RadioBanter - View Single Post

October 8th 04, 11:16 PM

In article , PAMNO
(N2EY) writes:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:
In article ,

(Len Over 21) writes:

It seems to me that the only thing which would please Len would be for us
to
change to NCTA opinions and respond to Steve the same way he does. In
other
words, it's OK to behave like Len if and only if you agree with all of
his
opinions.

PCTA extra Double Standard: It's okay to treat NCTAs like dirt,
smutz, river bottom slime, etc., because the PCTA think they
deserve it.

Have I ever "treat[ed] NCTAs like dirt, smutz, river bottom slime, etc."?

If so, how?

Not on my watch you haven't.

Thanks, Mike.

You guys need new watches. :-)

Perhaps Len just wants all opposing opinions squelched.

No "perhaps," "sweetums" (a Kellie-ism).

In other words: "Yes, Len wants all opposing opinions squelched."

Several in here have stated publicly, "be quiet and take the damn
test!" That's rather close to being told "shut up" to ordinary folk.

Who wrote that to you, Len? When did they do it?

Did Dave Heil, K8MN, ever write that to you?

Len seems to think that if one person tells him to "shut up", it somehow
justifies him telling someone else to "shut up".

That's faulty logic on Len's part.

PCTA extra Double Standard does not recognize such things as
nasty.

I think it's nasty for anyone to tell another to shut up online. I've
never
done that. You have, Len.

They can say it but no NCTA can. :-)

Do you think it's funny?

Now - did the US Army not use any morse code after 1952?
How about the US Navy? COast Guard? Air Force? Marines?

Of course they did.

And Jimmie and Mikey were THERE to prove it! [gotta love it]

What? Sorry, but I wan't anything at that point in time.

How about in 1972, Mike?

Hey! What did I just get draggd into, anyway? I don't ercall posting
anything on what the Army and Navy were using in the olde days!

See "the short version" below:

Tsk. Jimmie and Mikey ought to look beyond the ARRL
phrases and ask the military what is actually used. One on-line
source is the USAF's free download "From Flares to Satellites,"
available at the USAF Communications Command website. An
informative small book.

Thanks for the info. I'll check it out.

I've mentioned that before in here. Matters not to Jimmie and
Mikey because they WERE THERE and KNOW? Riiiight...in
their dreams they were...

I really don't understand why Lenover21 thinks I think I was there.

I've pointed out all sorts of references and sources of information
for quite a while in here on the REST of the radio world and what
is used there...but "that does not apply." The PCTA still think
that morsemanship is a required skill in the U.S. military and that
radiotelegraphers are "still needed!"

Where have I ever written that, Len?

I haven't written that, and I don't think I even think that.... if I
*were* to even think about it. I think.

Has someone in here been posting things under my name?

Not to my knowledge, Mike.

Well, you know ALL there is to know in here... :-)

Was there Morse Code in use by the US military after 1952 or not?

Now that I do know. Yes it was. A colleague worked with it during the
early 70's.

But! What does all this military stuff have to do with Ham radio. We
are not military.

Here's "the short version", Mike:

There *was* a time when the US military (all branches) used Morse Code for
radio communications - extensively. Of course after about 1920 or so they
used
other modes too, but Morse Code on military radio played a central role in
WW2
and for many years afterward.

Of course Morse Code for military communications suffers from some basic
problems: It's slower than some modes, particularly RTTY, and it requires the
use of skilled operators at both ends of a circuit (RTTY requires only that
the transmitting op know how to type).

Morse code is slower that ALL modes. Tell the truth.

Yes, all must "know how to type" on a teleprinter...look at the keys,
read their tops, press the appropriate key, see it appear on paper or
screen. Difficult. Hi hi.

Once upon a time, the need for trained Morse Code radio operators was given as
a valid reason for ham radio having a Morse Code test, because hams would then
form a source of self-trained candidates for the military. In both World Wars,
there arose times when the US military needed to rapidly expand their number
of
Morse Code radio operators, and many of them came from the ranks of hams of
the
time.

World War 2 ended 59 years ago. Having served your country, you knew
that, didn't you? :-)

Of course the US military has pretty much completely phased out the use of
Morse Code for radio communications. Probably the last extensive use ended
with
1997, when the Coast Guard ended its maritime Morse Code operations.

Not "pretty much." COMPLETELY.

There may be some very specialized uses for Morse Code in the US military left
today, but that's all. Heck, the Navy doesn't even have a "Radioman"
title/MOS/job description anymore. So that old reason for a Morse Code test
has
lost its validity over time.

Old legends die with difficulty...but they DO die...

Where Len fits into all this is that he was at ADA in Japan in the early
1950s.
He worked on their radio transmitters there. Their main radio task was long
distance communications back to the Pentagon and other locations around the
Pacific. ADA didn't use Morse Code; all the messages went by RTTY on fixed,
predetermined frequencies determined mostly by propagation.

Tsk. Operations and Maintenance. Supervisor.

NONE of the stations in ACAN used morse code for communicaitons. Still
don't after 51+ years.

Len apparently thinks that because ADA transmitter technicians didn't need to
know Morse Code to do their jobs in 1952, amateur radio operators shouldn't
have to know Morse Code to get amateur radio licenses in 2004. In fact, Len
apparently thinks that because ADA transmitter technicians didn't need to know
Morse Code to do their jobs in 1952, amateur radio operators shouldn't have
had
to know Morse Code to get amateur radio licenses for many years before 2004.

