New Receiving Antenna Comments, And Grounding Question
 

Hi,

In the category of "why the heck didn't I do that years ago," thought I'd
relate my experience
with a new HF receiving only antenna.

Up to now, have had a simple random length wire running around the four
sides of my attic.
Worked, and was able to receive many stations, but was always disappointing.

Bought the PAR EF-SWL antenna, and just put it up outside as an Inverted-L,
and away from the house by
about 75 feet or so. Coax run-in to the receiver.
Wow, what an incredible difference.
The noise level is way, way down.

Question; The PAR ends in a Balun, from which I have a wire to a ground bar
I pounded into the ground next to it.
From there, the coax starts.

I also have a chassis ground from the radio to a nearby cold water pipe.
Have been putting it on and off trying to decide if it helps to have this
additional ground, or hurts.
There is of course the ground loop questions, etc. about having two grounds
(the earth ground by the Balun, and this one to the cold water pipe)

Hate to admit it, but am having trouble deciding if it helps.
At times, and for different freq's, I sort of think it
either helps, or makes no difference, at other time, perhaps a bit more
noisy.

Most of the time, I believe, it makes absolutely no difference whether this
chassis receiver ground wire is on or off.

**Anyone have any thoughts or comments regarding having this additional
ground ? **

Should it make a difference ?
I tend to think it shouldn't matter, as they usually suggest grounding the
coax, Also, right where it enters the house, which would
be pretty much equivalent.

There is, of course, also the grounding pin of the AC power line, which,
pretty much ends up at the same
place, namely a cold water pipe via a ground/neutral wire, from the AC
Service Box.

Curious about what all you experts think re these configurations.
Not too sharp with this, and would appreciate any thoughts on.

Thanks,
Bob

New Receiving Antenna Comments, And Grounding Question
 

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 17:16:11 -0400, "Robert11"
wrote:

Hi,

In the category of "why the heck didn't I do that years ago," thought I'd
relate my experience
with a new HF receiving only antenna.

Up to now, have had a simple random length wire running around the four
sides of my attic.
Worked, and was able to receive many stations, but was always disappointing.

Bought the PAR EF-SWL antenna, and just put it up outside as an Inverted-L,
and away from the house by
about 75 feet or so. Coax run-in to the receiver.
Wow, what an incredible difference.
The noise level is way, way down.

Question; The PAR ends in a Balun, from which I have a wire to a ground bar
I pounded into the ground next to it.
From there, the coax starts.

I also have a chassis ground from the radio to a nearby cold water pipe.
Have been putting it on and off trying to decide if it helps to have this
additional ground, or hurts.
There is of course the ground loop questions, etc. about having two grounds
(the earth ground by the Balun, and this one to the cold water pipe)

Hate to admit it, but am having trouble deciding if it helps.
At times, and for different freq's, I sort of think it
either helps, or makes no difference, at other time, perhaps a bit more
noisy.

Most of the time, I believe, it makes absolutely no difference whether this
chassis receiver ground wire is on or off.

**Anyone have any thoughts or comments regarding having this additional
ground ? **

Should it make a difference ?
I tend to think it shouldn't matter, as they usually suggest grounding the
coax, Also, right where it enters the house, which would
be pretty much equivalent.

There is, of course, also the grounding pin of the AC power line, which,
pretty much ends up at the same
place, namely a cold water pipe via a ground/neutral wire, from the AC
Service Box.

Curious about what all you experts think re these configurations.
Not too sharp with this, and would appreciate any thoughts on.

Thanks,
Bob


Is there lightning where you live?

New Receiving Antenna Comments, And Grounding Question
 

In article ,
"Robert11" wrote:

Hi,

In the category of "why the heck didn't I do that years ago," thought
I'd relate my experience with a new HF receiving only antenna.

Up to now, have had a simple random length wire running around the
four sides of my attic. Worked, and was able to receive many
stations, but was always disappointing.

Bought the PAR EF-SWL antenna, and just put it up outside as an
Inverted-L, and away from the house by about 75 feet or so. Coax
run-in to the receiver. Wow, what an incredible difference. The
noise level is way, way down.

