New Eton E5 gloat
 

Actually, for $130 - $150, I would have gotten the Sony 7600GR, with
Sync Detc...

New Eton E5 gloat
 

I have several Sony portables and love most of them. Unfortunately I have
to agree with you in ALL respects about the 7600GR. Sorry, Joe...



"lsmyer" wrote in message ...
I have already tried the 7600GR and I wasn't impressed. To me, it wasn't
nearly sensitive enough, plus it has NO tuning wheel, which for me is a
definite negative. As far as the sync detection goes, it worked, but it
was really noisy and whistly. And if memory serves me well, the sound
quality is very weak.

Thinking I might have received a lemon, I sent back my first one, got a
replacement and it was just the same, so I sent it back as well. Two
years later, I ordered a third one, and it was no better. I sold it on
ebay.

In my opinion, the 7600GR is way over-priced and way over-rated. For my
tastes, the E5 is the radio I wished the 7600GR had been.

New Eton E5 gloat
 

That's interesting - I heard that the 7600Grs sync detc injects some
noise and that it doesn't lock onto weak signals very well. As with
all filters, the audio quality suffers, even cheap/bad PLL circuitry
injects some noise. The S350 is s typical example, where the narrow /
wide and low-pass filters have little effect and only muffle the audio.
I tried the S350 and it was the cheapist piece of crap radio, so for
AM DXing I just bought a $25 PLL RS radio that performs, as well as,
the S350. Too many radios are over-hyped - hell, my car radio received
everything the S350 could. The CCradio and SRII are over-hyped, as
well...

New Eton E5 gloat
 

LOLOLOLOLOLOL ROTFLMAO!
Be careful what you ask for. He'll show you !




"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Joe Analssandrini wrote:

Also, please remember - I'm NEVER wrong. I'm PERFECT. Just ask me -
I'll tell you*. ;-)


I'll have to see the nail holes before I believe you.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

New Eton E5 gloat
 

What is there to gloat about - spending $150 on a radio, when there is
nothing of interest on SW anymore ?

New Eton E5 gloat
 

No wonder that author of this message post wants it removed in three
days, and not have it archived - I would be embarressed too, for
bragging about spending $150 on this radio !

New Eton E5 gloat
 

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

If he has all of the right nail holes, I'll need to see the bloody
cross next! ;-)

Sorry, Mike, I sold the cross on Ebay.

Best,

Joe

New Eton E5 gloat
 

Joe Analssandrini wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

If he has all of the right nail holes, I'll need to see the bloody
cross next! ;-)

Sorry, Mike, I sold the cross on Ebay.

Best,

Joe


If you were perfect you would have never let it go. :(


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

New Eton E5 gloat
 

In article .com,
"Joe Analssandrini" wrote:

Hello.

While Drake's synchronous detection circuit is generally excellent,
when it is locked on variable-strength signals, it often "warbles."
While this is not often noticeable on a "talk/news" program, it is
often VERY noticeable on music. (It is often noticeable on the Voice
of Russia - whose signal is often quite variable - musical shows;
it's also noticeable on the Voice of VietNam's musical shows as well
as Radio Bulgarias's and others.) The pitch of a note changes
annoyingly - as if the music was "sour-ing." If you own one of these
receivers, try it for yourself on a musical show.

Snip

That does not happen on my Drake R8B and I don't recall that happening
on the R8 I used to own. Could be you are not tuned exactly to the
station. Put the radio in CW mode with a larger than default filter to
zero beat the station and then switch back to AM sync to see if that
warbling goes away. If that does not fix it then the Drake might need a
tune up or you have another adverse reception problem like an
additional on channel slightly off frequency carrier.

If you have it enabled the 7030 will auto tune itself so you won't see
that problem.

I own both radios and the sync performance is comparable between the
radios but for the side band selectable feature on the Drake, which the
7030 does not have.

By the way a station you can hear a warbling 1 to 2 KHz tone on is
Italy's RAI International. The tone changes with the modulation. It is
very distinctive sound and once you hear it you can easily identify that
station within seconds despite not knowing the language.

Another practical test (and example) is when the BBC (and a few other
stations) shifts transmitters on the same frequency. There is then no
signal for 10 - 30 seconds. My Grundig Satellit 800's lock will
generally not re-engage - with the radio's AGC set to "slow" and the
sync "on" - when the new transmitter comes on the air (I cannot say
wthether the Drake R8B or SW8 exhibits this phenomenon as I have not
personally heard it on those sets) but my AOR's ALWAYS does, and
perfectly too, with no delay.

I have had the Drake sync drift to the on channel noise or some faint
off frequency carrier in the temporary absence of the BBC station
switching over. Sometimes it reacquires rapidly, other times it drifted
off due to the presence of other weak off frequency signals and then it
whines a bit before it re-locks. I have not had the 7030 in this
listening situation so I don't know how it would behave for sure but I
expect it would not be much different than the Drake.

You can't expect the radio to recover from a no carrier for 30 seconds
quickly when you have sync engaged and the AGC on slow. Normally for AM
I have the AGC on fast unless the signal is rapidly fluttering. The
fluttering is usually due to polar propagation. Slow is normal for SSB.
Normal lock time on the Drake R8B is something like 1 to 2 seconds.

