Subject: Ham-radio is a hobby not a service
From: (Len Over 21)
Date: 3/23/2004 9:47 PM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

In article ,
(Steve
Robeson K4CAP) writes:

In article , JJ

writes:

Sure they do, but in the case of a 9/11 emergency they would be hard
pressed to use them. Cell phone are great during the planning, but when
the real emergency comes, they become useless for emergency comms.

Not always true.

You want to select the 11 September 2001 Attack on America as
a typical emergency but that was a very UNtypical emergency
that no one could foresee or plan for. In the "9/11" incident ALL
methods of communications were strained.

A point we can agree on.

That isn't up for any discussion.

OW!...Lennie can't stand being agreed with!

THAT had to hurt!

There are NO verifiable stories about amateur radio doing anything
to aid anyone in the first few hours of the Attack in New York City
on 11 Sep 01. Conversely, even though the NYC Emergency
Center was almost destroyed in that Attack, police and fire
department personnel were in constant communications before and
immediately after the Attack in and around the World Trade Center.
Add to that the medical people, NYC officials, and various utilities
and other businesses who got into immediate action. All of that is
quite well documented in many and various media outside of
hobby groups.

Now THAT we CAN'T.

There have already been a half dozen recriminating "inquests" as to why
various communications failures occured with FDNY, NYPD, PAPF, EMS and othr
agencies.

Exactly who was "recriminated?" There were investigations, yes, but
"inquests" also?

Too bad you don't subscribe to any EMS/Rescue journals, Lennie...Ya might
learn something about radio other than what you spew about in here.....It's a
bitter subject within Fire/EMS circles right now.

Recrimination is the act answering an accuser by accusing them
in return. That is what you do to others in here. Who and where
were the agencies doing this "recrimination?"

New York. NYPD. The Port Authority. FDNY. NYOES.

An inquest is specifically a judicial inquiry, as before a jury. Which
agency appeared at any inquest and at what time? What was the
ruling?

THAT has been reported in "USA Today" and other nationwide media
sources.

I don't read USA Today, only the Los Angeles and New York Times,
Time magazine, Newsweek, and sometimes the Wall Street
Journal and Variety. I don't recall the "inquests" or "recriminations"
you allege. Please supply details on specifics.

Perhaps you should read some Amateur publications. Even THEY have made
reference to some of the "boards" that have been called.

And almost every plan from the Department of Defense on down to "Podunk
Hollow USA" have some provision for including (or at least considering)
implementing Amateur Radio as a recourse.

As a secondary, not a primary use.

Lennie...

Only YOU and Brain keep trying to insinuate that Amateur Radio would be
"primary" communicaitons source.

And PLEASE note MY comment where I SPECIICALLY STATED "...implementing
Amateur Radio as a recourse"...Or do I need to define "recourse" for you?

The Auxilliary Communications Service of the state of California
accepts volunteers with or without amateur license and doesn't
even consider amateur radio as a primary fall-back medium for
large-scale emergencies.

You had better reassess using that "doesn't even consider amateur radio"
comment vis-a-vis ACS.

According to one of APCO's vice presidents (who happened to be at HR04),
ACS very thoroughly utilizes Amateur Radio and Amateur Radio operators.

Since he was part-and-parcel of the organization of ACS, I'd assume he
knows...

A case in point is the "other" "9/11" Attack on the Pentagon in
DC....(Snip to....)
After crash fire control and search and rescue was coordinated by on-
site military and civilian communications, not by amateur radio.

Lennie...why do you keep trying to make a point of this?

No one here has even remotely suggested that it was otherwise.

YOU have.

No, I've not. I've not made a single reference to the activities at the
Pentagon as it pertains to the events of Spetember 11th.

You will please cite the quote that you suggests that I did?

There are no viable
reports of amateur radio being used while that most definite
emergency situation was happening. (In reference to the 4th
hijacking...SR)

"SR?" That wasn't in my post. Why are you adding things?

I "added" a clarification that you were refering to the fourth hijacking.

I stated that clearly and added my initials as evidence that it was I, not
you that put that there.

If you are so feeble as to not be able to follow that without having to
requote the ENTIRE post, then I will, but it will just eat up bandwidth.

I don't think you are THAT idiotic, but if I need to do it to help keep
you focused, I'll be glad to do it in the future.

However Amateur Radio WAS employed in the post-incident recovery at the
site.

In WHAT NTSB "recovery?" The NTSB has its own investigators
and recovery procedures, such procedures limited to hired salvage
operators and military personnel.

Describe this "post-incident recovery" and tell us what the NTSB
has documented and where we might find all that for reference.

Try the press, Lennie.

Try the Pennsylvania Office of Emergency Services.

Try the Office of the Governor of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania who
issued a letter of appreciation to ARES for thier service at the site.

The "9/11" Attack is popular to espouse because of the enormous
emotional impact to all Americans. But, it was an ATTACK done
by other humans against all of us and definitely NOT some kind of
natural event emergency or disaster. The "kamikazi" nature of
this suicide attack was NOT anticipated by anyone and all were
in surprise and all had to work through the immediate aftermath
with whatever reseources were available.

Oh...so as long as the causal effect was "intentional", then we can
discount using Amateur Radio to receover from teh post incident effects,
Lennie...?!?!

No...because the amateur radio assistance was quite small
compared to the overall task of recovery, including the assistance
of other volunteer groups who aided the city of New York.

And you base this "small" quantification upon what reference? You having
not read about it in the LA Times?

The National Transportation and Safety Board does not "train
radio amateurs" to recover crash evidence. Try not to falsify your
exaggerations by spouting lies and assorted untruths.

The "mistruth" here, Lennie H is that you alledge that I suggested that
Amateurs "recover crash evidence."

You now have yet another lie to apologize for, Lennie.

And you can, in the same effort, cite where I allegedly said that Amateurs
were involved in "crash evidence" recovery.

Quick Lennie...an excuse...quick!

Steve, K4YZ