Question; The PAR ends in a Balun, from which I have a wire to a
ground bar I pounded into the ground next to it. From there, the coax
starts.

I also have a chassis ground from the radio to a nearby cold water
pipe. Have been putting it on and off trying to decide if it helps to
have this additional ground, or hurts. There is of course the ground
loop questions, etc. about having two grounds (the earth ground by
the Balun, and this one to the cold water pipe)

Hate to admit it, but am having trouble deciding if it helps. At
times, and for different freq's, I sort of think it either helps, or
makes no difference, at other time, perhaps a bit more noisy.

Most of the time, I believe, it makes absolutely no difference
whether this chassis receiver ground wire is on or off.

**Anyone have any thoughts or comments regarding having this
additional ground ? **

Should it make a difference ? I tend to think it shouldn't matter, as
they usually suggest grounding the coax, Also, right where it enters
the house, which would be pretty much equivalent.

There is, of course, also the grounding pin of the AC power line,
which, pretty much ends up at the same place, namely a cold water
pipe via a ground/neutral wire, from the AC Service Box.

Curious about what all you experts think re these configurations. Not
too sharp with this, and would appreciate any thoughts on.

Congratulations on the improved antenna.

You don't say which radio you own but chances are the third prong
(ground) is the radio chassis so another ground wire to the radio case
won't make a difference.

The important ground is at the antenna UNUN.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

New Receiving Antenna Comments, And Grounding Question
 

An interesting experiment is take an AC voltmeter on low range,
and measure the voltage between two places on your lawn.

I usually get about a quarter volt at about 20 feet apart.
--
Ron Hardin


On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

To Telamon - From OP: New Receiving Antenna Comments, And Grounding Question
 

Hi,

Sorry i forgot to mention: have a JRC NRD 545

You're undoubtedly correct.
Why, though, provide an additional ground connection off of the barrier /
terminal strip ?

Bob

----------------------------
"Telamon" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Robert11" wrote:

Hi,

In the category of "why the heck didn't I do that years ago," thought
I'd relate my experience with a new HF receiving only antenna.

Up to now, have had a simple random length wire running around the
four sides of my attic. Worked, and was able to receive many
stations, but was always disappointing.

Bought the PAR EF-SWL antenna, and just put it up outside as an
Inverted-L, and away from the house by about 75 feet or so. Coax
run-in to the receiver. Wow, what an incredible difference. The
noise level is way, way down.

Question; The PAR ends in a Balun, from which I have a wire to a
ground bar I pounded into the ground next to it. From there, the coax
starts.

I also have a chassis ground from the radio to a nearby cold water
pipe. Have been putting it on and off trying to decide if it helps to
have this additional ground, or hurts. There is of course the ground
loop questions, etc. about having two grounds (the earth ground by
the Balun, and this one to the cold water pipe)

Hate to admit it, but am having trouble deciding if it helps. At
times, and for different freq's, I sort of think it either helps, or
makes no difference, at other time, perhaps a bit more noisy.

Most of the time, I believe, it makes absolutely no difference
whether this chassis receiver ground wire is on or off.

**Anyone have any thoughts or comments regarding having this
additional ground ? **

Should it make a difference ? I tend to think it shouldn't matter, as
they usually suggest grounding the coax, Also, right where it enters
the house, which would be pretty much equivalent.

There is, of course, also the grounding pin of the AC power line,
which, pretty much ends up at the same place, namely a cold water
pipe via a ground/neutral wire, from the AC Service Box.

Curious about what all you experts think re these configurations. Not
too sharp with this, and would appreciate any thoughts on.

Congratulations on the improved antenna.

You don't say which radio you own but chances are the third prong
(ground) is the radio chassis so another ground wire to the radio case
won't make a difference.

The important ground is at the antenna UNUN.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

New Receiving Antenna Comments, And Grounding Question
 

Robert11,

I never found there to be much of a difference in grounding any radio
chassis to a cold H2O pipe myself-- your mileage may vary, but it may be
more hassle than it's worth to implement if you notice no real difference.

