Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

KC8VKZ

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

In article ,
"Hamguy" wrote:

KC8VKZ

very sad situation:

Kind of strange they don't have any kind of decent ( even primitive)
comm system in place in the mines

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

In article ,
mike murphy wrote:

In article ,
"Hamguy" wrote:

KC8VKZ

very sad situation:

Kind of strange they don't have any kind of decent ( even primitive)
comm system in place in the mines

Each miner should be carrying personal communications like firefighters.

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

"Alien" wrote in message
...
In article ,
mike murphy wrote:

In article ,
"Hamguy" wrote:

KC8VKZ

very sad situation:

Kind of strange they don't have any kind of decent ( even primitive)
comm system in place in the mines

Each miner should be carrying personal communications like firefighters.

The problem with that being that when they are two miles deep in the mine,
radio comms are all but worthless. To get comms for the rescue workers, they
had to relay by radio from two points, then by wire from the last relay
point to the command center. One might suggest repeaters every so often, but
these could easily be damaged or destroyed during an explosion or cave-in.

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

The fire service if they go in a building they have on there belt this PASS
device. will sound so they can find you.
If you pass out and our still for ten minutes.
Thay do not radio for help.

ICM 2000 & ICM 2000 Plus Dragonfly PASS
The ICM 2000 and ICM 2000 Plus are integrated Computer modules
designed to meet the new NFPA-1982, 1998 Edition PASS standard and
NFPA-1981, 1997 Edition SCBA requirements for redundant End-of-Service Time
indicators (EOST).
The ICM 2000 is an all in one combination PASS and redundant alarm
module that can be added to any MSA MMR or BMR SCBA. Simply remove the
shoulder mounted pressure gauge and replace it with the ICM module.

The ICM 2000 Plus is an all in one combination PASS and redundant
alarm with a built in computer system that digitally displays SCBA
performance information. The ICM 2000 Plus also offers a data logging and
data downloading capability to retrieve up to 30 hours of SCBA usage
information. The data provides information about the time of use, air
consumption rate, ambient temperature and alarm activation. Through the
device's IR (Infrared) port, the data can be downloaded to a personal
computer for future evaluation.

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

Andrews Radiax....

mike murphy wrote:
In article ,
"Hamguy" wrote:


KC8VKZ


very sad situation:

Kind of strange they don't have any kind of decent ( even primitive)
comm system in place in the mines

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

In article ,
"Brenda Ann" wrote:

"Alien" wrote in message
...
In article ,
mike murphy wrote:

In article ,
"Hamguy" wrote:

KC8VKZ

very sad situation:

Kind of strange they don't have any kind of decent ( even primitive)
comm system in place in the mines

Each miner should be carrying personal communications like firefighters.

The problem with that being that when they are two miles deep in the mine,
radio comms are all but worthless. To get comms for the rescue workers, they
had to relay by radio from two points, then by wire from the last relay
point to the command center. One might suggest repeaters every so often, but
these could easily be damaged or destroyed during an explosion or cave-in.

I thought there were some freq which would pass thru rocks and earth to
great depths. LF perhaps, but that would present other problems. There
must be some way for them to reliably communicate other than by wire.

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

"Alien" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Brenda Ann" wrote:

"Alien" wrote in message
...
In article ,
mike murphy wrote:

In article ,
"Hamguy" wrote:

KC8VKZ

very sad situation:

Kind of strange they don't have any kind of decent ( even primitive)
comm system in place in the mines

Each miner should be carrying personal communications like
firefighters.

The problem with that being that when they are two miles deep in the
mine,
radio comms are all but worthless. To get comms for the rescue workers,
they
had to relay by radio from two points, then by wire from the last relay
point to the command center. One might suggest repeaters every so often,
but
these could easily be damaged or destroyed during an explosion or
cave-in.

I thought there were some freq which would pass thru rocks and earth to
great depths. LF perhaps, but that would present other problems. There
must be some way for them to reliably communicate other than by wire.

