"Bill Sohl" wrote in message hlink.net...
"Dave Heil" wrote in message
...


Bill Sohl wrote:

"Dave Heil" wrote in message
(SNIP)
The regs state that someone who wishes to use those particular hunks
of
RF real estate will pass those exams. If someone hasn't passed the
exam, he or she has not met the qualifications for occupying
particular
band segments.

If the FCC goes with the ARRL proposal, then there will be a "one-time"
waiver of certain tests to accomodate the upgrades

No kidding?

...which then means
that those new upgraded Extras or Generals do, indeed,
constitute fully qualified hams for those license
classes.

Yeah, I know that. I'm trying to keep that part of the ARRL proposal
from taking place.

Go for it then. But if you fail in your effort, those that will
be "free" upgraded are qualified because they will have been
upgradedaccording to FCC rules at the time.

(SNIP)
...as the ONLY arbiter of the outcome that
matters is what the FCC will think and do.

We have some evidence of what the FCC has thought in the current
regulations.

Somehow I suspect the ARRL BOD does also...but I suspect it
isn't in sync with what you think.

That should have become obvious to you a little earlier.

It has never been unclear to me.

(SNIP)
I'd strongly suggest the greater danger to personal or others
life/limb is equally shared by Tech thru Extra as it relates to
permitted VHF/UHF operating at the legal limit.

How many beginners do you know who run the legal limit
on VHF/UHF. I'm betting that the answer is "none".

Doesn't matter. They can if they want. Also, what
makes you assume ALL technicians are beginners?

The assumption is yours. I wrote nothing about all
Technicians bbeing beginners.

Nor did I suggest that "all" Techs are beginners....

Did you think I wrote anything about such a thing?

YOU said: "Also, what makes you (me) assume ALL
technicians are beginners?" I made no such assumption,
nor did I suggest it in what I wrote previously.

but it is still a fact that all technicians, both beginners and "old
hands"
are allowed 1500 watts.

Yep. No one seems to have had a problem with that in the past.
Beginners aren't likely to run 1500 watts on 2m or 6m and
"old hands" are more likely to know what they're doing.

You still ignore thefact that beginners CAN run 1500 watts.

If you support them, then by definition you are supoorting a
reduction
in the written test requirements for those licenses.

Incomplete statement. Supporting a one-time upgrade doesn't
mean anyone supports "permanent" reductions of the written
requirements. THAT is the critical difference.

Give me a break, Bill!

Are the people getting the "one time upgrade" qualified?

Tell me why they would be unqualified? Unqualified as to doing
what?

They will not have met the qualifications for holding the higher
class
license. No ifs, ands or buts.

Yet you can't offer one operating skill or privilege that would
be covered by such lack of having passed the requisit test.

That isn't the point at all. If such is your belief, there is nothing
to prevent doing away entirely with all but one license class and
making
the exams much easier. You claimed that you didn't support watering
down the tests. Here you're making a case for dumbing down the whole
shebang.

Believe what you wish. I support the "one-time" upgrades.
If that makes you think I support permanent "dumbing down"
then you have a lapse of logic somewhere.

On the contrary. If such material is not needed by thousands and
thousands on a one-time basis, why would it need to be tested at all,
ever?

You still ignore the reality of non-relationship of
privileges vs license class. The ONLY logic behind
the current system is Incentive Licensing.

(SNIP)
In doing so, I acknowledge that there will be, if implemented
as submitted, a ONE_TIME reduction of test requirements
for those hams that get free upgrades. I also recognize and
understand that other than the one-time upgrades, there
will be NO reduction in written test requirements for Extra
and General.

Clear enough for you?

I've never had any trouble understanding your view. You seem to not
be
able to see where such a position can lead. If the material isn't
deemed necessary for an upgrade on a one-time basis, it is difficult
to
justify it as being necessary any time.

Yawn. That's for the FCC to decide and, I suspect the FCC
can live with a one-time upgrade without believeing it
jeopardizes all future requirements.

Burp. I suspect that not many FCC staffers care one way or the other.
The FCC has long abdicated its responsibilities in enforcement, planning
and testing.

Please do comment to that effect in your FCC filing when
you do so.

Governments often waive
criminal and monetary fines by waiving them and offering
special "tax amnesty" periods. After the "amnesty period" is over,
if you are found guilty of eevading the taxes, you think the
courts accept an argument that if the fines were waived once
they should be permanently waived?