The new antenna sounds like a very good installation compared to what you
had before. The rule of thumb I was taught to go by concerning antennas is
try get them outdoors and up as high as you can. In the case of an
inverted-L design, those work well for most receiver applications.

Good listening to you,

Jackie

To Telamon - From OP: New Receiving Antenna Comments, And Grounding Question
 

On Fri, 21 Apr 2006 19:11:49 -0400, "Robert11"
wrote:

Hi,

Sorry i forgot to mention: have a JRC NRD 545

You're undoubtedly correct.
Why, though, provide an additional ground connection off of the barrier /
terminal strip ?

You can opt to use a ground lifter on the power cord and single-ground
the unit to a better ground via the ground terminal. Especially in a
facilitiy where the electricity mains are not in EMT and the ground
wire is a 12 g wire snaking through 50 or more feet of walls to a
breaker box.

Being Well Grounded is the Best Foundation for Every Radio Shack
 

Telamon,

Being Well Grounded is the Best Foundation for Every Radio Shack
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...a/message/9152

The Third Wire in the AC Power Cord is by-design an "AC Power
Return Path" -not- and RF Signal Ground Path.

Current Three Wire 'design' is for the delivery of AC Power.
(H)(R)
=(G)=
All three Wires are usually just 1/16" Multi-Stranded Copper Wire.
- - - The Current AC Power Electrical Plug End design looks like :
|| |
O

A better Three Wire 'design' is for the delivery of AC Power
to RF Signal Processing Equipment would be :
(H)(R) 1/8" Multi-Stranded Copper Wire
[===] Flat 1/4" Wide by 1/16" Thick Copper Webbing for RF Ground
- - - The better RF Signal Ground Plug End would look like :
|| |
=== 1/2" Wide by 1/32" Thick

B U T ! - Until then a Second Ground Wire that is by-design an
RF Signal Ground is recommended for most if not all equipment
in the Radio Shack - IHMO

The use of a Flat Webbed Cable or Copper Strap from the Radio
Shack's Ground to the Receiver is by-design specifically to create
an RF Signal Ground Path for that piece of equipment.

Ideally there is an RF Ground Window leading into the Radio Shack
and Everything is "TIED" into it to Create :

The Common RF Ground Radio Shack.
= The Zero Potential Radio Shack.
= The Noise Free Radio Shack.

NOTE - The RF Ground Window is 'tied' to a good earthen Ground Rod
that is Bonded to the House's own AC Power System.

Rec.Radio.Shortwave - Seaches :
* Ground + Bond + Electrical
GBE = http://tinyurl.com/kaxdn
* Ground + Window + Electrical
GWE = http://tinyurl.com/kz77e
* Radio + Shack + Ground + Window
RSGW = http://tinyurl.com/huxsn

Google Seach for : Radio + Shack
+ Ground + Window + Bond + Electrical
RSGWBE = http://tinyurl.com/lmv6z

being well grounded is the best foundation
for every radio shack - iane ~ RHF
Shortwave Listener Antennas = http://tinyurl.com/ogvcf
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortwave-SWL-Antenna/
SWL Antenna Group = http://tinyurl.com/ogvcf

To Telamon - From OP: New Receiving Antenna Comments, And Grounding Question
 

In article ,
"Robert11" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in
message

.com...
In article , "Robert11"
wrote:

Hi,

In the category of "why the heck didn't I do that years ago,"
thought I'd relate my experience with a new HF receiving only
antenna.

Up to now, have had a simple random length wire running around the
four sides of my attic. Worked, and was able to receive many
stations, but was always disappointing.

Bought the PAR EF-SWL antenna, and just put it up outside as an
Inverted-L, and away from the house by about 75 feet or so. Coax
run-in to the receiver. Wow, what an incredible difference. The
noise level is way, way down.

Question; The PAR ends in a Balun, from which I have a wire to a
ground bar I pounded into the ground next to it. From there, the
coax starts.

