WWCR is bought by the people who buy airtime from WWCR. Well, I what I meant was: As far as I know, the advertising heard on WWCR is SOLD by the people who buy airtime from WWCR. |
IBOC Article
D Peter Maus wrote:
[...] So, yeah, even then, credit is local. What happens on WWCR, the way advertising is sold , is different than the way advertising is sold on the broadcast bands. WWCR would be selling PI's and the station would receive a commission on every contact made to the advertiser's telephone number. Or the numbers in a spot buy would be estimated, like the early days of cable tv. There the sales were based on estimated households connected to cable that may be accessible to the program/channel/timeslot purchased. But actual viewership could be zero. WWCR would be selling the total population within their coverage area, and that figure broken down by demographics, or potential listenership figures estimated by what may actually be an arbitrary yardstick. Since no one knows how many are actually listening, such estimates are based on assumptions that have not been relevant for decades. It's not impossible for AMBCB to sell this way. But in today's over researched markets, no agency would make such a purchase. And no station would attempt to sell it, because no factual ratings information would be available. In that case, the only reasonable choice would be a PI. Many stations don't accept PI's anymore. Mostly because of the snake oil salesmen who sell them, and the fact that they tend to produce marginal results at best. Mostly, they're a waste of time. But what I missed apparently is how the market is determined, which according to you is only the local population in the strong signal area combined with a market share number so the number of people listening to the commercial can be determined. I guess you cannot have the marketing department making a million long distance calls to figure out how many people are listening to a distant signal. I guess relying on the people buying the advertising on the station giving the station their sales figures would be out of the question and so AMBCB stations rely on an independent market share survey method. Phone out research is a common practice. It's not cheap, but many stations do it. What they don't do is make long distance calls to do it. It's expensive, and the return is statistacally zero. Ratings companies like Arbitron and Nielsen measure listening habits by station, time of day, time spent listening, and break the numbers down by demographics, with hour by hour breakouts. If the sample is accurate, the numbers tell quite a story. And sales then sells advertising based on the rating, share, TSL, and what the market will bear. When Karmazin was at CBS, he wanted to see a conversion rate of 200%, that is, sales producing revenue share of twice ratings share. The station I was at, we often went higher than that. Agencies want to buy cost per point. A dollar figure for each share point in target. Where the diaries go is determined by zipcode, ethnic distribution, economic status, hat size and price of recycled lawn furniture within the Area of Dominant Influence. ADI is deterimined by geographic size of the potential market, population distribution, and signal strength of the station in question. Now there are multiple factors that are involved in each of these considerations...I'm only hitting highlights here. So advertising is targeted by desired demographic, within the Area of Dominant Influence and which stations deliver the desired bodies at the best cost. When advertising is sold like this, and bought on a cost per point basis, there is no value to the station or the advertiser to the DX signal. If it stops at the end of fringe coverage, they could care less. Which gets us back to the whole issue of this thread: IBOC and it's effect on what is left of the DXing hobby. No one cares. DXers are not statistically relevant to the business of broadcasting. They produce no revenue. They amount to no demographic group. They cannot be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed or numbered. They're like Dr Pepper drinkers...they defy marketing science. So that IBOC creates interference to DXing is of no consequence to anyone who has a financial interest in a broadcast station. And, like it or not....and make no mistake, I do NOT like it, and am NOT a fan of IBOC or where Broadcasting as an industry has gone in the last 15 years, but it is what it is.....Radio in the United States is always, and has always been, about money. Even NPR and CPB. It's always about the money. So, to get back to my original point...if you're going to fight IBOC, it must be done on the grounds of LOCAL interference. Because LOCAL interference affects LOCAL revenue. And it's always about the money. Always. p I wonder how this fits with the business models of the old REGIONAL powerhouses of the 70s such as CKLW and WABC. WABC always acknowledged their long distance listeners who called in, and CKLW certainly was NOT targeting only Windsor, ON. -- Eric F. Richards "Nature abhors a vacuum tube." -- Myron Glass, often attributed to J. R. Pierce, Bell Labs, c. 1940 |
IBOC Article
