In article , Mike Coslo writes:

N2EY wrote:
In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

N2EY wrote:

In article , Mike Coslo
writes:

some snippage

My initial research leads me to believe that it is possible to inflate
and release a latex balloon carrying a payload into the Stratosphere.

This is based on the published results of other groups that are doing
this sort of thing at this time.

This is also based on correspondence with two people experienced in
launching similar balloons.

Mt initial research leads me to believe that it is possible to
incorporate into that payload, several devices, including a GPS, various
Amateur radio transceivers, and cameras. This payload may be controlled
by various electronic control systems. Many are using a "Basic Stamp"
processor. This research also leads me to believe that by using a packet
radio system, the information from the GPS and other sensors may be
transmitted to a computer that can keep track of the payload.

If I may offer a suggestion: Keep the first flights simple.

This is based on what others are doing at this time, and some basic
radio knowledge and knowledge of size and weight requirements and known
equipment that fits the requirements.

My initial research leads me to believe that I can construct a payload
that will adequately protect the equipment from the low temperatures
encountered in this area of the stratosphere.

Since the payload will spend a relatively short time in the cold, the
insulation can be less than what would be needed for long duration.

This is based on what others are doing at this time. Although more
extensive calculations might be performed to find an ideal amount of
insulation, it must be noted that those projects that are using simple
insulation such as foam sheathing are not experiencing cold related
failures. This leads me to conclude that at worst, a derivative sort of
payload container might be made and operate successfully.

IOW: "If it happens, it must be possible".

Such a simple concept - so hard for some to grasp....

If for some reason more research was needed an experiment might be
arranged where the payload was packaged in Dry ice for say 5 hours -
this would be much longer than any anticipated mission, and with dry ice
having a temperature of around -109F, we could make a reasonable
approximation of the altitude conditions, temperature- wise.

Consider also the effect of launching in midsummer. The payload starts off at,
say, 100 degrees F inside the insulation....

My initial research leads me to believe that this can be achieved at a
reasonable cost. Reasonable is quite relative, of course, but with 40
dollar type prices for balloons, and around 50 dollars per launch of
helium, (less for hydrogen) the relative inexpensiveness of payload
construction materials, and that except for the unexpected loss of
damage of a payload, the payload parts are multi-mission, the price per
launch can be kept in the 200 dollar range. If used/donated parts can be
utilized, the cost can be reduced even more.

There's also the fact of free labor, and donation of incidental expenses
like fuel and food.

Yup. This is a thing that people do for a part of a hobby. There are
enough of that sort around.

Right.

Note that I am not trying to advertise this as some sort of el cheapo
project. When I say surprisingly inexpensive, I mean that at least in my
case, I would have guessed that this sort of thing would have cost many
thousands of dollars per launch. It doesn't appear to. If it would cost
us that much, we are doing something different than the other folks that
are doing this.

Yup.

My initial research leads me to believe that the powers that be do not
place undue restrictions on these launches.

I conclude this by the relevant documents that are issued by the FAA,
and the accounts by the people that are doing this sort of thing.

So it looks like you've "done your homework"..

I think so. There is always something else to learn, but that's another
part of the fun.

Kewl

And this is a bad thing - how?

Well, you might actually get some balloons launched, and prove Len to be
absolutely wrong.....

Again

Yup. Despite his *tables*

The tables will show that a properly-designed "latex weather ballon" can
reach 100,000 feet. Remember:

"If it happens, it must be possible"

A lack of
hands-on experience has not held you back......why should it apply
differently to others?

Hasn't held Len back, even when he's wrong!!


Len isn't. Says it all.

Well, it *would* be confusing wouldn't it?

Len's just wrong about the latex weather balloons. Not confusing at all.

No, I mean it would be confusing to his view, since we would be messing
up his opinion with facts.

That's a definite no-no. ;-)

Three words: Eagles tailgate party.