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

New Eton E5 gloat
 

Joe Analssandrini wrote:
Hello.

While Drake's synchronous detection circuit is generally excellent,
when it is locked on variable-strength signals, it often "warbles."
While this is not often noticeable on a "talk/news" program, it is
often VERY noticeable on music. (It is often noticeable on the Voice of
Russia - whose signal is often quite variable - musical shows; it's
also noticeable on the Voice of VietNam's musical shows as well as
Radio Bulgarias's and others.) The pitch of a note changes annoyingly -
as if the music was "sour-ing." If you own one of these receivers, try
it for yourself on a musical show.

I've had two R8B's in the past six years. I've listened to hundreds of
hours of music and never heard what you're describing. I did hear
something like that on an R8 which was made in the early 90's but that
model had a completely different sync' design than the R8B.

This occurs on the Grundig Satellit 800, the (later-production) Drake
SW8, and the Drake R8B, all of which use the same circuit. (I do not
own the Drake receivers, but I have heard them, and this effect, at
friends' houses and at my own house.) This, in my opinion, is NOT
really a "major flaw." How often does one listen to music on SW
nowadays? Once in a while, my personal Grundig Satellit 800 will
"almost" lose lock on a deep fade. Only twice that I can remember (in 6
years of ownership) has it actually lost lock.

However, this NEVER occurs on my AOR AR7030 Plus which "locks"
perfectly and completely and which, in over two years of ownership, has
NEVER lost lock.

Neither have my R8B's. Sometimes it will take a second or two to lock on
a station but once locked it never loses it, even during a deep fade.

Another practical test (and example) is when the BBC (and a few other
stations) shifts transmitters on the same frequency. There is then no
signal for 10 - 30 seconds. My Grundig Satellit 800's lock will
generally not re-engage - with the radio's AGC set to "slow" and the
sync "on" - when the new transmitter comes on the air (I cannot say
wthether the Drake R8B or SW8 exhibits this phenomenon as I have not
personally heard it on those sets) but my AOR's ALWAYS does, and
perfectly too, with no delay.

As I said, the R8B sync' can occasionally take a second to lock,
particularly under the circumstances you describe above. It depends on
how well the sync' circuit is aligned.

With my Satellit 800, I must turn off the sync and then turn it back
on, also setting the AGC to "fast" when doing this and only after the
sync circuit locks can I turn the AGC back to "slow." Two of Drake's
service technicians have told me that this is normal behavior so I
should presume it is the same with the Drake-branded sets. Again, I do
not regard this as a "major" problem (how often does it actually
happen?), but note that it can be overcome. Certainly AOR has done so.

The Sony ICF-SW7600GR's sync circuit is far below those two in overall
quality. Yet, it too generally performs well. After all, a portable
owner is not really trying for exotic DX and, on the types of signals a
portable handles well, Sony's sync circuit makes a BIG difference in
the quality of the audio. Selective-fading distortion has always been a
"bane" of SW listeners as well as MW DXers and this circuit can totally
eliminate that form of distortion.

Others may disagree with me or find Sony's (or any other) sync circuit
to be of little use. (However I firmly believe those users do not know
how to properly use it.) But the circuit can be turned off if the user
does not want it on a particular transmission and I feel it is FAR
better to have this circuit when desired than not to have it at all.
Especially since there is now no price "premium" charged for it, why
buy a comparably-priced portable radio without the circuit?

I recall seeing posts on this group where listeners say they don't care
about having a sync' detector on their receiver because they can not
hear any significant improvement in the audio quality with one. I don't
get that. The improvement seems obvious to me. This does not include the
R-75, which has a poorly designed (defective?) sync' detector.

But I digress. Having compared Drake's synchronous detection circuit
and AOR's side-by-side, I can confidently state that, while Drake's is
excellent, AOR's is superb.

Is the difference between excellent and superb equivalent to "far ahead"?

New Eton E5 gloat
 

In article .com,
"Joe Analssandrini" wrote:

Hello.

My terminology may have been confusing and hard to understand. What I
meant was that the pitch of a sustained musical note will change while
using the Drake synchronous circuit. This happens when the signal is
subject to fading and the circuit attempts to maintain lock. It is most
noticeable on musical shows, naturally. The note sounds as though it's
being lowered a semitone or sometimes even more - in other words, the
music sounds as if it's going a bit flat or "sour."

Last night, I listened to VOR's "Jazz Show" on the Satellit 800 instead
of the AR7030 Plus. Naturally, during the show, the phenomenon never
occured at all. However, when, at 0258, I switched frequencies (from
9665 kHz to 9860 kHz), and VOR was broadcasting their interval signal
(The Great Gate of Kiev), you could hear the "note-flattening" effect
very easily! And, as I said, this sort of thing never occurs with the
AR7030 Plus.

I noticed this "warbling" (probably a bad term but I don't know what
else to call it) almost as soon as I bought the set back in 2000. When
I had occasion to call Drake, I queried their technician about it and
he said that performance was normal. A couple of years later, when I
had occasion to send the set to Drake for adjustment and repair, I
asked the technician if this could be corrected. He said Drake was
well-aware of the phenomenon but that it was inherent in the design of
their circuit. He told me most people do not notice it but those with
"perfect pitch" (something with which I have been blessed) will hear
it.

