On Mon, 12 Jul 2004, Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:
Subject: WX Receivers and Repeaters retransmitting non-weather alerts.
From: "D. Stussy"
Date: 7/12/2004 1:47 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Steve Robeson K4CAP wrote:
Subject: WX Receivers and Repeaters retransmitting non-weather alerts.
From: "D. Stussy"
Date: 7/10/2004 3:18 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

On Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Phil Kane wrote:
On Thu, 08 Jul 2004 05:07:37 GMT, D. Stussy wrote:

If the content of the warning is to reach the greatest number of
people in the shortest period of time, even a "verbatim
retransmission" by an amateur station NOT using the NWS audio of
information heard from there could be an unjustified delay that costs
a life.

Comments?

Why not petition to change the rules to allow such retransmission?

Because I believe that [simultaneous and automatic] retransmission is
ALREADY
PROVIDED FOR in the existing rules and should not be considered a
violation.

The "simultaneous and automatic retransmission" you refer to is for
AMATEUR communications...

The FCC has repeatedly and unwaveringly stated that is it ILLEGAL for
Amateurs to rebroadcast non-Amateur traffic. Period.

Wrong. Look at the recent modification to .113 for WX stations. Also,
retransmission of NASA Shuttle communications has been in the rules for more
than a decade (granted, the initial retransmitter is supposed to get
permission
from NASA, but the fact that it is allowed in ANY FORM defeats your absolute
statement).

If all you are looking to do is "defeat( ) (my) absolute statement", then
congratulations.

However the NASA example is a specific waiver from the FCC, and NASA
hardly has hundreds of remote transmitters in every state to share the shuttle
traffic, now do they?

And if you bothered to look at the current .113, there is also a "waiver" for
retransmitting NOAA/NWS weather transmissions - with the limitation that it is
NOT done on a continuous basis (communications emergency or failure
notwithstanding for which the rules in .400 ff. take priority anyway).

There are NOAA receivers available for less than $20. Non-Amateurs
who
want to listen to it can do so without having to buy a $200+ Amateur device
and
modify it in order to do so. The NOAA channels are available options in
CB's,
FRS and Marine radios already.

Receivers less than $20.00 don't have SAME or special actions that they take
when hearing an EAS broadcast. You've missed the point here.....

No I haven't.

Neither my $150 2 meter rig nor my $350 V/UHF rig have SAME function in
them either. What would be the point of having those alert tones squawking on
2M or 70CM...?!?!

Because those alert tones are part of "EAS," while the normal weather status
transmission isn't. Emergency communications that may affect life or property
are always ALLOWED - and the concept of the FCC enacting the new EAS to replace
EAB was to have it reach as many [people] as possible as soon as possible.
Yet, we have the FCC's Mr. Cross now saying that this is forbidden. If so,
then I think he's insane - a rules violation is clearly less significant than
saving someone's life.

So...We bump the $20 up to $40...I can find at least a half dozen radios
in that price range that DO have SAME in them. So what then?

Personally, I'd rather keep the radio seperate so I could monitor NOAA
while keeping my 2M rig for 2-way purposes.

Well, no one said that YOU (or anyone else) HAD TO interface your local
repeater to a SAME-activated weatherradio. However, now that the rules do
permit it, why is there this "strange" interpretation of that rule?

The places where NOAA transmissions can NOT be heard are extremely
few. I
am sure there is some remote butte in Montanna or some valley in West
Virginia
that has poor or no coverage...But certainly not enough for the FCC to
reverese
it's policy...Espeically in light of NOAA's expenditures to spread the net.
In
my "neighborhood" alone I can hear transmissions on 3 of the seven channels
on
an HT...I can imagine what I might hear with a dedicated receiver and
appropriate antenna.

Those Amateurs who want to hear it are usually already involved in
SKYWARN
and already know the frequencies to tune to. They don't have to cling to a
local repeater hoping that someone else will "rebroadcast" NOAA audio.

Then explain why the rules were changed a couple of years ago to permit
it....

Explain to me where it's permitted 24/7, Dieter...

Explain to me where it's allowed to be AUTOMATICALLY retransmitted.