I also have a chassis ground from the radio to a nearby cold water
pipe. Have been putting it on and off trying to decide if it helps
to have this additional ground, or hurts. There is of course the
ground loop questions, etc. about having two grounds (the earth
ground by the Balun, and this one to the cold water pipe)

Hate to admit it, but am having trouble deciding if it helps. At
times, and for different freq's, I sort of think it either helps,
or makes no difference, at other time, perhaps a bit more noisy.

Most of the time, I believe, it makes absolutely no difference
whether this chassis receiver ground wire is on or off.

**Anyone have any thoughts or comments regarding having this
additional ground ? **

Should it make a difference ? I tend to think it shouldn't matter,
as they usually suggest grounding the coax, Also, right where it
enters the house, which would be pretty much equivalent.

There is, of course, also the grounding pin of the AC power line,
which, pretty much ends up at the same place, namely a cold water
pipe via a ground/neutral wire, from the AC Service Box.

Curious about what all you experts think re these configurations.
Not too sharp with this, and would appreciate any thoughts on.

Congratulations on the improved antenna.

You don't say which radio you own but chances are the third prong
(ground) is the radio chassis so another ground wire to the radio
case won't make a difference.

The important ground is at the antenna UNUN.

Hi,

Sorry i forgot to mention: have a JRC NRD 545

You're undoubtedly correct. Why, though, provide an additional ground
connection off of the barrier / terminal strip ?

The ground prong is for safety. Manufactures have two ways to go.
Either make the entire exterior non-conductive with a minimum value of
voltage insulation and use a polarized plug or go with the third ground
prong to earth ground that is not normally supposed to carry current.
This ground prong goes to the conductive cabinet of the unit. If a hot
wire inside the unit touches the cabinet it then causes a short circuit
blowing a fuse or breaker preventing electrocution. The white return
wire is supposed to carry the normal operating current for the device.

In the USA at least the black wire is the hot wire with gold contacts
on connectors, white wire is the return with silver colored contacts
and green is the ground. Often the screw to put the ground wire on is
painted green or marked in a obvious way. Wall sockets and power cords
to appliances are all polarized to maintain this relationship of hot,
return and earth ground.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Being Well Grounded is the Best Foundation for Every Radio Shack
 

In article . com,
"RHF" wrote:

Telamon,

Being Well Grounded is the Best Foundation for Every Radio Shack
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...a/message/9152

The Third Wire in the AC Power Cord is by-design an "AC Power Return
Path" -not- and RF Signal Ground Path.

Snip

I know that but it still operates as an RF return. The impedance is
higher than what you would want for it to be a good ground and worse it
usually has plenty of noise on it so it should be your last choice.

If the mutual inductive coupling to the hot and return wires was not bad
enough the ground wire often carries noise currents capacitively coupled
from the insides of devices.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

Being Well Grounded is the Best Foundation for Every Radio Shack
 

Telamon - Well written except two little words were missing.

I know that but it still operates as a 'poor' to 'marginal' RF return.
The impedance is higher than what you would want for it to be a
good ground and worse it usually has plenty of noise on it so it
should be your last choice.

This is the very reason 'if' at all possible a separate Ground Wire
should be used as the "Primary" RF Ground to the Radios and
other equipment in the Radio Shack.

Especially if you are going to be using an External Antenna
which requires a Good Ground like an Inverted "L" Antenna
with a 9:1 Matching Transformer and Coax Cable feed-in-line.


iane ~ RHF

Being Well Grounded is the Best Foundation for Every Radio Shack
 

David,

What Works For You - Works For You !

Glad to Hear that You are Enjoying Your Radios
and Antennas - Keep Well Grounded :o) ~ RHF

To Telamon - From OP: New Receiving Antenna Comments, And Grounding Question
 

On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 03:10:50 GMT, Telamon
wrote:


In the USA at least the black wire is the hot wire with gold contacts
on connectors, white wire is the return with silver colored contacts
and green is the ground. Often the screw to put the ground wire on is
painted green or marked in a obvious way. Wall sockets and power cords
to appliances are all polarized to maintain this relationship of hot,
return and earth ground.
Neutral?

