RadioBanter - View Single Post

February 8th 04, 06:49 PM

In article , (Mr.
Inexhaustible who does not meet exhaust emission standards N2EY) writes:

In article , Leo

writes:

On 6 Feb 2004 15:18:39 -0800, (N2EY) wrote:

Leo wrote in message
...
On 06 Feb 2004 14:54:40 GMT, (N2EY) wrote:

In article , Leo

writes:

in Canada, as we grant full Amateur license privileges upon
request to persons with appropriate Professional license
qualifications.

snip

And, if you make a few mistakes along the way, or if it takes a week
to get it running, so what?

Depends on the mistake.

Well, other than operating out of band, there ain't much that a
"sorry" wouldn't cover!

So when somebody decides to run ten or twenty times the legal power,
a "sorry" is supposed to cover it? Or when somebody uses ham radio
for commercial purposes, or music, etc.. a "sorry" is supposed to cover it?

Sorry, that's not good enough.

Are you considering capital punishment as the only cure for not
zealously following the standards and practices of the 1930s as
the league constantly reminds you?

Perhaps you wish excommunication from talking about a hobby
concerning communication?

What are you hinting at, mighty warrior of purity against [expletive
deleteds] ?

You're experimenting, and that's what
amateur radio is all about.

Then why have any ham radio tests or licenses at all? You're arguing
for the end of all testing for a ham license, Leo.

Not at all -

Yes, you are. If a "sorry" can cover most violations, there's no need for
most of the tests.

...except the morse code test MUST be there, forever and ever. :-)

I'm suggesting that (many of) the radio skills acquired
in the acquisition of a commercial license are directly applicable to
the Amateur service. Transferrable skills.

Maybe. But most of what a ham needs to know is not covered by a
commercial license test.

No problem. The amateur tests don't require any rules and regs
required by commercial broadcasters. Isn't that even enough?

Now, make a couple of mistakes and knock WNEP-TV off the air for a
couple of minutes - you might be an unemployed professional!

Which acts as an incentive to know what you're doing.

Yup!

Does WNEP-TV change frequency, or have to listen first before
transmitting?

That is a pretty simple skill - I'm sure the broadcast engineers could
figure it out rather quickly

I don't think so. They're used to doing all the talking and none of the
listening.

Commercial broadcasters are required by LAW and the terms of
their license to STAY on their allocated frequencies.

Commercial carrier services on HF are usually allocated several
frequencies to use on HF. A QSY is NOT any technical hurdle
requiring years of experience to learn, to take tests for, or any
of that nonsense. Did that a half century ago. No problem.

and the Pros have made a career of it

All that means is that they get paid. There are some ladies and
gentlemen
on the streets of most major cities who make a "profession" out of
something
most people do as amateurs. (Some say it's the oldest profession).

Politicians?

Some say politicians are a subset of the oldest profession. ;-)

Fully agreed!

So we should listen to those professionals?

If you don't want to listen to law-making, law-enforcing professionals,
you are free to listen to Bubba 24/7 in your cell. No problem.

Your choice.

Those people must be qualified to give advice on the subject of their
profession,
don't you think? ;-) We should revere what they say and do, and not
question their knowledge and opinions on the subject, right? ;-) ;-)
They
must be better at it than us unpaid amateurs because they get paid to
do it, right? ;-) ;-) ;-)

I'll take your word for it, having no personal experience with the
profession that you are referring to. If you say they're good, Jim,
then they're good!

I wouldn't know - I'm only an amateur in that field too.

Generally speaking, though, professionals are more knowledgable than
lay people because they are involved in their field full time, and are
held to standards of conduct and proficiency set by not only the
regulators but by their employers.

Generally speaking. However, commercial radio and amateur radio are
different fields. Being a "professional in radio", by itself, is no
indication of qualification to operate an amateur radio station, and
even less of an
indication of qualification to determine amateur radio policy.

Two different concepts.

That's right. Amateur radio and commercial radio are two different concepts.

Right...and in your world, the amateur physics are different along
with the hardware. Yawn...

Being a licensed professional in radio implies a knowledge of radio
theory and concepts - many of which are tranferrable from one area
(commercial) to another (amateur).

Some. Not many.

Of course you KNOW that by experience in commercial HF
communications.

Right.

By nature, amateur activities have
much greater margins for error than professional ones - they are hobby
based, after all!

Then why have licenses at all?

Good question.

Without a license to brag about, there would be fewer hams and a
lot more space to play radio in on HF. Sounds like a good thing.

The sandbox would be more open and free for all the seven year
old extras to play in...

Amateur radio policy, on the other hand, is made by legislators, none
of whom require any knowledge of radio to carry out the
responsibilities of their office.

They need to understand certain concepts of radio in order to do the job.
Doesn't mean they all do.

Impossible. The glory and majesty of amateur radio cannot possibly
be understood by filthy immoral professionals! Shame on them!

Why, [expletive deleted] and let them [expletive deleted] !