Follow along:

97.113(e) No station shall retransmit programs or signals emanating from any
type of radio station other than an amateur station, except propagation and
weather forecast information intended for use by the general public and
originated from United States Government stations and communications, including
incidental music, originating on United States Government frequencies between a
space shuttle and its associated Earth stations. Prior approval for shuttle
retransmissions must be obtained from the National Aeronautics and Space
Administration. Such retransmissions must be for the exclusive use of amateur
operators. Propagation, weather forecasts, and shuttle retransmissions may not
be conducted on a regular basis, but only occasionally, as an incident of
normal amateur radio communications.

Re-read that LAST LINE over and over, Dieter.

I have. That does not forbid automatic retransmission. It does forbid
scheduled, regular, and/or continuous retransmission. It permits occasional
retransmission. [Emergencies are also not "regular" in nature.]

As for automatic, the issue arose with regard to a device that would be
interfaced to an amateur repeater, and repeaters MAY BE AUTOMATICALLY
CONTROLLED, so that's where the "automatic" aspect comes in.

Propagation, weather forecasts, and shuttle retransmissions may not be
conducted on a regular basis, but only occasionally, as an incident of normal
amateur radio communications.

Propagation, weather forecasts, and shuttle retransmissions may not be
conducted on a regular basis, but only occasionally, as an incident of normal
amateur radio communications.

Propagation, weather forecasts, and shuttle retransmissions may not be
conducted on a regular basis, but only occasionally, as an incident of normal
amateur radio communications.

(Just thought I'd help you along a little bit.)

Allow me to make further emphasis of part of that regulation:

Such retransmissions must be for the exclusive use of amateur operators.

Such retransmissions must be for the exclusive use of amateur operators.

Such retransmissions must be for the exclusive use of amateur operators.

So what would be your point? There's no way you can make those
rebroadcasts and NOT be assured that the broadcast was NOT being used by
non-Amateurs.

Not any more so than under circumstances where no shuttle or weather
transmissions are occuring. Amateur frequencies are often included in
scanners - devices which don't require an FCC license to operate.

The only thing I gather from your statements is that you believe that ANY
retransmission of non-amateur communications is a rules violation. That also
is not what .113 says - it is permitting SOME types of non-amateur originated
communications to be [re]transmitted on an OCCASIONAL basis.

Lastly, for someone who keeps whining about another Amateur posting
Amateur Radio related news items in an Amateur Radio forum, I find it
really
funny that you want to play junior disc jockey on Amateur Radio with NON
Amateur weather broadcasts.

This topic is clearly about the rules and FCC policy (and its interpretation
fo
the rules). There are many things in AR Newsline that have nothing to do
with
the rules or operating practice and therefore don't belong here on ".policy"
(but may be appropriate to one of the other amateur radio newsgroups).

And I can pick almost any thread in any other of the other NG's and find
discussions going on there about topics OTHER than wha the charter for those
NG's may have "allowed".

How come I don't find Dieter Stussy in any of those NG's howling about the
inappropriateness of those posts...?!?!

1) I don't read every newsgroup.
2) Spam happens. You expect me to "explain the entire universe" to you?
3) There is quite alot of "****" posts that happen here.
4) What is the point of complaining about someone else's off-topic post if
nothing can or will be done about it? Here, there is someone to whom I can
complain about to get it stopped.
5) For the most part, people RESPECT the purpose of the group and usually stay
on topic. Amateur radio seems to attract anarchists by its nature - and it is
clear what we have here is anarchy.

Lastly, I didn't imply that this wasn't about the rules...It certainly
is...I just said I find it ironic that you want to play junior disc jockey with
NOAA weather broadcasts.

WHERE in LA County can you go and NOT hear an NOAA broadcast, Dieter?

If their transmitters fail, ANYWHERE! :-)

Remember that Mr. Cross's comment was the same when the issue of a
communications emergency was brought up. However, is your question even
relevant? It doesn't matter that I can hear up to 5 NWS transmitters where I
may be. The issue was with regard to the retransmission rule. To retransmit,
it first must be heard (obviously).

I've been in Mojave, up to Bishop and down in Imperial County and was
never out of earshot of an NOAA weather station...and THAT was in the late 80's
and early 90's. I used to sit in the Marine Expeditionary Airfield shelters
with my HT and copy NOAA.

And having BEEN in SoCal, I am intimately aware at how congested most of
the 2meter band is...All we need is for Uncle Same to "green light" the
rebroadcasts you suggest to have a whole band full of junior weathermen...What
next? Health reports on Ashley and Mary-Kate?

The Olsen Twins are not in the rules. NWS weather transmissions are. I leave
it to you to get the rules amended to add them if that's what you really want.