Lowfer comms require extensive antenna arrays that are not feasible in these
situations. About the only thing I can think of would be to place wired
communications systems with the wires in heavy conduit which is in turn set
into the cave walls and covered with steel and concrete. Perhaps something
like that could reliably survive most hazards of underground mining
(especially if set into the cave floor rather than the walls).

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

It is all Safety

Will the company go for the cost of a 5 mile long passive antenna in the
portative casing to be reliable for the men's safety? Ok maybe a woman
safety if she goes in.



12 may still be with us if they could have relayed a message. Or solved the
puzzle of the disaster in there last words.

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

Google "Cave Radio" and "CREG" to learn about specialized low freq cave
communications systems which would have helped in this scenario. Much of
this development is going on overseas.

The word I heard was that the conventional radio system in the mine
failed after the explosion.

It is a shame that the miners don't have a communications system, an
oxygen source and refuge other than a "curtain" under these situations.

My wife and I stayed up watching the "miracle" until it was found untrue
and were quite shocked.

Joe

Brenda Ann wrote:

"Alien" wrote in message
...


In article ,
"Brenda Ann" wrote:



"Alien" wrote in message
...


In article ,
mike murphy wrote:



In article ,
"Hamguy" wrote:



KC8VKZ


very sad situation:

Kind of strange they don't have any kind of decent ( even primitive)
comm system in place in the mines


Each miner should be carrying personal communications like
firefighters.


The problem with that being that when they are two miles deep in the
mine,
radio comms are all but worthless. To get comms for the rescue workers,
they
had to relay by radio from two points, then by wire from the last relay
point to the command center. One might suggest repeaters every so often,
but
these could easily be damaged or destroyed during an explosion or
cave-in.


I thought there were some freq which would pass thru rocks and earth to
great depths. LF perhaps, but that would present other problems. There
must be some way for them to reliably communicate other than by wire.



Lowfer comms require extensive antenna arrays that are not feasible in these
situations. About the only thing I can think of would be to place wired
communications systems with the wires in heavy conduit which is in turn set
into the cave walls and covered with steel and concrete. Perhaps something
like that could reliably survive most hazards of underground mining
(especially if set into the cave floor rather than the walls).





--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"©

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

"Follow The Money" ;-P

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

That was the night of the big game in our house.
Were were up till 1:30 or so Eastern Time.
We went to bed up beet her team won.
When I a woke at 6 am and hired the news I woke her we were shoked.

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

If anyone in charge of people's lives is watching... please check these
websites...

for buying time when the air is thin, or blackdamp situations:
http://www.submersiblesystems.com/

Gives some extra time for evac...
in a "trap" situation, not much one can do, as the problem is getting the
air scrubbed of CO2 and CO or whatever other gas is about.

for Mine/cave radio system stuff:
http://www.infomine.com/index/suppli...y_Limited.html
and
http://bcra.org.uk/creg/

rb



"Alien" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Brenda Ann" wrote:

"Alien" wrote in message
...
In article ,
mike murphy wrote:

In article ,
"Hamguy" wrote:

KC8VKZ

very sad situation:

Kind of strange they don't have any kind of decent ( even primitive)
comm system in place in the mines

Each miner should be carrying personal communications like
firefighters.

The problem with that being that when they are two miles deep in the
mine,
radio comms are all but worthless. To get comms for the rescue workers,
they
had to relay by radio from two points, then by wire from the last relay
point to the command center. One might suggest repeaters every so often,
but
these could easily be damaged or destroyed during an explosion or
cave-in.

I thought there were some freq which would pass thru rocks and earth to
great depths. LF perhaps, but that would present other problems. There
must be some way for them to reliably communicate other than by wire.

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

Woody wrote:

If anyone in charge of people's lives is watching... please check these
websites...

for buying time when the air is thin, or blackdamp situations:
http://www.submersiblesystems.com/


I hold a Master Scuba Diver rating and will tell you these things are
not thought of very well in the experienced scuba diving community.
They hold about 3 cft of air. That MIGHT give them 5 minutes of air at
best. Highly unlikely they would have made any difference in this mine
disaster. They were originally designed for military helicopter pilots
that crashed at sea, to give them time to get out of the aircraft and to
the surface.