And, rather than just sounding like
experts, they are expected to demonstrate their proficiency - that's
what they get paid for! 'Stay current or move out' is the rule of the
technically-oriented workplace.

Current with what? Most TV stations are still broadcasting NTSC
signals, based
on a mode that's at least 50 years old. If you don't care about color,
a 1946
NTSC TV (if you can find one that works) is still usable. Then there's
FM
broadcasting which is about as old and good old MW AM, which goes back
to the
1920s.

With equipment that is vastly more complex than what the average
amateur is using, though.

So what? They don;t have to buy it with their own money, nor take
care of it with their own money in their spare time. Amateurs do.
Makes all the difference in the world.

Right! Amateurs are the most noble, god-fearing, honest folks in
the world, to a man upholders of social morals, the ten
commandments, and all give tithes more than ten percent!

Filthy evil money-grubbing professionals don't have families or bills
or loved ones or any expenses. They probalby drink, smoke, and
cuss, showing indecency at football games and everything!

You ought to work at league headquarters where they built all
their home-designed rigs just like you did.

If you get the opportunity, have a look
inside a cellular base station sometime - all of the equipment in
there is computer controlled

Which means no licensed operators are needed at all.

Blasphemy! Say not those evil words!

All must be licensed, tested, analyzed for proper moral virtue, and
be subject to hellfire and brimstone if they so much as hint at any
unlicenseness!

Elimination of operators has been a major goal of commercial and
military radio services for years. One less warm body to pay. Just
like the railroads eliminated most block operators years ago, and the
telephone company went to dial equipment, and the airlines went to
planes that can be flown by two, not three.

Haven't you realized it? It's all a vast conspiracy against morse code!

The only ones who use it are the amateurs (glory be their name,
hosannahs in the highest for those virtuous, noble, standard-bearing
leaders of the state of the art in all radio).

Oh, and the U.S. Army Signal Corps is the third most populous
branch in the Army despite no use of morse code for any military
communications. A larger percentage now than in WW2 when
morse code was still used by the military.

American railroads have more radios (none of them morse mode) now
than ever before, are required to channelize very close together in
order to fit within the allocations. NTIA has the facts and figures.
For wired communications they have high-speed data and some use
encrypted modes for security.

American airline companies have shown the rest of the world how to
run profit-making air carriers, both passenger and cargo. They have
NO need for morse modes over civil land air routes, have never had any
internationally since 1955 and abandoned HF morse CW for SSB and
data modes long ago out of practicality of USE, not for warm body
elimination in aircrew. Upon inspection of professional air carriers,
where the once carried an "extra" aircrew for morse comms, they
STILL carry "extra" aircrew in the same number for other flight duties.

As to practicality in use, which would you think a business would
want for written communications: A "high speed" pair of morse
men capable of 40 WPM or a data/teleprinter circuit useable by anyone
who can read and write running a over a hundred times faster?

If public safety is such a concern at sea, why did SOLAS and the
maritime community devise, adopt GMDSS instead of manual
morsemen "sparkies" doing code on 500 KHz? GMDSS can be
operated by any trained, certified ship's crew, not a specialist in
morse.

- nothing even resembling a piece of
radio gear to be seen.

Only if you don't know what it looks like ;-)

None of it looks like a K2 or an Orion.

Cell sites operate at the 1 GHz band and higher. "Real hams" don't
go near microwaves. "Gigahertz for gigasquirts" - KH2D

The signal out, though, is Hertzian, and as old as the universe....

If it's as old as the universe, it existed before Hertz.

It isn't "real radio" if above 30 MHz. - CW (Conventional Wisdom) of the
olde-tyme mighty macho morsemen.

snip

Sure, but according to IC, that isn't a concern!

IC is just wrong.

Tsk, tsk, next thing you will be accusing Industry Canada of having
Weapons of Mass Destruction!

And are professional licensees allowed to build their own transmitters
and put
them
on the air without any certification?

Nope - this is what the Amateur bands are for (type approval not
required, unlike the commercial frequencies).

Then the "pros" aren't necessarily qualified in that area, either.

In fact, there are precious few Amateurs left who could do that, Jim,
even though our bands permit it.

I can, and have.

I know - but they just ain't making them like you anymore!

Yes, they are. There are plenty of hams like me around, building,
operating, using Morse code....That sort of thing really bothers
some people.

Only when they want to force their Lifestyle on everyone else.

They won't let things be. They must Convert the heathen NCTAs.

They get all hot and bothered when everyone else doesn't worship
and adore the things they do (obviously superior things according
to them).

Canada may be different. But I don't live there.

Same, actually. 100 questions, 60 correct gets you a basic license.

60% passing? At least here it's ~74%.

Yah, here we go with the Territorial Imperative nonsense again...

You seem to be arguing that such licenses aren't really needed
anymore.

No - I'm arguing that they are becoming meaningless - simple memory
work that a child can do.

If they're meaningless they aren't needed.

Right...SEVEN YEAR OLD EXTRAS IN THE USA.