To make myself as clear as I know how, I would rate the Drake
synchronous detection circuit as 4 5/8 "stars" out of 5 and AOR's as 4
7/8 out of 5. (The fault with AOR's sync circuit is the split-second
muting which occurs whenever the sync is engaged and you re-tune,
either with the knob or with the remote control. There is NO muting at
all when tuning or re-tuning via the RxWINGS program so, at least for
me, the point is generally moot.)

In any case, it is my opinion that during actual listening, the AOR
AR7030 Plus' synchronous detection circuit is "superb" and the Drake
circuit is "merely" excellent.

I can (and do!) live with both.

I don't have perfect pitch so I guess I have not heard the effect you
noted. I'm trying to understand your example so I can hear it. Are you
saying that on the voice of Russia Interval signal itself one of the
notes is flat and only the one note? If that is the case is that a high
or low note? I'll have to listen to both radios to see if I can hear the
difference. Even though I don't have the perfect pitch ability I should
be able to hear this as a difference between the radios but if you have
more information maybe I can't hear the effect.

Both radios have selectable filters and passband tuning that shape the
sound. Usually I don't hear any tonal effects due to the sync but I can
easily hear tonal differences due to:
1. Tuning the VCO from right on to slightly off frequency.
2. Filter selection.
3. Passband tuning.
4. Audio tone controls.
5. Notch filter.

Generally how the audio sounds is mostly affected by the filter and
passband tuning, which I fiddle with to get the best high frequency
response depending on conditions. I guess I would be surprised that a
change in the audio would result from using the sync on the Drake and
that something else is causing it like the filter response not being
flat on the Drake or the way the operator controls are adjusted.

Maybe something I can listen to that is more repetitive like the tones
on WWV. Do you hear a difference there?

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

New Eton E5 gloat
 

Joe Analssandrini wrote:

Hello.

My terminology may have been confusing and hard to understand. What I
meant was that the pitch of a sustained musical note will change while
using the Drake synchronous circuit. This happens when the signal is
subject to fading and the circuit attempts to maintain lock. It is most
noticeable on musical shows, naturally. The note sounds as though it's
being lowered a semitone or sometimes even more - in other words, the
music sounds as if it's going a bit flat or "sour."

That's what I thought you meant. I did hear this on an R8 but not on my
two R8B's.

Last night, I listened to VOR's "Jazz Show" on the Satellit 800 instead
of the AR7030 Plus. Naturally, during the show, the phenomenon never
occured at all. However, when, at 0258, I switched frequencies (from
9665 kHz to 9860 kHz), and VOR was broadcasting their interval signal
(The Great Gate of Kiev), you could hear the "note-flattening" effect
very easily! And, as I said, this sort of thing never occurs with the
AR7030 Plus.

I noticed this "warbling" (probably a bad term but I don't know what
else to call it) almost as soon as I bought the set back in 2000. When
I had occasion to call Drake, I queried their technician about it and
he said that performance was normal. A couple of years later, when I
had occasion to send the set to Drake for adjustment and repair, I
asked the technician if this could be corrected. He said Drake was
well-aware of the phenomenon but that it was inherent in the design of
their circuit. He told me most people do not notice it but those with
"perfect pitch" (something with which I have been blessed) will hear
it.

Are you sure you mean perfect (absolute) pitch? That's when you know the
musical letter assigned to any note you hear without a reference note.
It's quite rare. I have relative pitch. I can hear a very slight change
in the pitch of a tone. I also know when I'm hearing a song in it's
original key. For example, I can whistle a popular song in it's original
key but I couldn't tell you the actual letter of that key. That's why
it's called 'relative'.

To make myself as clear as I know how, I would rate the Drake
synchronous detection circuit as 4 5/8 "stars" out of 5 and AOR's as 4
7/8 out of 5. (The fault with AOR's sync circuit is the split-second
muting which occurs whenever the sync is engaged and you re-tune,
either with the knob or with the remote control. There is NO muting at
all when tuning or re-tuning via the RxWINGS program so, at least for
me, the point is generally moot.)

In any case, it is my opinion that during actual listening, the AOR
AR7030 Plus' synchronous detection circuit is "superb" and the Drake
circuit is "merely" excellent.

I can (and do!) live with both.

I don't think I could live with the ergonomics of the '7030'. I know I
couldn't live with the menu carousel on the original R8. I hate going
through menus to change a setting. I want buttons. The more the merrier.
I can change the most commonly used functions on my R8B in the dark.

I'd like to hear an audio file of the 'warbling' phenomena on your R8B.
Could you post one somewhere for us to hear?

New Eton E5 gloat
 

In article .com,
Joe Analssandrini wrote:

My terminology may have been confusing and hard to understand. What I
meant was that the pitch of a sustained musical note will change while
using the Drake synchronous circuit. This happens when the signal is
subject to fading and the circuit attempts to maintain lock. It is most
noticeable on musical shows, naturally. The note sounds as though it's
being lowered a semitone or sometimes even more - in other words, the
music sounds as if it's going a bit flat or "sour."