Eric F. Richards wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote: [...] So, yeah, even then, credit is local. What happens on WWCR, the way advertising is sold , is different than the way advertising is sold on the broadcast bands. WWCR would be selling PI's and the station would receive a commission on every contact made to the advertiser's telephone number. Or the numbers in a spot buy would be estimated, like the early days of cable tv. There the sales were based on estimated households connected to cable that may be accessible to the program/channel/timeslot purchased. But actual viewership could be zero. WWCR would be selling the total population within their coverage area, and that figure broken down by demographics, or potential listenership figures estimated by what may actually be an arbitrary yardstick. Since no one knows how many are actually listening, such estimates are based on assumptions that have not been relevant for decades. It's not impossible for AMBCB to sell this way. But in today's over researched markets, no agency would make such a purchase. And no station would attempt to sell it, because no factual ratings information would be available. In that case, the only reasonable choice would be a PI. Many stations don't accept PI's anymore. Mostly because of the snake oil salesmen who sell them, and the fact that they tend to produce marginal results at best. Mostly, they're a waste of time. But what I missed apparently is how the market is determined, which according to you is only the local population in the strong signal area combined with a market share number so the number of people listening to the commercial can be determined. I guess you cannot have the marketing department making a million long distance calls to figure out how many people are listening to a distant signal. I guess relying on the people buying the advertising on the station giving the station their sales figures would be out of the question and so AMBCB stations rely on an independent market share survey method. Phone out research is a common practice. It's not cheap, but many stations do it. What they don't do is make long distance calls to do it. It's expensive, and the return is statistacally zero. Ratings companies like Arbitron and Nielsen measure listening habits by station, time of day, time spent listening, and break the numbers down by demographics, with hour by hour breakouts. If the sample is accurate, the numbers tell quite a story. And sales then sells advertising based on the rating, share, TSL, and what the market will bear. When Karmazin was at CBS, he wanted to see a conversion rate of 200%, that is, sales producing revenue share of twice ratings share. The station I was at, we often went higher than that. Agencies want to buy cost per point. A dollar figure for each share point in target. Where the diaries go is determined by zipcode, ethnic distribution, economic status, hat size and price of recycled lawn furniture within the Area of Dominant Influence. ADI is deterimined by geographic size of the potential market, population distribution, and signal strength of the station in question. Now there are multiple factors that are involved in each of these considerations...I'm only hitting highlights here. So advertising is targeted by desired demographic, within the Area of Dominant Influence and which stations deliver the desired bodies at the best cost. When advertising is sold like this, and bought on a cost per point basis, there is no value to the station or the advertiser to the DX signal. If it stops at the end of fringe coverage, they could care less. Which gets us back to the whole issue of this thread: IBOC and it's effect on what is left of the DXing hobby. No one cares. DXers are not statistically relevant to the business of broadcasting. They produce no revenue. They amount to no demographic group. They cannot be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed or numbered. They're like Dr Pepper drinkers...they defy marketing science. So that IBOC creates interference to DXing is of no consequence to anyone who has a financial interest in a broadcast station. And, like it or not....and make no mistake, I do NOT like it, and am NOT a fan of IBOC or where Broadcasting as an industry has gone in the last 15 years, but it is what it is.....Radio in the United States is always, and has always been, about money. Even NPR and CPB. It's always about the money. So, to get back to my original point...if you're going to fight IBOC, it must be done on the grounds of LOCAL interference. Because LOCAL interference affects LOCAL revenue. And it's always about the money. Always. p I wonder how this fits with the business models of the old REGIONAL powerhouses of the 70s such as CKLW and WABC. WABC always acknowledged their long distance listeners who called in, and CKLW certainly was NOT targeting only Windsor, ON. Those days are long gone. But remember, a jock acknowledging a long distance listener on the air, is and was even then, largely a novelty. It doesn't reflect what's happening in the PD's office with the Arbitron book, or how they compute rates for the Sales department. Working in Chicago, having listeners in South Fox Crotch, Tennesee is good for the ego. Hell, I sat in for the night jock one evening at KWKH and took a request from Crayford, south of London. A great stroke. But hardly saleable. And in the US, Radio is always about the money. Now, CKLW is not representative of what happens in radio in the US. At time to which you refer, radio stations in Canada were licenses to print money. There were more radio stations in Illinois than the whole of Canada, and the Canadian model for broadcast is vastly different than it is in the US, specifically because of the large unserved areas between radio stations. Not so much anymore, especially with all the AM's going away, migrating to FM or going dark. That kind of seals the deal on local vs. DX listener bases. But even in the 70's the Canadian model was not the same as in the US. |
IBOC Article
D Peter Maus wrote:
Those days are long gone. But remember, a jock acknowledging a long distance listener on the air, is and was even then, largely a novelty. It doesn't reflect what's happening in the PD's office with the Arbitron book, or how they compute rates for the Sales department. Working in Chicago, having listeners in South Fox Crotch, Tennesee is good for the ego. Hell, I sat in for the night jock one evening at KWKH and took a request from Crayford, south of London. A great stroke. But hardly saleable. And in the US, Radio is always about the money. Actually, my favorite acknowledgement was from a college party in Miami. I personally listened because I was a geek and thought it was cool, and it became VERY interesting listening during the blackout of 77. Now, CKLW is not representative of what happens in radio in the US. At time to which you refer, radio stations in Canada were licenses to print money. There were more radio stations in Illinois than the whole of Canada, and the Canadian model for broadcast is vastly different than it is in the US, specifically because of the large unserved areas between radio stations. But CKLW's target was the US, not Canada at all, and they made no bones about it. I'm sure they were in Windsor rather than Detroit because of costs, but their target audience was south of the border. For that matter, last time I was in San Diego (quite some time ago, actually), the dial was packed with stations in Mexico targeting SD. -- Eric F. Richards "Nature abhors a vacuum tube." -- Myron Glass, often attributed to J. R. Pierce, Bell Labs, c. 1940 |
IBOC Article
Eric F. Richards wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote: Those days are long gone. But remember, a jock acknowledging a long distance listener on the air, is and was even then, largely a novelty. It doesn't reflect what's happening in the PD's office with the Arbitron book, or how they compute rates for the Sales department. Working in Chicago, having listeners in South Fox Crotch, Tennesee is good for the ego. Hell, I sat in for the night jock one evening at KWKH and took a request from Crayford, south of London. A great stroke. But hardly saleable. And in the US, Radio is always about the money. Actually, my favorite acknowledgement was from a college party in Miami. I personally listened because I was a geek and thought it was cool, and it became VERY interesting listening during the blackout of 77. Now, CKLW is not representative of what happens in radio in the US. At time to which you refer, radio stations in Canada were licenses to print money. There were more radio stations in Illinois than the whole of Canada, and the Canadian model for broadcast is vastly different than it is in the US, specifically because of the large unserved areas between radio stations. But CKLW's target was the US, not Canada at all, and they made no bones about it. I'm sure they were in Windsor rather than Detroit because of costs, but their target audience was south of the border. For that matter, last time I was in San Diego (quite some time ago, actually), the dial was packed with stations in Mexico targeting SD. You make my point for me. Again, the target audience is of limited size. Because there's no practical sales value beyond a certain point. Audience for CKLW is for practical purposes outside of the ADI, unmeasurable. Where there is a measured audience, it's small compared to the locals, and not saleable. But even if it were comparatively large, and I've worked in markets downstate where WLS and WGN were rated and contenders against the locals, there still wasn't a practical sales value. So, for all intents that matter, that audience isn't a consideration. Hence IBOC interference issues outside of the ADI are not a consideration. If you're going to argue objectionable interference, it has to be within the ADI. As for the CKLW target. Practically speaking, the were a Detroit station. And they sold the Detroit market. Nonetheless, they were a Canadian station, and different rules, different business models apply than those for US stations. Targets are one thing. Rules are another. And location determines the rules. Not targets. One of the things that's easily forgotten, is that Radio is an entertainment business. (loose definitions apply.) What you hear is often not really what it seems. There's a lot behind the curtain that is intentionally not on display before the listening audience. Meaning that what you hear is often not what you get. A long distance dedication is a great ego boost to the jocks at the station and the PD running the show. It's great to have your name smeared across multiple states. But as a practical business tool, it's only an imaginary benefit. The business model is something quite different. And practical realities far more limited than what's implied to those on your side of the grille cloth. |
IBOC Article
"Eric F. Richards" wrote in message ... But CKLW's target was the US, not Canada at all, and they made no bones about it. I'm sure they were in Windsor rather than Detroit because of costs, but their target audience was south of the border. They were in Windsor because they are a Canadian station, not a US one. And the costs of operating from Canada were supposedly higher, due to the taxes, goverment regulations and such in Canada. For that matter, last time I was in San Diego (quite some time ago, actually), the dial was packed with stations in Mexico targeting SD. There are only a handful of stations in Tijuana targeting SD in English, and one or two more in Spanish. Most are content to serve one of Mexico's ten largest cities. |
IBOC Article