A freebie amateur radio licensing waiver is not a criminal matter nor is
it a fine.

So how come many states have raised driver's license
ages for teenagers and not had any problems. If a
16 year old was qualified to drive a few years ago, why
can't they now? The point is that requirements can and
do change for various things.

What is under discussion is amateur radio licensing and
whether the testing for certain classes of license are truly necessary
if they can be waived for thousands and thousands of people.

Testing for US hams has changed many times. When
Generals LOST privileges in 1968, no one raised a legal
argument that if a General was qualified in 1965 to
operate on all allowed Amateur spectrum, that the
same General should be legally qualified to do so after
Incentive licensing.

And since it affects over 400,000 hams, it's not a small
matter.

If it goes through it will be forgotten in a couple of
years.
Why,
because
no one losses any privileges.

Are they qualified?

Broken record here it seems.

The question keeps coming up because straight answers have not
been
forthcoming.

The question keeps coming up because some people can't
understand the difference between a ONE-TIME waiver as
opposed to a PERMANENT change in requirements.

I haven't seen any evidence that there are people unable to tell the
difference. I see evidence that your position could lead to some
unintended consequences.

And I don't. There's plenty of "waivered" situations in government
as already noted.

You've written of quite disparate scenarios, having nothing to do with
the topic of discussion.

There are many analogies: Raised the drinking age, raised
the smoking age, driver's license age, waiving tax penalties,
waiving of illegal alien penalties. Not one situation has been
rolled back to the "waived" condition after reinstatement
of the waived requirements, laws or regulations. Legally,
it isn't an issue.

So you do stand in support of reduced testing requirements and of
the
elimination of incentive licensing.

I do NOT support a permanant reduction of written requirements.
I support a limited incentive system but I wish the additional
privileges bore some relationship to the additional knowledge being
tested for.

Nice waffle.

No waffle at all.

I don't agree.

I don't care.

THAT is my specific position and I do wish that
licensing privileges did have a relationship to the additional knowledge
being tested for.

But, Bill, that is for the FCC to decide and they are the final arbiter
;-)

Absolutely correct. It is, in the end, the FCC's decision.
Nothing I have said, nothing I wish, makes it any different.
I can and will add my voice to those that comment to the
FCC as to my preferences.

(SNIP)
Clearly the ARRL BOD doesn't
accept your argument.

The League's board isn't required to accept it, nor have I noted any
opposition. I can make my views to clear to my Director and to those
other Directors and Vice-Directors I know. I've already made my view
known to Dave Sumner.

Seems to me I'm in good company then.

Not necessarily.

You are entitled to your opinion.


(SNIP)

Believe whatever makes you feel good.

Is that how you decide what to believe?

Depends on the decision to be made and the circumstances.

"If it feels good, do it".

Depends on the decision. If it is a nice day and I have a decision
to make regarding Mow the Lawn or Take a drive in my antique car
with the top down...well I've taken the "feel good" decision on
that choice many times. Haven't you made similar decisions?
Wake up, decide it is a nice day and call your boss to tell him or
her you're taking a vaction day?

Izzat what we've had under discussion, taking a drive in an antique car
'cuz it's a nice day? How about calling your boss and telling him
you're taking a couple of days to mull over the ARRL's proposal for
revamping amateur radio testing?

I could do that.

and no one will notice that suddenly the requirements will go
up.

The requirements won't go up...they will stay the same. The
only
thing happening here (if FCC approves) is the written test will
be waiver one time for the particular ham going from Tech to
General
or Advanced to Extra.

You mean, those hams who will not have passed the exam to go from
Tech
to General or Advanced to Extra. You mean a "gimme" for tens of
thousands.
Tell us again the motivation for such a thing. What makes it
necessary
to do.

Read the ARRL petition. ARRL makes the case and I agree with their
logic. No need to repeat it again.

Yeah, it is kind of embarrassing. I can understand why you wouldn't
want it repeated.

Repeat it all you want.

You told me that there was no need to repeat it.

I said I wasn't going to repeat it. You can do it all
you want.

I've neither the time nor inclination to
cut and paste it in here just to make you happy.

As long as you support freebie upgrades, you aren't going to make me
happy.

Then prepare to be unhappy for now.

Cheers,
Bill K2UNK

I'm trying to recall any happy moment that that Dave has shared with us on rrap.