Wow, certified, stamped, authorized, qualified infantile behavior, legal
to run 1+ KW transmitters without parental supervision!

Has the licensing of young children caused any problems for the ARS?
Are they making a mess of the bands?

The mentally-seven-year-olds seem to be doing just fine. Every
so often they appear in the "Riley notices."

btw, Canada used to have an age requirement of 15 for any class of
amateur license. Would you have them put that requirement back?

The USA never had an age requirement for a ham license, but at
least one frequent poster here petitioned the FCC to add an age requirement
of 14 years. Fortunately the FCC did not do so.

Right. FREEDOM for seven-year-old Extras!

You show them!

Too easy, I'd say,

The FCC disagrees.

Unfortunately.

They're PROFESSIONALS, Leo! They have to "keep current or move out",
right?
It's their JOB to know what's needed, right? Who are we poor dumb old
broken
down amateurs to question them? ;-)

They are regulators and politicians, actually....

They're still PROFESSIONALS IN RADIO. Who are you or I to question them? ;-)

I thought SEVEN-YEAR-OLD EXTRAS ranking any radio professional
as cute. You apparently support that in all things?

Must not question the professionals. Their egos can't take it.

Well, I'm sure that if you asked a holder of a first class radio
license who has worked in the field for years a radio theory question,
they'd probably get it right!

I've seen them get it wrong. Some don't even know what firmware is.

Right. You tell them mighty professional...you don't what "firmware"
really is! (downloadable software from Ten-Tec).

How often does the average employee at WNEP have to demonstrate
knowledge
of calculation of squares, logs and complex numbers?

The receptionist - never. The hands-on technical people - rarely -
but they would need it to complete their formal education in radio
theory, I'd reckon.

Is formal education necessary for the license?

Are you going to brush the ivy leaves from your BS again? :-)

You didn't get your mighty morse Extra with a BS and MS, did
you? :-)

Rote memorization was what my point was about, though - and I'm sure
that was the case.

How do you know for sure?

I don't - but I'd say the odds are pretty heavily in my favour.

They are - but you wrote as if there were no other possibility.

My, my, Leo writes an indefenite and TAFKA Rv. Jim says its
an absolute! Gotta love the double-degreed word misunderstanding.

Ever talk to a 7-year old kid, Jim?

At least daily.

Listen often too?

At least daily.

Keep those SEVEN-YEAR-OLD EXTRA CLASS skills honed sharp!

Much of what's on the test (band edges, regs) is pure memory stuff.

Thought the Extra was more theoretical than regulation based?

None of them are heavy on theory. Not anymore.

Sigh...maybe "Now You're Talking" will be replaced by Mother Goose?

But you're not 7!

I'm not 13 either.

Right. You are 49 going on 94.

Seven year old Extras now have ALL the rights your Extra license has.

There's no legal requirement for parental supervision when they run
1+ KW transmitters.

And there is *no* requirement that *any* ham understand complex
numbers.

There is, if he really wants to figure out why his 50 ohm antenna has
an SWR of 2.6 to 1......

Not at all.

And why would a 50 ohm antenna have such a high SWR if it's 50 ohms?

Right. All Seven-year-old Extras KNOW that stuff!

Wrong is wrong. But the IC are professionals, aren't they?

Yep - professional regulators. Them who makes the rules!

PROFESSIONALS IN RADIO!!!

Nooooo. Professionals in LAW. Absolutely NO Commissioner or
staff member of the FCC is required to possess ANY radio operator
license. Read Parts 0 and 1 of Title 47 C.F.R.

You ought to research Industry Canada's organization and charter
some more before tossing sand from your sandbox at them. If you
don't know our FCC then how can you "critique" Industry Canada?
You don't even live in Canada.

Personally I'd think, for example, that the guy who sits in a control
tower accurately vectoring planes all over our busy airspace is far
better equipped to carry on a two-way conversation on 2-meters than
the average amateur who passed a relatively simple test!

Maybe. But there's no requirement that he have any sort of radio
operator's license. He doesn't need to know how the radios work.
Complex numbers?

They aren'r required - you just told me that....

Exactly. Nor band edges, or power limits, etc.

Tested morse code ability MUST be there for HF. Always. It
transcends any theory of radio.

No. I'm too busy looking at rigs and parts.

Look up - he's there, along with the guys who look like the local
homeless shelter burnt down!

Gee, you sure have a high opinion of your fellow hams.

How about those "fellow" seven year olds?

For the USA to make the
same mistake would be a very bad thing, unless the GROL tests were
changed.
Even then it would be questionable, because it would probably be
possible

for someone to pass the Commercial exam but get all the
amateur-radio-related
questions wrong. Such a person is simply not qualified to operate an
amateur
radio station.

...unless they can find a 7-year old to elmer them, that is. That is
some prettty tough material to master! LOL!

Would you talk that way to a 7 year old, Leo?

Why not?

How much time *do* you spend with children?

That's important now that SEVEN YEAR OLDS can be EXTRAS!

LHA / WMD