Sounds like there's a bit too much FMing of the "BFO" (local carrier
oscillator).

One bit of trivia I remember reading in an old QEX (I think). Some of the
hams who work with real narrowband modes, (the guy who did "Synchronous
CW", Pettit?), was working on a phase shift keyed narrowband mode and
had a very stable receiver that could output the phase of the signal
it was tuned to. He said that some of the shortwave broadcast signals
were not stable in phase. (My guess, the result of some of these high
effiency digital transmitters). In the short term, the carrier phase
danced all around. This would give a PLL with a relativly short time
constant filter that sort of symptom.

Feedback control systems (ie. the Phase Locked Loop) can be a real bitch.

In any case, it is my opinion that during actual listening, the AOR
AR7030 Plus' synchronous detection circuit is "superb" and the Drake
circuit is "merely" excellent.

Do you work as an advertising copy writer? Or work in some sort of
sales/marketing job? ;-)

Mark Zenier
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

New Eton E5 gloat
 

Dear "Telamon,"

I hear this "note-flattening" on music fairly frequently when listening
to music via a station whose signal is variable in strength (when
listening on my Satellit 800 with AGC set to "slow," sync circuit
"on,." using 6.0 kHz [nominal] filter or the 4.0 kHz one, and the
station's frequency set to "spot-on"). Obviously, I cannot tell others
when they will hear this effect but it is very noticeable here on the
east coast when the VOR (whose signal varies in strength) is playing
their interval signal. Try listening to that. On the Satellit 800 (and
the two Drake radios I heard - R8B and SW8), a sustained note will
appear to change frequency, "flattening" momentarilyand then returning
to its proper frequency. This happens often.

It never happens with my AOR AR7030 Plus receiver.

Best,

Joe

"Telamon" wrote:

I don't have perfect pitch so I guess I have not heard the effect you
noted. I'm trying to understand your example so I can hear it. Are you
saying that on the voice of Russia Interval signal itself one of the
notes is flat and only the one note? If that is the case is that a high
or low note? I'll have to listen to both radios to see if I can hear
the
difference. Even though I don't have the perfect pitch ability I should
be able to hear this as a difference between the radios but if you have
more information maybe I can't hear the effect.

Both radios have selectable filters and passband tuning that shape the
sound. Usually I don't hear any tonal effects due to the sync but I can
easily hear tonal differences due to:
1. Tuning the VCO from right on to slightly off frequency.
2. Filter selection.
3. Passband tuning.
4. Audio tone controls.
5. Notch filter.

Generally how the audio sounds is mostly affected by the filter and
passband tuning, which I fiddle with to get the best high frequency
response depending on conditions. I guess I would be surprised that a
change in the audio would result from using the sync on the Drake and
that something else is causing it like the filter response not being
flat on the Drake or the way the operator controls are adjusted.

Maybe something I can listen to that is more repetitive like the tones
on WWV. Do you hear a difference there?

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

New Eton E5 gloat
 

Thanks for the audio note distortion description. I'll listen for it
and see if I can hear it. Must be the sync is drifting off center
carrier due to the tone created by the musical note looking like
another carrier to lock too during a selective fade. The difference
between the radios audio response could then be due to the PLL lock
time where the Drake drifts faster then the 7030 causing the change in
tone.


In article .com,
"Joe Analssandrini" wrote:

Dear "Telamon,"

I hear this "note-flattening" on music fairly frequently when listening
to music via a station whose signal is variable in strength (when
listening on my Satellit 800 with AGC set to "slow," sync circuit
"on,." using 6.0 kHz [nominal] filter or the 4.0 kHz one, and the
station's frequency set to "spot-on"). Obviously, I cannot tell others
when they will hear this effect but it is very noticeable here on the
east coast when the VOR (whose signal varies in strength) is playing
their interval signal. Try listening to that. On the Satellit 800 (and
the two Drake radios I heard - R8B and SW8), a sustained note will
appear to change frequency, "flattening" momentarilyand then returning
to its proper frequency. This happens often.

It never happens with my AOR AR7030 Plus receiver.

Best,

Joe

"Telamon" wrote:

I don't have perfect pitch so I guess I have not heard the effect you
noted. I'm trying to understand your example so I can hear it. Are you
saying that on the voice of Russia Interval signal itself one of the
notes is flat and only the one note? If that is the case is that a high
or low note? I'll have to listen to both radios to see if I can hear
the
difference. Even though I don't have the perfect pitch ability I should
be able to hear this as a difference between the radios but if you have
more information maybe I can't hear the effect.

Both radios have selectable filters and passband tuning that shape the
sound. Usually I don't hear any tonal effects due to the sync but I can
easily hear tonal differences due to:
1. Tuning the VCO from right on to slightly off frequency.
2. Filter selection.
3. Passband tuning.
4. Audio tone controls.
5. Notch filter.

Generally how the audio sounds is mostly affected by the filter and
passband tuning, which I fiddle with to get the best high frequency
response depending on conditions. I guess I would be surprised that a
change in the audio would result from using the sync on the Drake and
that something else is causing it like the filter response not being
flat on the Drake or the way the operator controls are adjusted.

Maybe something I can listen to that is more repetitive like the tones
on WWV. Do you hear a difference there?