Being Well Grounded is the Best Foundation for Every Radio Shack
 

On 22 Apr 2006 01:09:00 -0700, "RHF"
wrote:

Telamon - Well written except two little words were missing.

I know that but it still operates as a 'poor' to 'marginal' RF return.
The impedance is higher than what you would want for it to be a
good ground and worse it usually has plenty of noise on it so it
should be your last choice.

This is the very reason 'if' at all possible a separate Ground Wire
should be used as the "Primary" RF Ground to the Radios and
other equipment in the Radio Shack.

Especially if you are going to be using an External Antenna
which requires a Good Ground like an Inverted "L" Antenna
with a 9:1 Matching Transformer and Coax Cable feed-in-line.


iane ~ RHF
.
There is a ground on the cable. Adding a second ground (or 3rd if
there is a 3 wire power cord) can cause more noise. In most urban
environments the RF improvement to be realized from having a fancy
receiver ground is buried way down in the noise floor. You'd be
better served by talking your neighbors into getting rid of their $5
light dimmers.

To Ground ? -or- Not To Ground ? {Your Radio} That is the Question !
 

For One and All,

To Ground ? -or- Not To Ground ? {Your Radio} That is the Question !
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...a/message/9182

Is a 'separate' Ground Wire needed for a Radio
when it is already connected to the AC "Mains"
and a well grounded Antenna System ?

Is Grounding a Radio in the Shack a redundancy
when the Antenna System is well Grounded ?

Is the whole concept of a "Ground Window" for a
Radio Shack 'over kill' and a waste of money ?

You Got To Be Confounded . . . -or- Maybe Well Grounded
You Have an Opinion - Lets Hear It - iane ~ RHF

Being Well Grounded is the Best Foundation for Every Radio Shack
 

On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 20:28:10 GMT, Telamon
wrote:



2. Another situation is with old house wiring where there is no ground
in the AC mains system. Adding the ground would help with a single wire
Marconi type antenna.

1 and 2 above, the two exceptions, does not apply if a Hertzian antenna
is used.

A Marconi antenna is a 1/4 wave vertical radiator with a formal system
of ground radials. It is not just any old end fed monopole.

To Ground ? -or- Not To Ground ? {Your Radio} That is the Quest...
 

On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 19:19:23 -0500, wrote:

All you need is one good ground.Actually though,and I know I did once
post a guys webpage thingy in this here very,very newsgroup,,,, you just
might not need a ground at all.
cuhulin

I would ground for electrical safety first. Unless you're
transmitting that should be sufficient.

To Ground ? -or- Not To Ground ? {Your Radio} That is the Question !
 

In article . com,
"RHF" wrote:

For One and All,

To Ground ? -or- Not To Ground ? {Your Radio} That is the Question !
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Shortw...a/message/9182

Is a 'separate' Ground Wire needed for a Radio
when it is already connected to the AC "Mains"
and a well grounded Antenna System ?

Is Grounding a Radio in the Shack a redundancy
when the Antenna System is well Grounded ?

Is the whole concept of a "Ground Window" for a
Radio Shack 'over kill' and a waste of money ?

You Got To Be Confounded . . . -or- Maybe Well Grounded
You Have an Opinion - Lets Hear It - iane ~ RHF

It's more than just an opinion. It is reasoning based on facts.

You are mixing up topics. Two threads got started on grounds at the same
time. We were posting about RF grounds and now you brought the "ground
window" into it. The "ground window" is for lightening protection not RF
ground.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

To Telamon - From OP: New Receiving Antenna Comments, And Grounding Question
 

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 02:32:07 GMT, m II wrote:

David wrote:
On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 03:10:50 GMT, Telamon
wrote:



In the USA at least the black wire is the hot wire with gold contacts
on connectors, white wire is the return with silver colored contacts
and green is the ground. Often the screw to put the ground wire on is
painted green or marked in a obvious way. Wall sockets and power cords
to appliances are all polarized to maintain this relationship of hot,
return and earth ground.