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

Yep... seat belts can kill you too, under certain circumstance; but if only
one life is ever saved by this, isn't it worth it?

NOTHING is foolproof. One cannot prepare for every possibility, we just try
to prepare for as many as practical.

You are correct, in a 'trap' situation, spare air [as I said before] is only
a slim chance device. But shouldn't people be given EVERY chance?

[Walk into a black-damp and you'll wish you had one of these for your
retreat..]

I just didn't want to get into the debate that co2 scrubbing would be more
helpful than air/O2 in a 'trap' situation...
rb



"nitespark" wrote in message
news:wJ7wf.41531$Mi5.37103@dukeread07...


Woody wrote:

If anyone in charge of people's lives is watching... please check these
websites...

for buying time when the air is thin, or blackdamp situations:
http://www.submersiblesystems.com/


I hold a Master Scuba Diver rating and will tell you these things are not
thought of very well in the experienced scuba diving community. They hold
about 3 cft of air. That MIGHT give them 5 minutes of air at best.
Highly unlikely they would have made any difference in this mine disaster.
They were originally designed for military helicopter pilots that crashed
at sea, to give them time to get out of the aircraft and to the surface.

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

Woody wrote:
Yep... seat belts can kill you too, under certain circumstance; but if only
one life is ever saved by this, isn't it worth it?

NOTHING is foolproof. One cannot prepare for every possibility, we just try
to prepare for as many as practical.

You are correct, in a 'trap' situation, spare air [as I said before] is only
a slim chance device. But shouldn't people be given EVERY chance?

[Walk into a black-damp and you'll wish you had one of these for your
retreat..]

I just didn't want to get into the debate that co2 scrubbing would be more
helpful than air/O2 in a 'trap' situation...
rb

They already carry a device which will allow them an hour of air. How
many things do you think they can lug around and still do their jobs?

jak
snip

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

I agree nothing is foolproof, however seatbelts, in combination with
airbags have a proven record of dramatic decrease in injuries in a crash
and if there are injuries, a dramatic decrease in fatal injuries. The
facts prove that without question.

No such facts exist for the "spare air". Another poster mentioned they
already had devices that gave them an hour. I was not aware of that.
But I was in the fire service for 27 years. The 30lb SCBA units we used
were rated for 30 minutes and they had 45cft bottles. With a 3cft Spare
Air you can do the math. Even the newer high pressure SCBA's with the
composite bottles at 4500psi are only rated at 1 hour.

My only point is in a situation where rescue operations are spoken of in
"days" instead of minutes and seconds, a 3cft breathing device is pretty
much useless.

Woody wrote:
Yep... seat belts can kill you too, under certain circumstance; but if only
one life is ever saved by this, isn't it worth it?

NOTHING is foolproof. One cannot prepare for every possibility, we just try
to prepare for as many as practical.

You are correct, in a 'trap' situation, spare air [as I said before] is only
a slim chance device. But shouldn't people be given EVERY chance?

[Walk into a black-damp and you'll wish you had one of these for your
retreat..]

I just didn't want to get into the debate that co2 scrubbing would be more
helpful than air/O2 in a 'trap' situation...
rb



"nitespark" wrote in message
news:wJ7wf.41531$Mi5.37103@dukeread07...


Woody wrote:


If anyone in charge of people's lives is watching... please check these
websites...

for buying time when the air is thin, or blackdamp situations:
http://www.submersiblesystems.com/


I hold a Master Scuba Diver rating and will tell you these things are not
thought of very well in the experienced scuba diving community. They hold
about 3 cft of air. That MIGHT give them 5 minutes of air at best.
Highly unlikely they would have made any difference in this mine disaster.
They were originally designed for military helicopter pilots that crashed
at sea, to give them time to get out of the aircraft and to the surface.




--
I have never met a liberal street cop.

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

???? Which is exactly what I said as well.... no debate here.