--
Telamon
Ventura, California

New Eton E5 gloat
 

Dear "HFguy,"

You know, when I made that comment about perfect pitch I wondered, just
for a second, if anyone would bring up the difference between
"absolute" and "relative" perfect pitch but I figured that, in this
context, it didn't really matter. Obviously though you have made the
question. So to answer you: yes, like most who have "perfect pitch,"
mine is "relative."

I don't know if that is a "requirement" for hearing the
"note-flattening" (frequency or pitch-changing) effect that the Drake
synchronous circuit inserts into musical notes being transmitted (as it
attempts to maintain lock) over a variable-strength signal being
received (I believe that most people could hear it), but it is
sometimes an annoyance to me and, according to Drake, it is inherent in
their circuit. Obviously the technology does exist to eliminate that
problem.

But let me make this statement: there is no such thing as a "perfect"
radio or "perfect" circuits. Drake's synchronous circuit is extremely
well-designed and performs in a manner that would please just about
everyone, certainly including me. (I've owned my Grundig Satellit 800
for six years now and am VERY pleased with it.) I just think that, in
overall performance, AOR's synchronous detection circuit is somewhat
better.

Regarding the AOR AR7030 Plus: its so-called ergonomic "shortcomings"
have been blown WAY out of proportion. How often do we actually make
changes in operating parameters? Face it, we tune in a station, adjust
the passband (if necessary), adjust the filter (if necessary), engage
the notch filter (if necessary), and then we sit back and listen. (At
least that's what I do!) You can do all that on the AOR with just one
button push (and twirling one knob) for all of those functions (except
the notch filter which hunts out and "zaps" the offending heterodyne
automatically! - you don't need to use a knob). You can do much of that
from your easy chair across the room, if you like, with the remote
control, or, if you prefer (as I do), you can control practically the
whole shebang via your computer using one of several computer-control
programs (I use RxWings - its free and its fantastic!). Just about the
only people who could not use an AR7030 Plus are those whose VCRs
permanently blink "12:00."

Its a pity that reviews were quick to damn something new and
revolutionary like the AR7030 Plus and its operation. Many people
(including myself - for years!) were heavily influenced by these
reviews and therefore were reluctant to try this radio.

I am VERY glad that I overcame my fears and bought the set. You may
well stick to your views and you are welcome to them (and I respect
them) about "buttons," "controls," etc.(and, to tell the truth, I like
them too - they really look great and they impress the heck out of your
friends and relatives - "you REALLY know how to use that?!?"), but take
my word for it: you CANNOT get performance equal to that of the AOR
AR7030 Plus without spending twice (or more) its price (antennas and
all other things being equal). Check out the tables in PASSPORT 2006
and you'll see what I mean. And also note that this radio, now in its
eleventh year of production, is still one of PASSPORT's top receivers.
Not only that, but ANY AR7030 can be converted (for a price, of course)
to the latest specifications, hardware, and features by the factory.
(In other words, your 1996 set can be brought up to 2006 standards.)
This is excellent engineering. (For example, you cannot convert a JRC
NRD-535D to a JRC NRD545, or a Drake R8A to an R8B.)

And if an old "luddite" like myself can learn to operate this radio (it
took me all of thirty minutes), anyone can! Believe me, it really is
EASY to use and is the best shortwave radio I persoanlly have ever
heard or owned in almost fifty years of shortwave listening.

Best,

Joe

P.S. I don't know how to record a SW signal to computer. Try listening
to the interval signal of the Voice of Russia (if its signal-strength
is variable at your location as it is at mine). You will hear some of
the sustained notes go momentarily flat (change pitch) when listening
to it on a Drake radio or Grundig Satelit 800 (and possibly the new
Eton E1 if that radio also uses the same Drake sync circuit - it may
not) and then the note will "recover." Turn off the Drake sync circuit
and this effect does not happen. The notes stay on pitch..

P.P.S. As all of us Sony ICF7600GR owners know, Sony's sync circuit
injects a horrible"whistle" when it's trying to maintain lock on a weak
or rapidly-fading in and out signal. But, then, the ICFSW7600GR costs
only (at MOST) $150.00 and NO other currently-manufactured small
portable SW radio offers any sync circuit at all. Don't like that
effect? Turn the sync off! At least, with this radio, you can have the
circuit on when you want it (which is most of the time). And, as with
ALL radios that feature a well-designed sync circuit, audio quality is
improved (distortion is lowered) when the circuit is on.

"HFguy" wrote:

.... Are you sure you mean perfect (absolute) pitch? That's when you
know the
musical letter assigned to any note you hear without a reference note.
It's quite rare. I have relative pitch. I can hear a very slight change
in the pitch of a tone. I also know when I'm hearing a song in it's
original key. For example, I can whistle a popular song in it's
original
key but I couldn't tell you the actual letter of that key. That's why
it's called 'relative'.

.... I don't think I could live with the ergonomics of the '7030'. I
know I
couldn't live with the menu carousel on the original R8. I hate going
through menus to change a setting. I want buttons. The more the
merrier.
I can change the most commonly used functions on my R8B in the dark.