Neutral?


The white in a normal 120V receptacle is an identified, grounded(1)
conductor. A white in a 120/240V outlet such as an electric dryer, is a
neutral. It carries any unbalanced load between the two hots.

All neutrals are identified, grounded conductors, but not all
identified, grounded conductors are neutrals.


(1) not to be confused with a groundING conductor.

According to the terminology in the CEC and NEC, the
"grounding" conductor is for the safety ground, i.e., the
green
or bare or green with a yellow stripe wire. The word
"neutral"
is reserved for the white when you have a circuit with more
than
one "hot" wire. Since the white wire is connected to neutral
and
the grounding conductor inside the panel, the proper term is
"grounded conductor". However, the potential confusion
between
"grounded conductor" and "grounding conductor" can lead to
potentially lethal mistakes - you should never use the bare
wire
as a "grounded conductor" or white wire as the "grounding
conductor",
even though they are connected together in the panel.

[But not in subpanels - subpanels are fed neutral and ground
separately from the main panel. Usually.]

Note: do not tape, colour or substitute other colour wires for
the
safety grounding conductor.

In the trade, and in common usage, the word "neutral" is used
for "grounded conductor". This FAQ uses "neutral" simply to
avoid potential confusion. We recommend that you use
"neutral"
too. Thus the white wire is always (except in some light
switch applications) neutral. Not ground.
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/electrical-...ection-17.html

To Telamon - From OP: New Receiving Antenna Comments, And Grounding Question
 

David - Thank You for Neutralizing the confusion and
keeping us all well Grounded on this Topic :o) ~ RHF

To Telamon - From OP: New Receiving Antenna Comments, And Grounding Question
 

In article
,
Telamon wrote:

In article ,
"Robert11" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in
message

gy .com...
In article , "Robert11"
wrote:

Hi,

In the category of "why the heck didn't I do that years ago,"
thought I'd relate my experience with a new HF receiving only
antenna.

Up to now, have had a simple random length wire running around
the four sides of my attic. Worked, and was able to receive many
stations, but was always disappointing.

Bought the PAR EF-SWL antenna, and just put it up outside as an
Inverted-L, and away from the house by about 75 feet or so.
Coax run-in to the receiver. Wow, what an incredible
difference. The noise level is way, way down.

Question; The PAR ends in a Balun, from which I have a wire to
a ground bar I pounded into the ground next to it. From there,
the coax starts.

I also have a chassis ground from the radio to a nearby cold
water pipe. Have been putting it on and off trying to decide if
it helps to have this additional ground, or hurts. There is of
course the ground loop questions, etc. about having two grounds
(the earth ground by the Balun, and this one to the cold water
pipe)

Hate to admit it, but am having trouble deciding if it helps. At
times, and for different freq's, I sort of think it either
helps, or makes no difference, at other time, perhaps a bit more
noisy.

Most of the time, I believe, it makes absolutely no difference
whether this chassis receiver ground wire is on or off.

**Anyone have any thoughts or comments regarding having this
additional ground ? **

Should it make a difference ? I tend to think it shouldn't
matter, as they usually suggest grounding the coax, Also, right
where it enters the house, which would be pretty much
equivalent.

There is, of course, also the grounding pin of the AC power
line, which, pretty much ends up at the same place, namely a
cold water pipe via a ground/neutral wire, from the AC Service
Box.

Curious about what all you experts think re these
configurations. Not too sharp with this, and would appreciate
any thoughts on.

Congratulations on the improved antenna.

You don't say which radio you own but chances are the third prong
(ground) is the radio chassis so another ground wire to the radio
case won't make a difference.

The important ground is at the antenna UNUN.

Hi,

Sorry i forgot to mention: have a JRC NRD 545

You're undoubtedly correct. Why, though, provide an additional
ground connection off of the barrier / terminal strip ?