Nice reducto ad absurdum non-summation. Tsk, you forget that a station
in the ACAN was my FIRST exposure to the Big Leagues in HF comms.
It wasn't the last. Experience and observation of the past half century has
shown that morse code testing is nothing more than an artificiality, a
fallacy in thinking kept alive by fantasy belief systems of olde-tymers in
hamme raddio.

Of course, as you say, "we're not military", so that logic is faulty. But it's
what Len is yelling about here.

Am I "yelling?" Heh heh, I don't think so.

Some time back, I posted a short description (written by others) of operations
at radio station WAR early in 1942. Included a description of the use of Morse
Code their. Len went ballistic on that one.

Tsk, tsk. "Ballistic?" Hi hi.

WAR (Washington Army Radio) was the biggest station in ACAN. In 1953
it was all teleprinter for communications...and DURING WW2 the major
communications mode was teleprinter, not the alleged morsemanship stuff
implied in that "short description" written by another.

Further back, I posted a description of one of the code test used at US Navy
Radioman "A" school in 1958 (24 wpm, 5 letter code groups, copy on a
typewriter. Maximum allowable errors: 3 in a one-hour session). I don't
recall a favorable reaction from Len...

Poor baby. Want me to gush about morsemanship? That's asking for
too much... :-)

1958 is 46 years ago. Times have changed a bit since then. Really.

Even earlier, another amateur and professional radio operator (Jeff Herman)
posted a fascinating description of what it wa like to operate Coast Guard
radio at NMO in Hawaii. Included lots of Morse Code - well into the 1990s.
Len's reaction was the now-famous "sphincter post"....

"Famous?" I don't think so. In your mind, perhaps.

Tsk. Jeff Herman is a "lecturer in mathematics at a university!"
In reality he is an instructor at a junior college...based on another
little back-and-forth we had...from references of the junior college
website and instructor listing.

Morsemanship allows one to use Titles such as "lecturer?" Hi hi.

Perhaps Len wants *all* amateur radio tests eliminated.

I am beginning to suspect that may be the case..

Me too. Make amateur radio just like cb. No legal homebrewing, no tests,
no Morse code at all.

Tsk. ERROR. WRONG. INCORRECT.

"That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it."

I've advocated TOUGHER written tests for U.S. amateur radio,
never total elimination of the written test. That's in Google.

Where? I don't ever recall reading that from you at all.

Was it in any of your many comments to FCC?

I haven't mentioned that in the last few years because there's too
much ignorance of both theory and regulations on the part of those
self-righteous PCTA.

I don't think so. You've never spared the verbiage here.

Note that Len never says what he wants something to be, only what it
should not
be. Except for his never-retracted demand that FCC enact an age
requirement of 14 years for any class of ham license.

You forgot to add "...and therefore Len should be barred forever from
saying anything about anybody under penalty of law!" [do not remove
that tag]

No, I didn't forget to add anything, Len. I don't want to silence anyone,
nor deny anyone's free speech rights.

I don't mind Lenover21's posting here at all.

Some do. But 'minding' someone's posting doesn't mean anyone wants it
suppressed.

How about "minding one's manners?" :-)

Tsk. All who are NCTA want to sink PCTA to "their level?" :-)

Sometimes maybe people can mistake disagreement with suppression.

That's what Len seems to think. He seems to think that disagreeing with him is
the same as telling him to shut up. Worse, he *really* gets ticked when
someone
points out an error in his information or logic. Like the whole flap about
Fessenden using voice radio in 1900...

Tsk. My "error." :-)

Of course, everyone in radio broadcasting jumped right in with the
Fessenden system of modulation...putting a microphone in series with
the antenna lead. :-)

I've never told anyone online to shut up.

You have.

"Do as Len says, not as Len does"

Not conducive to a hobby activity. More conducive to a
dictatorship.

Like telling people to shut up...

"Shut up, just take the damn test!" (from others to me...)

Who wrote that to you, Len? When did they do it?

I never saw that! I do recall a post where someone said something about
Lenover21 taking a test, but don't recall any of what is in qoutes.

Back on January 19, 2000, Len (as Lenof21) wrote that he was "going for Extra
right out of the box". He didn't. Almost five years now and he's not even
tried the Tech written.

Heinous crime against the state! Terrible! :-)

Of course an amateur radio license isn't a prerequisite to posting here.
However, it *does* help with someone's credibility among radio amateurs.

Tsk. Again my fault. I can't quite get a foothold on the fantasies
and mythos surrounding amateurism. Must be the contamination of
working with professionals so long...

Did Dave Heil, K8MN, ever write that to you?

I cannot recall K8MN ever telling anyone to shut up.

In fact, the exact phrase Len used was:

LHA: "Shut the hell up, you little USMC feldwebel"

USMC does not refer to the Marine Corps. "Feldwebel" is German for corporal,
the rank held by a certain mid-20th-century dictator when he was in the
German army in WW1.

"Feldwebel" is a general/colloquial descriptor of any German army
enlisted type, particularly NCOs which have the more proper title of
"Feldhern" or "Feldherren."

Those who act like the archtypical feldwebels tend to get called what
they are.

But, if said to a PCTA extra, it is a capital crime in here. :-)

I don't recall Len using any smileys with that, either.

Len seems to think that if one person tells him to "shut up", it somehow
justifies him telling someone else to "shut up".

My folks taught me better.

He missed that lesson.

Tsk. Must be 'cause I didn't grow up Catholic or fully in the east.

So, how much did your respective parents charge for all those
"lessons" supposedly given to others not in the family?

That's faulty logic on Len's part.

I say, "Speak up Lenover21!" Don't allow people to squelch you!

Len doesn't need any encouragement to speak up ;-)

Tsk. I should have stayed in Marina del Rey longer... :-)