New Eton E5 gloat
 

"Jim Hackett" wrote:

.... If the AOR's synch is SUPERB, and the Drake's is excellent, where
does that
leave the Bell and Howell, whose designers felt the circuitry was
superb as
it was and opted not to inundate their users with meaningless knob
twiddling? I think you know the answer to that as well as I do....

Yes, Jim, I do. (I pity those who are not familiar with this radio.)
You understand that I was writing about "ordinary" "mediocre" shortwave
sets (such as the AOR AR7030 Plus, the Drake R8B, the Grundig Satellit
800, and one could also include the Ten-tec RX-340, the Watkins-Johnson
WJ-8711A, and/or any Racal, Collins, or Hammarlund model you care to
mention). These radios are obviously NOT in the same class as the Bell
+ Howell Radio ("Tune into the world from home. And tune into home from
faraway ... with this portable nine-band world receiver from Bell +
Howell. ... Expand your listening options with ... AM/megawatt and
shortwave channels.") (Jim, do ANY of your large collection of radios,
with the exception of your Bell + Howell, pick up AM/megawatt
channels?)

Those radios mentioned above, all of which are more expensive than the
Bell + Howell, need "special circuitry" - variable IF filters, sync
detectors, adjustable AGC controls, etc., etc., etc. to achieve what
the Bell + Howell does with its MINIMALIST circuitry (and it's so
EFFICIENT that it needs only two AA batteries - not included - to
operate!).

And the Bell + Howell even picks up TV sound!

Who needs sync circuits anyway?

Best,

Joe

New Eton E5 gloat
 

In article
,
Telamon wrote:

Thanks for the audio note distortion description. I'll listen for it
and see if I can hear it. Must be the sync is drifting off center
carrier due to the tone created by the musical note looking like
another carrier to lock too during a selective fade. The difference
between the radios audio response could then be due to the PLL lock
time where the Drake drifts faster then the 7030 causing the change in
tone.


In article .com,
"Joe Analssandrini" wrote:

Dear "Telamon,"

I hear this "note-flattening" on music fairly frequently when listening
to music via a station whose signal is variable in strength (when
listening on my Satellit 800 with AGC set to "slow," sync circuit
"on,." using 6.0 kHz [nominal] filter or the 4.0 kHz one, and the
station's frequency set to "spot-on"). Obviously, I cannot tell others
when they will hear this effect but it is very noticeable here on the
east coast when the VOR (whose signal varies in strength) is playing
their interval signal. Try listening to that. On the Satellit 800 (and
the two Drake radios I heard - R8B and SW8), a sustained note will
appear to change frequency, "flattening" momentarilyand then returning
to its proper frequency. This happens often.

It never happens with my AOR AR7030 Plus receiver.

Best,

Joe

"Telamon" wrote:

I don't have perfect pitch so I guess I have not heard the effect you
noted. I'm trying to understand your example so I can hear it. Are you
saying that on the voice of Russia Interval signal itself one of the
notes is flat and only the one note? If that is the case is that a high
or low note? I'll have to listen to both radios to see if I can hear
the
difference. Even though I don't have the perfect pitch ability I should
be able to hear this as a difference between the radios but if you have
more information maybe I can't hear the effect.

Both radios have selectable filters and passband tuning that shape the
sound. Usually I don't hear any tonal effects due to the sync but I can
easily hear tonal differences due to:
1. Tuning the VCO from right on to slightly off frequency.
2. Filter selection.
3. Passband tuning.
4. Audio tone controls.
5. Notch filter.

Generally how the audio sounds is mostly affected by the filter and
passband tuning, which I fiddle with to get the best high frequency
response depending on conditions. I guess I would be surprised that a
change in the audio would result from using the sync on the Drake and
that something else is causing it like the filter response not being
flat on the Drake or the way the operator controls are adjusted.

Maybe something I can listen to that is more repetitive like the tones
on WWV. Do you hear a difference there?
If I might add my two cents' worth - I think this "note-flattening" is
what I hear when I tune in a musical note, or any continuous tone, on
USB or LSB, then de-tune. The further away I get from the proper
frequency, the flatter or sharper the note gets. This can make music
sound really silly. But I don't have a sync circuit on my NRD-525, so I
can't comment on that function.

BTW, guitar players define PERFECT PITCH as when you throw an accordion
out a second story window and hit a banjo player in the head!

Greg

New Eton E5 gloat
 

.......those reviews.It's like those used car salesmen with their
glowing reviews.The only way to review a radio is to try it out for
yourself.
cuhulin

New Eton E5 gloat
 

I own one of those Bell & Howell AM/FM/Shortwave radios.For only $9.95
plus S&H when I bought it about two years and seven months ago from
www.carolwrightgifts.com I certainly wasen't expecting any great
shakes from that little cheap radio,and I wasen't disappointed in it
either.
cuhulin

New Eton E5 gloat
 

"Joe Analssandrini" wrote in message
oups.com...
Dear "Telamon,"

I hear this "note-flattening" on music fairly frequently when listening
to music via a station whose signal is variable in strength (when
listening on my Satellit 800 with AGC set to "slow," sync circuit
"on,." using 6.0 kHz [nominal] filter or the 4.0 kHz one, and the
station's frequency set to "spot-on"). Obviously, I cannot tell others
when they will hear this effect but it is very noticeable here on the
east coast when the VOR (whose signal varies in strength) is playing
their interval signal. Try listening to that. On the Satellit 800 (and
the two Drake radios I heard - R8B and SW8), a sustained note will
appear to change frequency, "flattening" momentarilyand then returning
to its proper frequency. This happens often.