I speak volume in litres, not cu.ft. but that other post is from another
planet, I agree.

rb

"nitespark" wrote in message
news:Pzhwf.41594$Mi5.11202@dukeread07...
I agree nothing is foolproof, however seatbelts, in combination with
airbags have a proven record of dramatic decrease in injuries in a crash
and if there are injuries, a dramatic decrease in fatal injuries. The
facts prove that without question.

No such facts exist for the "spare air". Another poster mentioned they
already had devices that gave them an hour. I was not aware of that. But
I was in the fire service for 27 years. The 30lb SCBA units we used were
rated for 30 minutes and they had 45cft bottles. With a 3cft Spare Air
you can do the math. Even the newer high pressure SCBA's with the
composite bottles at 4500psi are only rated at 1 hour.

My only point is in a situation where rescue operations are spoken of in
"days" instead of minutes and seconds, a 3cft breathing device is pretty
much useless.

Woody wrote:
Yep... seat belts can kill you too, under certain circumstance; but if
only one life is ever saved by this, isn't it worth it?

NOTHING is foolproof. One cannot prepare for every possibility, we just
try to prepare for as many as practical.

You are correct, in a 'trap' situation, spare air [as I said before] is
only a slim chance device. But shouldn't people be given EVERY chance?

[Walk into a black-damp and you'll wish you had one of these for your
retreat..]

I just didn't want to get into the debate that co2 scrubbing would be
more helpful than air/O2 in a 'trap' situation...
rb



"nitespark" wrote in message
news:wJ7wf.41531$Mi5.37103@dukeread07...


Woody wrote:


If anyone in charge of people's lives is watching... please check these
websites...

for buying time when the air is thin, or blackdamp situations:
http://www.submersiblesystems.com/


I hold a Master Scuba Diver rating and will tell you these things are not
thought of very well in the experienced scuba diving community. They hold
about 3 cft of air. That MIGHT give them 5 minutes of air at best.
Highly unlikely they would have made any difference in this mine
disaster. They were originally designed for military helicopter pilots
that crashed at sea, to give them time to get out of the aircraft and to
the surface.




--
I have never met a liberal street cop.

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

Hello! Welcome to Earth. Can you please show us this device you speak of???
An internet link perhaps?



"jakdedert" wrote in message
.. .
Woody wrote:
Yep... seat belts can kill you too, under certain circumstance; but if
only one life is ever saved by this, isn't it worth it?

NOTHING is foolproof. One cannot prepare for every possibility, we just
try to prepare for as many as practical.

You are correct, in a 'trap' situation, spare air [as I said before] is
only a slim chance device. But shouldn't people be given EVERY chance?

[Walk into a black-damp and you'll wish you had one of these for your
retreat..]

I just didn't want to get into the debate that co2 scrubbing would be
more helpful than air/O2 in a 'trap' situation...
rb

They already carry a device which will allow them an hour of air. How
many things do you think they can lug around and still do their jobs?

jak
snip

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

Woody wrote:
Google is your friend....

jak


Hello! Welcome to Earth. Can you please show us this device you speak of???
An internet link perhaps?



"jakdedert" wrote in message
.. .

Woody wrote:

Yep... seat belts can kill you too, under certain circumstance; but if
only one life is ever saved by this, isn't it worth it?

NOTHING is foolproof. One cannot prepare for every possibility, we just
try to prepare for as many as practical.

You are correct, in a 'trap' situation, spare air [as I said before] is
only a slim chance device. But shouldn't people be given EVERY chance?

[Walk into a black-damp and you'll wish you had one of these for your
retreat..]

I just didn't want to get into the debate that co2 scrubbing would be
more helpful than air/O2 in a 'trap' situation...
rb


They already carry a device which will allow them an hour of air. How
many things do you think they can lug around and still do their jobs?

jak
snip

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

Well yeah, that's the obvious first thing to do.... but still didn't find
anything you describe..?

The only [the standard] carry device offers about 30min and it isn't air,
it's a tiny O2 canister with a CO2 scrubber and re-breather bag.

Anything beyond that and it's a shoulder or back pack kept in a central
location, not carried.
rb



"jakdedert" wrote in message
.. .
Woody wrote:
Google is your friend....

jak


Hello! Welcome to Earth. Can you please show us this device you speak
of??? An internet link perhaps?



"jakdedert" wrote in message
.. .

Woody wrote:

Yep... seat belts can kill you too, under certain circumstance; but if
only one life is ever saved by this, isn't it worth it?

NOTHING is foolproof. One cannot prepare for every possibility, we just
try to prepare for as many as practical.

You are correct, in a 'trap' situation, spare air [as I said before] is
only a slim chance device. But shouldn't people be given EVERY chance?

[Walk into a black-damp and you'll wish you had one of these for your
retreat..]

I just didn't want to get into the debate that co2 scrubbing would be
more helpful than air/O2 in a 'trap' situation...
rb


They already carry a device which will allow them an hour of air. How
many things do you think they can lug around and still do their jobs?

jak
snip

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

Woody wrote:
Well yeah, that's the obvious first thing to do.... but still didn't find
anything you describe..?

The only [the standard] carry device offers about 30min and it isn't air,
it's a tiny O2 canister with a CO2 scrubber and re-breather bag.

Anything beyond that and it's a shoulder or back pack kept in a central
location, not carried.
rb

Okay, half an hour. You provided a link to something that would provide
an additional--what--minute or two?

What's the point?

jak



"jakdedert" wrote in message
.. .

Woody wrote:
Google is your friend....

jak



Hello! Welcome to Earth. Can you please show us this device you speak
of??? An internet link perhaps?



"jakdedert" wrote in message
t...


Woody wrote:


Yep... seat belts can kill you too, under certain circumstance; but if
only one life is ever saved by this, isn't it worth it?

NOTHING is foolproof. One cannot prepare for every possibility, we just
try to prepare for as many as practical.

You are correct, in a 'trap' situation, spare air [as I said before] is
only a slim chance device. But shouldn't people be given EVERY chance?

[Walk into a black-damp and you'll wish you had one of these for your
retreat..]

I just didn't want to get into the debate that co2 scrubbing would be
more helpful than air/O2 in a 'trap' situation...
rb


They already carry a device which will allow them an hour of air. How
many things do you think they can lug around and still do their jobs?

jak
snip

Lone Coal-Mine Survivor
 

The point was the thing you're missing right now... DIFFERENT systems for
different situations.
We were discussing CO2 scrubbers, oxygen systems and air systems... you
brought in a "device" that lasts an "hour" that they "carry"...
Kinda threw a wrench in the train...
That's all...
No big deal....

Oh, and the spare air thing.... It's a cu.ft. calculation... the product
specs say 57 breaths at 1.6L per breath....
However being that the average tidal volume is only 600cc, makes their specs
quite open to interpretation.... Might last 10 minutes, might last 18...
THAT was the point.
rb


"jakdedert" wrote in message
...
Woody wrote:
Well yeah, that's the obvious first thing to do.... but still didn't find
anything you describe..?

The only [the standard] carry device offers about 30min and it isn't air,
it's a tiny O2 canister with a CO2 scrubber and re-breather bag.

Anything beyond that and it's a shoulder or back pack kept in a central
location, not carried.
rb

Okay, half an hour. You provided a link to something that would provide
an additional--what--minute or two?

What's the point?

jak



"jakdedert" wrote in message
.. .

Woody wrote:
Google is your friend....

jak



Hello! Welcome to Earth. Can you please show us this device you speak
of??? An internet link perhaps?



"jakdedert" wrote in message
et...


Woody wrote:


Yep... seat belts can kill you too, under certain circumstance; but if
only one life is ever saved by this, isn't it worth it?

NOTHING is foolproof. One cannot prepare for every possibility, we
just try to prepare for as many as practical.

You are correct, in a 'trap' situation, spare air [as I said before]
is only a slim chance device. But shouldn't people be given EVERY
chance?

[Walk into a black-damp and you'll wish you had one of these for your
retreat..]

I just didn't want to get into the debate that co2 scrubbing would be
more helpful than air/O2 in a 'trap' situation...
rb


They already carry a device which will allow them an hour of air. How
many things do you think they can lug around and still do their jobs?

jak
snip