"Dwight Stewart" wrote in message
news
"Kim W5TIT" wrote:

(snip) I am telling you that my experience has been
that people who are customarily born in this country
feel that the jobs we are speaking of are beneath them.
(snip) But, how dare you dismiss the experiences I have
seen.


Again, I'm not dismissing your experiences. Instead, I'm questioning the
conclusions you've made about those experiences. You say, based on your
experiences with other people, nobody in this country other than
immigrants
is willing to do those jobs? How many of those non-immigrant people did
you
ask if they would take those jobs if the wages were better?


Have you ever heard the phrase, "I wouldn't do that no matter how much they
paid me?" I haven't had to ask, Dwight. I am speaking of people that I
have personally been involved with either at casual get-togethers, work,
civic organizational meetings, or friends' socials.


I suspect just
about all of them would at least consider, and many would gladly take,
those
jobs under different wage conditions. If I'm right, your conclusions are
flat wrong - non-immigrants are willing to do those jobs.


I would not make such adamant comments based on supposition alone, Dwight.
And, I've tried to relay to you that I am referencing true/real-life
experiences--not just making casual observation.


And, if you are
wrong, to continue to perpetrate a myth that non-immigrants are either too
lazy or too uppish to do that work is simply insulting.


Welp, sorry. Then be insulted.


And, how dare you again, Dwight. (snip) How dare you
imply that I "don't care" about bad policies in this country.
Have I once said I don't care? (snip)

Lay off the false outrage, Kim. Nobody said you didn't care. I said "few
seem to care," not "Kim doesn't care." If you apply those words to
yourself,
you do so in your own mind. If others want to apply those words to you,
they'll do so after reading what you've said.


Then, you lay off the analogy of my being wrong and not caring, Dwight.
You'd be as affected if I responded to a post by you saying that, "seems
like everyone is on the _______ bandwagon." You would--and rightly so--make
the connection that I was including you as one of those "everyones." Also,
it is not false outrage--once again you dismiss someone else's attitude.


(snip) and I've just told you I am basing that on experience. Go
to the Unemployment lines. I haven't--but I *BET* the majority
of people in those lines are not looking for work on farms, at
Wal-Mart, with municipalities, landscape companies, construction
firms, asbestos abatement firms, chemical and biological hazard
waste firms, and our ever-famous convenience stores such as
7-Eleven--all of which need people constantly.

Your experiences are clearly somewhat limited.


You know what, Dwight? You're right. And, you know what else? I have
*told* you that I don't know how many times now. I have clearly, clearly
told you from whence I am basing my opinons. DUH!!!!!!!!!! And, you what
else? SO ARE YOURS.


Walmart doesn't hire
through state or outside employment agencies. Potential employees apply at
the individual stores and there are rarely shortages of applicants.


The phucking point is, Dwight, that people of whom you and I are
speaking--those that say they cannot find work, are not "looking" (i.e.,
going to take, consider, or toy with) the idea of employment at places like
Wal-Mart, etc.


Municipalities tend to pay fairly well (with good benefits), hence rarely
have a shortage of applicants (skilled applicants is another matter).


They have high turn-around, Dwight. Why? Because the work the ask folks to
do is generally considered to be far more work than many are willing to
do--even including police and fire work. And, even with the high
turnaround--again--the people of generally US-born heritage do not look for
or even consider work in those fields.


Landscape companies, to keep costs down, are perhaps the largest employers
of illegal immigrants. Construction companies only have problems finding
skilled applicants (laborers are plentiful). The same with most other
companies seeking skilled labor. Convenience store jobs are among the
lowest
paying, and most dangerous, in the country. In other words, none of these
tend to prove your point.


You are talking in circles, and ignoring good points I might add. My point
is this: REGARDLESS of the reasons you list above, the FACT still remains
that people who are in a non-immigrant class and generally US-born who you
say are displaced by immigrants filling the jobs, will *not* generally look
for or do the jobs listed above--and more. Whether you wish to believe that
or not--whatever. I've heard it expressed, I've known people who feel that
way, I've listened to it being discussed in public venues, and I've watched
my own Congress debate the problems associated with it.


(snip) All one need do is look around them to see where our
youth find important and meaningful employment: McDonald's
and other fast food joints, light dining restaurants, and that's
about it. (snip)

You've got to be kidding, Kim. You consider employment at fast food
joints, some of the lowest paying jobs in this country, to be "important
and
meaningful employment?"


For a phucking youth?????!!!!! Yes, I do, Dwight. The jobs filled at
places like that build the background it takes to be a half-way decent
employee as a young and professional adult.


(snip) Why did I break-out to light dining restaurants? Because
I don't see teen-agers in the "finer" dining restaraunts - and my
husband and I love to eat out so we have some experience.
Know why *I* think they (teen-agers) aren't there? Because
there, the customer service is higher scale, which demands more
personality, better etiquette, and of course--greater work ethic.

Or maybe the owners simply don't hire teenagers.


Give a dog a bone and he buries it.


Guess who we do see serving us in those restaurants?

Who, Kim? You've already said teenagers (immigrant and non-immigrant)
don't work in these restaurants. That leaves only adults. I suppose you're
now going to say immigrant adults have more personally, better etiquette,
and a greater work ethic, than non-immigrant adults in this country, which
is why immigrant adults, not non-immigrant adults, work in the restaurants
you go to.


Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. And, just for you and Jim I'll say
this: some.


My husband has been at his formerly family-owned business
for 27 years. His mom sold the company last year. For most
of those 27 years, until about 10 years ago, they had a great
crew of folks. Since then, the main focus of my husband's
every day work has been to get someone in there who wants
a job and will work. Know how many nieces nephews, and
his own kids and my son, he has had through those years?
Ten. Not one of them has ever, ever worked there. (snip)

Perhaps that says more about your husband than the nieces, nephews, and
kids. That's not intended as an insult. Instead, it's just to point out
that
few kids are willing to work for parents or immediate relatives - parents
and relatives tend to be more demanding and more judgmental than the
normal
employer.


Give a dog a bone and he buries it.

OK, then, Dwight. Explain why in those years not only have the
nieces/nephews and great-nieces/nephews not worked there--in a time of our
country that unemployment is at the high it is, he (my husband) is begging
for employees? And, it happens that he is *always* begging for employees.
And, guess who generally fills that need? Not the people you say are out
there willing to take the job.


If the factories are closing, then what jobs are the immigrants
moving in to take? (snip) I am still curious to know if factories
are closing, what jobs are available for anyone to take? (snip)

Didn't I pretty much answer that in the next paragraph of that message?
There are obviously more jobs in town than just factory jobs, Kim. The
elimination of those factory jobs simply adds to the competition for those
remaining jobs.


Welcome to the real world, Dwight.


Well, excuse me for the honesty--you'll call it having my
blinders on or not caring, maybe even because I am a
"liberal"--but, if one contract put this company out of
business, then perhaps the person should have gone on
to some form of vocational or higher level training in
business practices before they took such a jump. (snip)

It happened to be about a $450k per year contract, the loss of which his
company could not absorb.


My point still remains. And, I've also gotta say: give a dog a bone and he
buries it.


(snip) if we have no control over the employment
situation in this country--we don't whine about it. We
knuckle under, get the menial jobs, sell the big house,
get the little house, sell the SUV and get the Saturn,
and we begin the task of seeing what we can do--if
anything--to change the route of what we perceive as
being awful. (snip)

Kim, as voters and citizens, we're supposed to have control over the
employment situation in this country.

PAH!! Welcome to the real world, Dwight. And, "supposed to" and do is two
entirely different things. We still don't sit around and whine about it.
Like I said above--we do what we gotta do and then we *begin the task of
seeing what we can do--if anything--to change the route of what we perceive
as being awful.* Is there a part of that you did not understand?


We don't simply because too many
choose to "knuckle under" instead of demanding better. Of course, they
probably don't have that much of a choice as long as most people are
heartless enough to think the solution for those people is to sell
everything, take a menial job, and live in poverty.


I am one of those who have mostly knuckled under. I used to try to change
things. But, without change I've done pretty well. It's a sad commentary,
but I and many are too busy knuckling under to try to change a
thing--welcome to the reality of what's really going on.


Then, report the company to INS. REPORT THEM. If
the company is getting contracts based on their employment
of illegeal aliens, then I am sure the firms they are doing
services for will want to know this. For goodness sake,
REPORT their ass.

I've already filed complaints. Sadly, it just doesn't work that way,
Kim.
When it comes to businesses hiring illegal immigrants, government agencies
only take on a few, high profile, cases each year (such as Walmart
recently). Because of that, you could complain until you're blue in the
face
and absolutely nothing will come of it. I truly wish it were different,
but
that's simply the way it is (which is exactly why so many companies are
now
willing to hire illegal immigrants).

Dwight Stewart (W5NET)

http://www.qsl.net/w5net/



Then figure out a way to be satisfied. Because you are absolutely right.
The one thing you and I differ on is that I do *not* believe the
immigrant/migrant/transient population in this country are displacing as
many as you believe. I believe they are doing jobs that--no matter how bad
it gets--"we" have been too spoiled to consider doing ourselves.

Kim W5TIT