It never happens with my AOR AR7030 Plus receiver.

Best,

Joe

Perhaps I could throw my two cents into the discussion. Qualify them by
saying I have no experience with any of the radios mentioned. What I have
experimented with is add-on synch AM detectors (both homebrew hardware synch
AM and software DSP with a 455kHz/15kHz downconverter) and Radio Shack
DX-394A and DX-394B radios as tuners (OK, OK, don't tune out just yet!).
With deep, rapidly fading signals, both detectors would warble, wow, groan
when fed by the 394A. Changing the RF Gain control setting on a stable
signal had a similar effect.

Some time later, I found that the detectors did not warble, wow or groan
with the DX-394B. The difference turned out to be that the B has a buffer
between the 2nd local oscillator and the 2nd mixer whereas the A does not.
This isolates the oscillator from variable loading caused by changing the
gain of the 2nd mixer. The 2nd mixer is on the AGC line so varying signal
strength affects its gain/loading and the AGC voltage is also affected by
the RF Gain control. I added a buffer to the A and now it's as stable as the
B.

Maybe there is something similar happening to a slight extent with those
radios on which you hear slight pitch changes. Rather than a warping
upstream oscillator with gross effects as in my case, maybe the PLL
oscillator in your higher class radios is being pulled by changes in the
strength of the input signal. You mention that it is most noticeable when
you use slow AGC - that would cause the most extreme and prolonged variation
of signal strength at the input of the detector. Why not use fast AGC? That
seems to be the norm for AM reception. Do you use slow or fast AGC on the
AOR7030?

Tom

New Eton E5 gloat
 

Dear Tom,

In general, "fast" AGC is for tuning and "slow" AGC is for listening,
in order to keep the noise level more-or-less constant and to minimize,
as much as possible, fading.

Best,

Joe

New Eton E5 gloat
 

Dear John,

No one denies that the Drake R8B is one of the finest shortwave radios
ever made. I almost bought one. But, in my opinion, the AR7030 Plus,
properly configured, is superior. You disagree with me and I respect
your opinion.

But please note: you wrote I think you are wrong in assuming that the
faults you find in your Sat 800 are experienced by Drake R8B owners

John, regarding the "fault" in the design of the Drake sync circuit, I
HEARD the effect on a Drake R8B (and an SW8 as well). And please note
that I said this is not a "major" flaw, in my opinion, just a minor
annoyance. But it is there, nonetheless.

Best,

Joe.

New Eton E5 gloat
 

"Tom Holden" wrote:

Do you use slow or fast AGC on the AOR7030?

Dear Tom,

I'm almost ashamed to write this reply: for listening, I generally do
not use either "fast" OR "slow" AGC on my AR7030m Plus.

I use "medium!"

I can just hear everybody now -- "GROAN!!"

Best,

Joe

New Eton E5 gloat
 

Joe Analssandrini wrote:

Dear Tom,

In general, "fast" AGC is for tuning and "slow" AGC is for listening,
in order to keep the noise level more-or-less constant and to minimize,
as much as possible, fading.

Best,

Joe


What do you consider "Fast" or "Slow"? The receivers we built had
seven different AGC time constants, up to 10 seconds.

..01 ms
.1 ms
1 ms
..01 second
.1 second
1 second
10 seconds


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

New Eton E5 gloat
 

"Joe Analssandrini" wrote in message
oups.com...
"Tom Holden" wrote:

Do you use slow or fast AGC on the AOR7030?

Dear Tom,

I'm almost ashamed to write this reply: for listening, I generally do
not use either "fast" OR "slow" AGC on my AR7030m Plus.

I use "medium!"

I can just hear everybody now -- "GROAN!!"

Best,

Joe

Joe, I wonder if the pitch shifting you hear on the Sat 800 or R8B might be
mitigated by using Fast AGC. That would maintain a more constant level to
the synch AM detector. Maybe you might hear pitch shifting on the 7030 if
you used Slow AGC.

While I agree with you that Fast AGC is advisable while tuning, I don't
think it is right to say that Slow AGC is always optimal for listening. I
think the choice depends on fading and interference. Rapid deep fading and
carrier-less SSB interference are best handled with Fast AGC. Slow AGC
provides lowest distortion on AM and SSB and eliminates fatiguing syllabic
pumping of background noise and interference on SSB speech. As always,
there's a tradeoff, and Medium is a compromise - as you apparently have
defaulted to on the 7030.

Of course, I have no idea what your Medium is. I tend to think of these
speeds to be on the order of:
Milliseconds Speed
tens Fast
hundreds Medium
thousands Slow

Boy, this Subject needs to be changed...E5 Gloat?

Tom

New Eton E5 gloat
 

Medium? I could be mistaken Joe,but aren't you in (in all due respect)
joking about that?
cuhulin

AGC
 

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
What do you consider "Fast" or "Slow"? The receivers we built had
seven different AGC time constants, up to 10 seconds.

