Query Electrolytic Cap values
 

Hello, knowledgeble colleagues. I am replacing PS filter caps on an old tube
CW transmitter that I believe are (all) shot and responsible for the harsh AC
hash-n-hum. I'm not really trying to restore it; I just want to clean up the
signal to use it, so it's not important to me to try to conceal multiple caps
into the original paper holding combo can above the chassis.
There are some nonstandard values, however. Now, I know I can add the
capacitance sums by wiring in parallel to achieve my targeted uF requirements,
but can I use caps designated for higher V without consequence?
Can I substitute, e.g. a 450/30 and a 450/20 in parallel to replace a 400/50?
A 450/100 to replace a 400/100?
How 'bout a 450/8 to replace a 450/4? (Instead of bothering to put 2 in
series.)
As a general rule then, as long as I exceed Voltage and Capacitance values
called for in the schematic, am I ok?
Thanx in advance for your advice.

In general, electrolytic capacitors should be operated not terribly much
below their ratings. In the cases you cited, the difference is too small to
worry about, and the 450 V jobs will do fine as subs for the 400 V ones.

Also, there is no concern over ESR or leakage or even capacitance tolerance.

73, Bob

The higher voltage values are no problem. Do not stray to far from the
original Mfd values. Remember you can also series for example 2 200 volt
400Mfd caps to get a 400 Volt 200 Mfd cap.

Good luck in your endevors and if I can help you further, let me know.

Fred W4JLE


"Twelve VDC" wrote in message
...
Hello, knowledgeble colleagues. I am replacing PS filter caps on an old
tube
CW transmitter that I believe are (all) shot and responsible for the
harsh AC
hash-n-hum. I'm not really trying to restore it; I just want to clean up
the
signal to use it, so it's not important to me to try to conceal multiple
caps
into the original paper holding combo can above the chassis.
There are some nonstandard values, however. Now, I know I can add the
capacitance sums by wiring in parallel to achieve my targeted uF
requirements,
but can I use caps designated for higher V without consequence?
Can I substitute, e.g. a 450/30 and a 450/20 in parallel to replace a
400/50?
A 450/100 to replace a 400/100?
How 'bout a 450/8 to replace a 450/4? (Instead of bothering to put 2 in
series.)
As a general rule then, as long as I exceed Voltage and Capacitance
values
called for in the schematic, am I ok?
Thanx in advance for your advice.

Bob wrote:

In general, electrolytic capacitors should be operated not terribly much
below their ratings.

I am curious: where did you hear this and what is the rationale? I've
never heard anything similar before, although I suppose it is possible.

73 ... WA7AA


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Zoran Brlecic wrote:


Bob wrote:

In general, electrolytic capacitors should be operated not terribly much
below their ratings.

I am curious: where did you hear this and what is the rationale? I've
never heard anything similar before, although I suppose it is possible.

I tripped across the concept many years ago. Seems that electrolytic
caps are not created equal, said devices being dependent upon the plate
area and the reciprocal of the oxide layer thickness on the aluminum
electrode to supply the proper capacitance and on the oxide layer
thickness for the DC Working Volts rating. This oxide layer depends
upon the polarizing voltage for its maintenance, and the electrolytic
electrode is formulated to maintain the proper oxide thickness at the
capacitor's normal voltage. Insufficient voltage results in a thinner
than expected oxide layer, resulting in increased capacitance (not
normally a Bad Thing) and decreased breakdown voltage (which is a Bad
Thing). I don't know if it is possible for a derated cap to lose enough
oxide to drop its breakdown voltage below its normal working voltage, but
it would result in a dramatic failure if it ever did happen.

YMMV, IIRC, IANAL, and any other disclaimers one wishes to insert.
Perhaps there's a component engineer reading this group who could
speak to what I remember, or believe I remember, on this matter.

de kg7yy

Zoran Brlecic wrote:
Bob wrote:

In general, electrolytic capacitors should be operated not terribly much
below their ratings.


I am curious: where did you hear this and what is the rationale? I've
never heard anything similar before, although I suppose it is possible.

73 ... WA7AA


Hi,
In capacitor size/working voltage rating. I won't put lower
WV one, if in the case of filter cap. also I won't put lower value.
Anyhow, this type caps have wide tolerance in general.
73,
Tony, VE6CGX

Tony Hwang wrote:

In general, electrolytic capacitors should be operated not terribly much
below their ratings.