"Eric F. Richards" wrote in message ... IMHO, the IBOC debacle will be as harmful to AM radio as the elimination of clear channel designations. The clear channels continue to exist. The Roman numerals used to designate them changed to letters, but other than that WABC and WGN and KFI et. al. are still 50 kw non directional clears. The change is that few listen to the clears outside the local groundwave coverage area any more. There are FM signals in all but the most barren parts of the US, and there is little listening to AM at night anyway. Some bureaucrat with the heart of a calculator is going to wonder why ad revenue is dropping, all the while looking at unchanging numbers massaged to fit his faulty model his coverage area. Radio revenue is increasing faster than inflation. The former I-A and big 1-B clears without exception are billing leaders in their markets and are increasing in revenue because their local signals are strong, not much affected by interference and they have good talk based programming. WBZ, WTIC, WGY, WHAM, WSB, WBT, WSM, WGN, WBBM, WSCR, WHAM, WLW, KDKA, KYW, WABC, WFAN, WCBS, KMOX, WWL, WOAI, WBAP, KRLD, KOA, KSL, KOB, WFAB, KFI, KNBR, KGO, KNX, KIRO, WHO, WCCO, etc. are all among the nation's highest billers. |
IBOC Article
Eric F. Richards wrote:
D Peter Maus wrote: You make my point for me. What, with my mention of the mexican stations targeting SD? That was just an aside on cross-border stations. IIRC, CKLW and WABC were well aware of their wide coverage area. Again, the target audience is of limited size. Because there's no practical sales value beyond a certain point. Audience for CKLW is for practical purposes outside of the ADI, unmeasurable. Where there is a measured audience, it's small compared to the locals, and not saleable. But even if it were comparatively large, and I've worked in markets downstate where WLS and WGN were rated and contenders against the locals, there still wasn't a practical sales value. So, for all intents that matter, that audience isn't a consideration. Actually, what I've gotten from this discussion is that even if the tracking methods -- 800 numbers, "Mention you heard it here on...," etc. have all shown that there are listeners all beyond the target areas. What happens is that the sales department doesn't like data that doesn't fit their assumptions, and dismisses it out of hand. Actually, it's a lot less sinister than that. It's that there are not sufficient numbers of them to be saleable to advertisers. The fact is that few people actually listen to any given station out of the local coverage area. Skywave listening is still going on, but not in saleable numbers. There is no mechanism for selling a widely scattered irregular, unmeasured audience. For an audience to be saleable, it needs to be measured, and fall in to the correct demographic, psychographic, and geographic areas. A zip code with less than 100 listeners, is statistically zero. A zip code with an unreliable signal is of no value. Believe me, if the numbers supported it, WLS would have a sales office in Shreveport, Louisiana. But the only one regularly listening to WLS in Shreveport, was me, in 1984. There were a half dozen of my friend in St Louis, who listened to WLS. Most of them were in Radio. Most would prefer to listen to KXOK. The signal was stronger, clearer, and more reliable. Even in the 60's there only pockets of listeners to skywave activity. Widely scattered, occasional listeners are of no statistical presence. And not saleable. The bottom line is that there's a bottom line. And anything that can't materially affect it is not considered. That's the nature of Radio in the US. It's always about the money. Hence IBOC interference issues outside of the ADI are not a consideration. If you're going to argue objectionable interference, it has to be within the ADI. I don't think anyone is arguing against that point now. I think, however, there is a lot of dismay among readers and posters that the sales people are working with a model that doen't fit reality. Actually, the sales people are working the ONLY reality: That the only listeners that matter are the ones that are saleable. In the US, Radio is always, and has always been about the money They then target their sales in exactly that way -- the local pizza joint is of no use to a Miami listener, but J&R Music World certainly would be. It seems to be a self-perpetuating... myth, for lack of a better word. Especially today, when people are more than willing to do commerce cross-country for normally local items such as used cars. People are willing to do business cross country. And advertisers buy national radio. But radio is SOLD according to local numbers. Skywave numbers are not statistically present, nor practically operable. Literally, to few, to far between to be useful. Look at it this way: Radio has two customers, listeners and advertisers. The job of the guy on the air is to sell the listeners to the advertisers. To set the price, the guy on the air needs to have hard numbers...how many are listening, in which zipcodes, at what times, in what demographic groups, and for how long. And then those numbers are compared to the advertiser's target customer in the zip codes in which the advertiser does the bulk of his/her business. There are other factors, for the purpose of this illustration, these are the important ones. Now, say you have listeners 400 miles away, well out of the groundwave, and well into skywave. How many do you expect there to be in any give zip code? 10? 100? If the conversion ratio of sales to impressions is 1 in 10, that means to buy that station, one could expect between 1 and 10 sales to result from a given period's advertising. 