The ground prong is for safety. Manufactures have two ways to go.
Either make the entire exterior non-conductive with a minimum value
of voltage insulation and use a polarized plug or go with the third
ground prong to earth ground that is not normally supposed to carry
current. This ground prong goes to the conductive cabinet of the
unit. If a hot wire inside the unit touches the cabinet it then
causes a short circuit blowing a fuse or breaker preventing
electrocution. The white return wire is supposed to carry the normal
operating current for the device.

In the USA at least the black wire is the hot wire with gold contacts
on connectors, white wire is the return with silver colored contacts
and green is the ground. Often the screw to put the ground wire on is
painted green or marked in a obvious way. Wall sockets and power
cords to appliances are all polarized to maintain this relationship
of hot, return and earth ground.

I can see some people are still confused about some points.

Current travels in a loop. DC batteries, AC power mains, RF current all
travel in a loop. People recognize this when they draw a circuit as in
basic circuit analysis but it is forgotten when applied to either RF or
AC power mains supply.

The power mains is AC or alternating current. This voltage is stepped
up and down throughout the power distribution system with transformers.
Now you must understand that when power goes through a transformer it
is now isolated from ground. The two wires from the transformer
secondary are hot or have voltage potential RELATIVE to EARTH GROUND.

Now this relationship of both secondary leads from the last transformer
to your house is usually modified at the input panel. Now here come
another concept where things purposely change. One of these secondary
wires is connected to EARTH GROUND through a GROUND ROD. This wire
becomes the "NEUTRAL" because it is neutralized to ground through the
connection to the ground rod. Now the other secondary wire has
alternating voltage on it RELATIVE to EARTH GROUND and is called the
hot wire.

Notice that the voltage relationship between each wire to earth ground
is changed through the use of the ground rod. Black is the hot, white
is the return or neutral and green is the safety earth ground. Normally
all the power flows on the black and white wires. If you connect a
light bulb to a white wire and the other side to a ground rod there is
no power to light it. If you connect the black wire and ground rod it
will light up.

Also notice that the voltage relationship between the two wire does not
change only the voltage from each wire to EARTH GROUND. This is a
common mode voltage shift relative to ground. Either transformer
secondary wire could have been chosen to be the return.

Final step down power pole also usually has a ground wire on it and so
do your neighbors. Since you now have multiple grounds on a power line
to your house and there is a voltage drop along the line this generates
a voltage gradient in the earth between the power system ground rods.
Now you know how it happens that you will see a voltage potential
across separate ground rods.

The two wires, black and white, are the AC mains power circuit. All
loads go between these two wires. Black and white are the source and
return, which all loads are across.

Now we consider the third wire or EARTH GROUND wire in the three wiring
system used today. This third and separate wire is also connected to a
bonded strip that is the EARTH GROUND in the power panel. There are TWO
BONDED STRIPS in the panel, one for return and the other for earth
ground. This green earth ground wire is supposed to connect to the
conductive cabinet of any appliance plugged into the AC power mains.
Now if the hot wire contacts the cabinet there is a short circuit to
earth ground blowing the fuse or breaker in the power panel. This
prevents AC power from going through YOU to EARTH GROUND.

This green wire is for safety purposes and does not normally but can
carry the return current to power a device or appliance in case of an
internal fault.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

To Telamon - From OP: New Receiving Antenna Comments, And Grounding Question
 

On Sun, 23 Apr 2006 22:41:12 GMT, Telamon
wrote:


Now this relationship of both secondary leads from the last transformer
to your house is usually modified at the input panel. Now here come
another concept where things purposely change. One of these secondary
wires is connected to EARTH GROUND through a GROUND ROD. This wire
becomes the "NEUTRAL" because it is neutralized to ground through the
connection to the ground rod. Now the other secondary wire has
alternating voltage on it RELATIVE to EARTH GROUND and is called the
hot wire.


Now if the hot wire contacts the cabinet there is a short circuit to
earth ground blowing the fuse or breaker in the power panel. This
prevents AC power from going through YOU to EARTH GROUND.