I am curious: where did you hear this and what is the rationale? I've
never heard anything similar before, although I suppose it is possible.

In capacitor size/working voltage rating. I won't put lower
WV one, if in the case of filter cap. also I won't put lower value.
Anyhow, this type caps have wide tolerance in general.

Tony, the issue is using an electrolytic cap not much *below* its
voltage rating, not using it above its maximum voltage. For example, a
cap rated 200V should, according to the poster, be used in the 150-200V
range, and not in the low voltage applications, like 12V or 24V.
This is what I asked about, since I'd never heard it before. Of course,
in practice, this is really a non-issue due to the physical size of the
caps, so no sane person will replace a 15V cap with a 450V one, at least
not on a permanent basis.

73 ... WA7AA




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Zoran Brlecic wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:

In general, electrolytic capacitors should be operated not terribly
much
below their ratings.


I am curious: where did you hear this and what is the rationale? I've
never heard anything similar before, although I suppose it is possible.


In capacitor size/working voltage rating. I won't put lower
WV one, if in the case of filter cap. also I won't put lower value.
Anyhow, this type caps have wide tolerance in general.


Tony, the issue is using an electrolytic cap not much *below* its
voltage rating, not using it above its maximum voltage. For example, a
cap rated 200V should, according to the poster, be used in the 150-200V
range, and not in the low voltage applications, like 12V or 24V.
This is what I asked about, since I'd never heard it before. Of course,
in practice, this is really a non-issue due to the physical size of the
caps, so no sane person will replace a 15V cap with a 450V one, at least
not on a permanent basis.

73 ... WA7AA




Hi,
There is a reason for that cosidering how this type caps work.
Putting in a 200WV cap in a 15WV application is not a good idea.
Tony

Tony Hwang wrote:

There is a reason for that cosidering how this type caps work.
Putting in a 200WV cap in a 15WV application is not a good idea.

Because...




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On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 01:38:56 GMT Zoran Brlecic
wrote:

Bob wrote:

In general, electrolytic capacitors should be operated not terribly much
below their ratings.

I am curious: where did you hear this and what is the rationale? I've
never heard anything similar before, although I suppose it is possible.

I hear it a lot, but never with any real justification. The only
reason that I can see why this would be a problem is that you've
wasted some money.

I really don't think a 50V electrolyic capacitor suffers a bit if you
only put 10V across it.

I've also never seen any mention of this in any manufacturer's data
sheets or catalogs.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Zoran Brlecic wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:

There is a reason for that cosidering how this type caps work.
Putting in a 200WV cap in a 15WV application is not a good idea.


Because...




Hi,
Please do your research on the 'net. If you replace low voltage one with
too high voltage ones, the cap. does not work well. Believe me.
73,
Tony, VE6CGX

Tony Hwang wrote:

There is a reason for that cosidering how this type caps work.
Putting in a 200WV cap in a 15WV application is not a good idea.

Because...


Hi,
Please do your research on the 'net. If you replace low voltage one with
too high voltage ones, the cap. does not work well. Believe me.


Well, look, this whole discussion started by me asking for reasons for
this. If I wanted to "do research on the net", I would have done so, but
not every question warrants a Web research and your "does not work well"
notion means little. Some posters have offered explanations and they
sound reasonable enough, but just saying "believe me" doesn't do it for
me. If I'd wanted to practice irrational blind belief, I would have
joined a religion.

73 ... WA7AA


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I really don't think a 50V electrolyic capacitor suffers a bit if you
only put 10V across it.

I've also never seen any mention of this in any manufacturer's data
sheets or catalogs.

Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA

Actually, it seems not only Jim is correct, but the Mouser catalog (#605) has
an *Application Note* at the top of its electrolytic cap products that state,
"A higher voltage capacitor may be used in a lower voltage application." It
does not elaborate or suggest there are limitations to this rule. (See Pg.'s
248, 249, 250, 251) 8~]

What a huge pile of equine excrement!

" Tony Hwang wrote:

There is a reason for that cosidering how this type caps work.
Putting in a 200WV cap in a 15WV application is not a good idea.

W4JLE wrote:

What a huge pile of equine excrement!


What's the problem now? Some liberals ****ed in your coffee again this
morning?






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You got that right...

"Zoran Brlecic" wrote in message
...
W4JLE wrote:

What a huge pile of equine excrement!