1 in 10 is very optimistic. So,the cost/benefit ratio is too high for that buy. Now in the case of a mail order business such as, taking your example, J&R, yes a clear channel station could produce a few sales here and there though skywave listening, but consider, that the numbers, again, are small compared to the local audience. And it's the size and listening frequency of the local audience that sets the rate for the J&R buy. Again, there is no statistical benefit to including the skywave listener. Making any measurement of the skywave audience prohibitively expensive. Either way, they don't matter in the real world of Radio. Because they produce no revenue enhancement. ...and back in the 70s, certainly there was absolutely no excuse for not knowing your coverage pattern. WABC was a clear channel station, back when there were clear channels. Why have the clear channel status if not for the coverage area? Clears were established when radio was in it's infancy. When audience measurements were clumsy, and before the psychographic nature or listening was understood. Those were also different times. Like the 60's and 70's when Radio was in its adolescence, Radio use was not the same. Programming was done through much different means, often by people who did not really understand the potential of the medium. Today, Radio is a mature product. And it's programmed and sold in a much different way than it was then. With unjustifiable expenses cut (and some justifiable ones as well) and among those, are the catering to the skywave audience. And a lot of what was going on when you were hearing long distance dedications on CKLW was show biz. It may or may not correspond to the reality of the business model. A definite perception was catered to, there. But that's all it was: a perception. Get a listener from South Fox Crotch, stroke them a little on the air, send a post card, and a t-shirt. Play up the strength of the station as a national powerhouse. While what really mattered, What ONLY mattered was the local ratings. LOCAL. Because they were saleable. What you hear on the air is showbiz. Bigger than life. More important than God. But that's just the show. King Kong is still only 3 foot 6. As for the CKLW target. Practically speaking, the were a Detroit station. And they sold the Detroit market. Nonetheless, they were a Canadian station, and different rules, different business models apply than those for US stations. Targets are one thing. Rules are another. And location determines the rules. Not targets. One of the things that's easily forgotten, is that Radio is an entertainment business. (loose definitions apply.) What you hear is often not really what it seems. There's a lot behind the curtain that is intentionally not on display before the listening audience. Meaning that what you hear is often not what you get. A long distance dedication is a great ego boost to the jocks at the station and the PD running the show. It's great to have your name smeared across multiple states. But as a practical business tool, it's only an imaginary benefit. The business model is something quite different. And practical realities far more limited than what's implied to those on your side of the grille cloth. IMHO, the IBOC debacle will be as harmful to AM radio as the elimination of clear channel designations. Some bureaucrat with the heart of a calculator is going to wonder why ad revenue is dropping, all the while looking at unchanging numbers massaged to fit his faulty model his coverage area. Actually, his model gets more accurate every day. What changes is the amount of effort he's willing to put forth to serve it. Truth is that few Radio Executives recognize any benefit to doing things the hard way...or the expensive way. When cheap and simple sells just as well.... And it's always about the money. |
IBOC Article
When I was in the Army (ARADCOM) at Scott Air Force Base,Illinois in
1963 and at Fort Knox,Kentucky in 1963,everybody listened to WHAS out of Louisville,Kentucky and so did I.Sometimes I would tune my transistor shirt pocket to KXOK and KWK out of St.Louis,Missouri.Years later,when Jim White got his own radio talk show out of KMOX in St.Louis,I used to listen to his radio talk show on up untill he retired. cuhulin |
IBOC Article
Telamon wrote: In article , "David Eduardo" wrote: wrote in message oups.com... You realize if they ever turn on HD at night, DXing will be history. And the couple of hundred AM DXers left, most of whom are anti-radio and luddites, will just be SOL. Overly harsh assessment. I listen to stations out of the area for content. Other people also fall into this group. Some advertising is regional and national not just local so distant advertising does work. -- Telamon Ventura, California ************************************************** ************************** The explanation of profit maximization is rather depressing. Three items of note a (1) CKLW was ordered by the CRTC to cease and desist in its whoring of the Detroit market and to follow Canadian broadcast regulations. It complied and is now serving Windsor as a less profitable operation. (2) CFRB (Canada's First Rogers Batteryless) is a private station but has operated CFRX (6070) to serve the boondocks for at least half a century. As the skip lengthens out at night, it is heard all over the world. How does this fit the business model of maximum profits? (3) More and more stations are simulcasting on the internet. Why are they doing this if it doesn't maximize profits in their trading area? It is amusimg that so many listerers who jeered at the BBC method of financing the radio service are now rushing to pay the satellite broadcasters $10 to get commercial-free programs. I am afraid that quality programming will get lost in all this maximum profit drive. Will the vast wasteland sound any better in digital? |
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