This green wire is for safety purposes and does not normally but can
carry the return current to power a device or appliance in case of an
internal fault.

Have you ever had to deal with a 3 wire 3 phase power drop (i.e.
without a neutral)? Not very common. Drives electricians nuts.

To Telamon - From OP: New Receiving Antenna Comments, And Grounding Question
 

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 02:51:52 GMT, m II wrote:

David wrote:

Have you ever had to deal with a 3 wire 3 phase power drop (i.e.
without a neutral)? Not very common. Drives electricians nuts.


Why would it do that? A three wire feed implies a balanced load, such as
a three phase motor, charger or welder supply. Voltage drop is measured
line to line and line current is still measured the same way, as are
power factor numbers.

The only difference in a three phase motor connection is assuring
correct direction for motor rotation. Some things break in a dramatic
fashion if turned the wrong way.


Where does the 120 come from?

To Telamon - From OP: New Receiving Antenna Comments, And Grounding Question
 

David wrote in
:

On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 02:51:52 GMT, m II wrote:

David wrote:

Have you ever had to deal with a 3 wire 3 phase power drop (i.e.
without a neutral)? Not very common. Drives electricians nuts.


Why would it do that? A three wire feed implies a balanced load, such as
a three phase motor, charger or welder supply. Voltage drop is measured
line to line and line current is still measured the same way, as are
power factor numbers.

The only difference in a three phase motor connection is assuring
correct direction for motor rotation. Some things break in a dramatic
fashion if turned the wrong way.


Where does the 120 come from?


Pennsylvania Power & Light Co.


SC

To Telamon - From OP: New Receiving Antenna Comments, AndGrounding Question
 

David wrote:
On Mon, 24 Apr 2006 02:51:52 GMT, m II wrote:


David wrote:


Have you ever had to deal with a 3 wire 3 phase power drop (i.e.
without a neutral)? Not very common. Drives electricians nuts.


Why would it do that? A three wire feed implies a balanced load, such as
a three phase motor, charger or welder supply. Voltage drop is measured
line to line and line current is still measured the same way, as are
power factor numbers.

The only difference in a three phase motor connection is assuring
correct direction for motor rotation. Some things break in a dramatic
fashion if turned the wrong way.



Where does the 120 come from?


The cycles of each phase are out by that many electrical degrees in
relation to each other. I've never seen 120V three wire 3 phase. The
lowest voltage 3 phase 3 wire I've experienced is 208 volts.

If there is a 'wye' connection with a central white leg, (3 phase 4
wire) then you will see 120 volts from a hot leg to this white (neutral)
and 208 volts between any two hots.


The numerical stuff is covered he

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Three_phase

The really scary math happens with major short circuits on a leg causing
asymmetric fault currents.

Uneven power factor loads in the phases can make some interesting vector
diagrams..

it's been a while since school...sigh...

mike

To Telamon - From OP: New Receiving Antenna Comments, And Grounding Question
 

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 04:52:54 GMT, m II wrote:




The cycles of each phase are out by that many electrical degrees in
relation to each other. I've never seen 120V three wire 3 phase. The
lowest voltage 3 phase 3 wire I've experienced is 208 volts.

If there is a 'wye' connection with a central white leg, (3 phase 4
wire) then you will see 120 volts from a hot leg to this white (neutral)
and 208 volts between any two hots.


The numerical stuff is covered he

http://encyclopedia.laborlawtalk.com/Three_phase

The really scary math happens with major short circuits on a leg causing
asymmetric fault currents.

Uneven power factor loads in the phases can make some interesting vector
diagrams..

it's been a while since school...sigh...

mike
Don't tell me, tell them.

To Telamon - From OP: New Receiving Antenna Comments, And...
 

Metinks e' (me) mights looks aroond for some pen pal galfriends on
Ventura Beach.
cuhulin

To Telamon - From OP: New Receiving Antenna Comments, And...
 

My married Irish lady friend wayyyyyy over yonder across the big
pond,she is emailing me now.I am busy!
cuhulin