.01 ms
.1 ms
1 ms
.01 second
.1 second
1 second
10 seconds

Michael, what receivers were these and why such incredibly fast AGC?
I assume these are release speeds; what were the corresponding attack
speeds?

Tom

New Eton E5 gloat
 

Cuhulin - Medium as in 'medium' {Mind Reading}
The AGC reads his mind and . . . sets itself ;-)

a little 's l o w' on the fast (up-take) ~ RHF

AGC
 

Tom Holden wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
What do you consider "Fast" or "Slow"? The receivers we built had
seven different AGC time constants, up to 10 seconds.

.01 ms
.1 ms
1 ms
.01 second
.1 second
1 second
10 seconds

Michael, what receivers were these and why such incredibly fast AGC?
I assume these are release speeds; what were the corresponding attack
speeds?

Tom


Microdyne 700 series, and other lines like their 1100, 1400 and 2800
series. They were telemetry systems, and they were typically used in
diversity mode so you needed the fast AGC for some applications. They
had matching integration times for attack and release. I should know, I
tested hundreds of the boards on the bench while using a time interval
counter and calculating the reciprocals on the slower ranges. :(


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

AGC
 

Radio Shack used to sell two different models of wireless frequency
counters.I have a big Radio Shack catalog around here somewhere they
gave me at the store at Metrocenter Mall in 2001.The catalog does list
them in there.Has anybody ever used any frequency counters similar to
that before,are they any good?
cuhulin

AGC
 

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
Tom Holden wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
What do you consider "Fast" or "Slow"? The receivers we built had
seven different AGC time constants, up to 10 seconds.

.01 ms
.1 ms
1 ms
.01 second
.1 second
1 second
10 seconds

Michael, what receivers were these and why such incredibly fast AGC?
I assume these are release speeds; what were the corresponding attack
speeds?

Microdyne 700 series, and other lines like their 1100, 1400 and 2800
series. They were telemetry systems, and they were typically used in
diversity mode so you needed the fast AGC for some applications. They
had matching integration times for attack and release. I should know, I
tested hundreds of the boards on the bench while using a time interval
counter and calculating the reciprocals on the slower ranges. :(

Equal attack and release times over the entire range seems so
unconventional, at least for HF, MF, LF radios. I see the Microdyne 700 is
VHF/UHF and does not support AM. Fading at VHF/UHF line-of-sight is probably
very different than for ionospheric propagation as are the modes supported
and the fact that a human is not decoding the output.

From my readings, it seems that Fast Attack (less than 10 ms and closer to 1
ms often touted) was preferred for HF/MF/LF AM/SSB with selectable Release
speeds from a few tens of ms to over a second. After experimenting with AGC
modifications with that design objective, I'm inclined to think that the
Attack should be proportional to the Release, say, 10-20 times faster, not a
constant 10 ms. A really fast attack and really slow release combo resulted
in a single impulse of interference knocking gain down for a long time.
Equal attack and release speeds when too slow result in ear-damaging swells
of volume or unmanaged bursts of interference.

What do you think?

Any idea what the attack/release speeds are on your SW radios?

Tom

AGC
 

Tom Holden wrote:

Equal attack and release times over the entire range seems so
unconventional, at least for HF, MF, LF radios. I see the Microdyne 700 is
VHF/UHF and does not support AM. Fading at VHF/UHF line-of-sight is probably
very different than for ionospheric propagation as are the modes supported
and the fact that a human is not decoding the output.

From my readings, it seems that Fast Attack (less than 10 ms and closer to 1
ms often touted) was preferred for HF/MF/LF AM/SSB with selectable Release
speeds from a few tens of ms to over a second. After experimenting with AGC
modifications with that design objective, I'm inclined to think that the
Attack should be proportional to the Release, say, 10-20 times faster, not a
constant 10 ms. A really fast attack and really slow release combo resulted
in a single impulse of interference knocking gain down for a long time.
Equal attack and release speeds when too slow result in ear-damaging swells
of volume or unmanaged bursts of interference.

What do you think?

Any idea what the attack/release speeds are on your SW radios?

Tom


The Microdyne equipment was used all the way to KL and KU band and
for a lot of different applications including tracking space probes for
NASA. They are used mostly for long range digital data collection so
they are a very different from common receivers. One thing that was
different was that they used a fully linear AGC control system, rather
than the common logarithmic. I don't have all of the manuals. Due to
the RDAs that I signed I had to leave them all behind. All I have
manuals for is the C-band receivers they built and sold to CATV systems
and TV stations.

As far as the SW receivers at hand, I haven't tested any of them on
the bench. I lost most of my test equipment during the hurricanes over
the last few years when water got into my shop. The only receiver that
works at the moment is a DX-375 and possibly my HP 312 Frequency
Selective Voltmeter. I have a X-30 that was butchered by a hack at a TV
shop. He really messed it up trying to pick up Rush Limbaugh on SW
rather than listen to him on a local talk radio station. Another
receiver is a classic. A National NC183R that is going to be completely
restored. First, I have to finish repairing what little test equipment
that I can, and replacing the rest.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida