On 29 Dec 2003 04:36:31 GMT, Alun wrote:

Dave Head wrote in
:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:52:34 GMT, "Phil Kane"
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 13:18:03 GMT, Dave Head wrote:

Engineers are workers. They should probably have a division in the
UAW, 'cuz sure as you're born, if you're a worker (employee), you're
going to get abused.

There have been engineer's unions for at least the last 50 years in
the aircradt industry. Having worked one year as an engineer for an
airplane company at the beginning of my career, I can see why. Real
professionals look down on unionizing.

Real professional actors, football players, baseball players, etc.
don't seem to look down on unionization.

My guess is that the airplane engineers get screwed less, and have more
secure jobs, save the periodic downturns in the aircraft industry
itself.

Those doing the abusing are the guys with the MBAs.

Read it not as ab-using, but as con-fusing.

Lawyers hang out a shingle and charge what the traffic will bear.
They don't have someone else setting their pay rates, nor screwing
around with their health insurance, making them sign away their rights
to anything they might be able to think up and patent, etc.

HAH! Talk to any associate at any decent-sized law firm and get an
education otherwise.

I bet, but then there's that "organization" thing. Work for an
organization (be an employee) and... you need a union.

As for going solo - did it, been there, got the T-shirt, and I
wouldn't do it again. I love to do law - I hate to run a business.

I'd hate it too, I think.

You mostly can't export what an MBA does,

Give it time, my man - they used to say the same thing about
engineers.

MBA's are performing a service where they have to be present. They're
not going to offshore the pizza delivery guy, either - he has to be
here to do the work, too. Of course, entire corporate headquarters
have moved off-shore I guess, so apparently it is possible.

nor can cheap foreign labor be imported to do it. Ditto for the law
practicioners.

Wanna bet? The top two guys in my law school class were from India,
and that was many years ago. One is also an MBA and CPA and runs
his family's extensive business interests in the 'States, and the
other is one of the top immigration lawyers in California.

I suppose if they are educated here... sure. But growing up in India,
Russia, Korea, and learning Indian, Russian, or Korean law won't do you
any good in the USA. The problem with engineering and IT is that the
laws of physics, and the principles of good software design and
construction, are universal. What works in India, Russia, and Korea
works here, and vice-versa.

It's easy to make such generalities.

The generality that holds is: If you are an employee, you need a union.
I think exceptions are pretty rare. Again, the number of people, 30
million, in poverty-level wage jobs (= $8.25 / hr) pretty much says
that this is right. All those people would likely do much better with a
union.

I'm a government engineer. I work for the Navy. Don't need a union,
right? Wrong! In the 1980's, the OPM illegally capped the across the
board raises of engineers on the advanced engineering pay scale. Who
should step up to the plate but the Treasury Employee's Union, and sued
the socks off the government for 2 decades. Finally won the case last
year. Last week I got a check as partial payment for compensation for
that misdeed - $1090.95. Unions don't have to strike to get results,
even if the results come later. Maybe the OPM will realize eventually
that even tho they're the government, they're not omnipotent, and have
to play by the rules, like everyone else. Anyway, I'm better off
because of a union.

Without a resurgence of union power, I think this country is headed for
a third-world model society, where there are the very rich, and the
very poor, and nobody in between. The people slinging code and
designing/building bridges won't be on the "very rich" side, either.
They'll be the ones that are willing to work for $8.00 / hr,
side-by-side with the Indians, Mexicans, Russians, etc. that will be
quite happy with that amount. Its a matter of how far in the future
that is... I guess about 50 years. What's your guess?

Dave Head


Actually, you know India is a common law country, so Indian law would be
very similar to US law, and Indian lawyers all speak English too. Being
licenced to practice is quite another thing altogether, but I could see
paying someone in Delhi to draw up a contract, etc. Of course the case law
would be different, but they can access Lexis/Nexis and WestLaw from there
too, so legal research is no problem.


Really depressing idea there, Alun. Maybe the pizza delivery guy _is_ the only
one that is safe...

Dave Head