I don't believe that people have Eagles tailgate parties! Can't be.
I've been to Philadelphia many times, and I have not seen one Eagles
tailgate party. Besides, the owners of the stadium would NEVER allow
tailgate parties in the parking lots outside the stadium. The liability
issues would be tremendous. Besides, you need to produce the
calculations that show that you could pack people into a car, add food,
and set up and feed them outside the stadium. How many Eagles tailgate
parties have you put on. You cannot comment on an Eagles tailgate party
unless you have attended and put on on, which you can't do because they
won't allow them anyhow.

haw

Whoeee, now that's a vent! But it does illustrate some of the
frustration I experience while on this subject. I'd love to discuss the
various facets of the project, the equipment, and the policy aspects of
it. (remember this whole thing was brought up in a policy context)

But I can't do that because of the insistence by some that I and others
can't do it for one reason or the other. This in spite of my addressing
every concern.

Of course you can discuss those issues! You just can't discuss them with
the naysayers!

Do you really think Len would have *anything* positive to contribute to the
project?

Snort! Too bad, that!

Just a beacon? How about some telemetry via Morse?

Some do use morse telemetry. Oddly enough, they translate it with
CWGet.

Ugh

I'll probably use packet for telemetry.

I've been discussing this with one of the partners. The packet will
give us one more level of redundancy, since we can have people that have
internet access during the flight look at the position with APRS.

Only if there's a way for the data to get onto the internet.

Now morse QSO's are a possibility.

I am liking this more and more...

I'm looking at it in a repeater fashion or remote. I have to see what
the F.C.C. rules are related to this.

You mean...like somebody who builds an entire ham station out of mostly
recycled parts? And then is called "cheap" because it only him cost $100?

I happen to like being cheap! And I respect it too.

"Cheap" implies shoddiness. I think a better choice is "frugal".


Not a problem at all. Questions are good. Skepticism is good. I/we
learn and polish our act that way. Gratuitous insults are bad though!

Did you *really* expect any usable input from Len?

Everyone gives me usable input. Brian Burke has given me really good
input, Len and other Brian have too. I can take the advisement as what
happens when you interact with people that expect (want?) you to fail.
This helps, believe it or not.

"No [fill in this blank] is a complete waste. He/she/it can always serve as a
horrible example"

Perhaps you could send a copy of those atmospheric tables up on the first
100,000 foot flight.....

hehe!

Just tuck them in with "Leonard"...

Seriously, we probably won't be sending any live payload. There would
probably be some ethical issues and complaints.

oh the humanity

I can go into Foxhunting techniques for landing, but I suspect most
here would know about that already.

There is one really big problem you cannot avoid, though....

Here in EPA, a *lot* of the land surface area is either wooded or
developed. Or
water, paved road, etc. This isn't prairie country, like where most of the
launches take place.

The chances that you'll be able to recover the package are adversely
affected
by this. If it hangs up 60 feet in a tree, or on a power line, or on top of
a building, it's probably gone forever.

Doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done, just that the risk is greater.

It is a much bigger risk. The worst case scenario is a payload that
lands in the north central part of the state.

No, I can think of worse ones.

There are some areas that
are darn near wilderness there. So I/we have to be prepared to do some
serious hiking under a few circumstances. That's okay - it doesn't
bother me a bit. Hiking in Pennsylvania is a gift.

Of course. Just don't do it during deer season.

(moment of silence for the Wisconsin tragedy)

I don't know if you saw the link from the people in Mass.? A couple of
their payloads landed in the *big* pond!

Loss of a payload is one thing; it's bad but if you make the payload
inexpensive enough, it's not a big deal. An acceptable risk.

OTOH, I can imagine the payload landing on a power line and causing an outage,
or even a fire. Or landing on a busy interstate, somebody's house or business,
etc. Not the kind of publicity ham radio needs...

I wonder if it might not be more desirable to launch with the *intent* of the
payload coming down over water. Like Chesapeake Bay. Should not be hard to make
it float.

73 de Jim, N2EY