What's the problem now? Some liberals ****ed in your coffee again this
morning?






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On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 05:41:07 GMT Tony Hwang wrote:

Zoran Brlecic wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:

There is a reason for that cosidering how this type caps work.
Putting in a 200WV cap in a 15WV application is not a good idea.


Because...

Please do your research on the 'net. If you replace low voltage one with
too high voltage ones, the cap. does not work well. Believe me.

Well, isn't this part of the net? If I knew you I might have some
reason to just accept what you say on blind faith, but then again the
curious side of me would still like to know why.

I've asked around where I work and only come up with blank stares. The
only reasons we can come up with to avoid this are cost and space. I
haven't found any electronic or physics yet that would predict such an
outcome, nor have I EVER seen such an admonition in the data sheets
from any manufacturer.

Sorry, but I remain extremely skeptical.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:24:20 GMT Zoran Brlecic
wrote:

W4JLE wrote:

What a huge pile of equine excrement!


What's the problem now? Some liberals ****ed in your coffee again this
morning?

Actually, I think you'll find that the opinion above would be shared
by both liberals and conservatives.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Jim Adney wrote:

What a huge pile of equine excrement!


What's the problem now? Some liberals ****ed in your coffee again this
morning?


Actually, I think you'll find that the opinion above would be shared
by both liberals and conservatives.

Never mind, this is just a friendly jab at W4JLE's tendency to blame the
liberals for everything from the economy to the storms on Jupiter.

WA7AA

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"W4JLE" w4jle(remove to wrote in message
...
The higher voltage values are no problem. Do not stray to far from
the
original Mfd values. Remember you can also series for example 2
200 volt
400Mfd caps to get a 400 Volt 200 Mfd cap.


Not a good idea with electrolytics... if one goes "high leakage";
the other one gets overvolted ..

You've never "lived" until you had a 400 microfathead filtercap
blow up and unroll past your nose while doing "func test" on a board
that was mis-stuffed with a 100 WV cap that was supposed to be 450
WV.

Bob is right, and as a teacher told me, about electrolytics, that you ALSO
MUST consider DIODES in a supply, as in an earlier age, a item would have
bad diodes, you would shotgun them, only to see a problem develope in the
ELECTROLYTICS! (SHORT)! Turns out that that caps will derate their voltage
handleing capability
to the SUPPLY VOLTAGE, over time (see oxide thickness, discussion by BOB, it
diminishes over time, with lower voltage applied) ! , and that diodes build
up resistance, lowering their output voltage , over time. And, BTW, a
Electrolytic can be reformed to accept higher voltage, but the voltage must
be increased GRADUALLY, over time, say extra 20 volts/hour, until you get to
FULL RATED VOLTAGE. but to apply FULL STEAM all at once may lead to it
explodeing, or shorting!! Only places that over CAPACITANCE would come into
play would be in frequency passing circuits where a lower value would allow
a lower frequency responce to occur, or that a current inrush (I2xR ) would
exceed the capacity of supply xfmr to supply that current!
as info, Jim NN7K

--
No trees were killed in the sending of this message. However, a large number
of electrons were terribly inconvenienced !


"Robert Grizzard" wrote in message
...
Zoran Brlecic wrote:


Bob wrote:

In general, electrolytic capacitors should be operated not terribly
much
below their ratings.

I am curious: where did you hear this and what is the rationale? I've
never heard anything similar before, although I suppose it is possible.

I tripped across the concept many years ago. Seems that electrolytic
caps are not created equal, said devices being dependent upon the plate
area and the reciprocal of the oxide layer thickness on the aluminum
electrode to supply the proper capacitance and on the oxide layer
thickness for the DC Working Volts rating. This oxide layer depends
upon the polarizing voltage for its maintenance, and the electrolytic
electrode is formulated to maintain the proper oxide thickness at the
capacitor's normal voltage. Insufficient voltage results in a thinner
than expected oxide layer, resulting in increased capacitance (not
normally a Bad Thing) and decreased breakdown voltage (which is a Bad
Thing). I don't know if it is possible for a derated cap to lose enough
oxide to drop its breakdown voltage below its normal working voltage, but
it would result in a dramatic failure if it ever did happen.

YMMV, IIRC, IANAL, and any other disclaimers one wishes to insert.
Perhaps there's a component engineer reading this group who could
speak to what I remember, or believe I remember, on this matter.

de kg7yy