On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 15:08:57 -0400, (Twistedhed)
wrote:

From: (Dave*Hall)
On Thu, 19 Aug 2004 16:15:14 -0400, (Twistedhed)
wrote:
Part Deux
I thought the last thread was a little short.....


I'm attempting to pacify your quest for brevity

Thank you.


Do some homework on the wealth of information out there,,,visit some of
the hacker sites and groups,,,how do you think the launchers of serious
virus' are tracked down?


The same way as many other criminals are
caught. They brag to their friends and get
turned in. That still doesn't address the basic
technical issue of how people can
anonymously post messages and e-mail using
"public" internet access or through clever
technical means to disguise their identity. A
simple IP lookup is no guarantee that you will
find the actual user.

In the fist manner, I was under the impression you were speaking of this
group.

I'm talking about the internet in general.

Since it is now apparent you are
experiencing problems of this nature somewhere else, I suggest you
consult an attorney.

What would give you that idea? I'm talking
purely hypothetically.


I concern myself with real word issues. I don;t have time to sit around
entertaing "what-if's" in the world.

I can respect that. I also "live" in the here and now, but I like to
ponder the future and potential situations. Like playing chess, you
have to keep a few moves ahead of your opponent and try to anticipate
where they will be going.

Or are you saying that we all should just have
to deal with abusive insulting and libelous
comments because they are not worth the
trouble to pursue seriously?

If my emotions were to take over, I would simply turn the thing off and
walk away. No one is forcing you to partake in what you view as an
injurous electronic arena. It is your choice.
-
The same "turn it to the left" mentality that
abusive CBers use to force good people off of
the CB band?

The very idea that you feel "forced" by another has moved you to the
point of wanting to force others to conform to your beliefs,,,nice.


Not forced to conform to "my" beliefs. Only
that they maintain a certain level of
accountability and by extension civility.


Yes,,accountability and civility according to YOUR beliefs, not the law.
You have already demonstrated your disain and disagreeing with the law
that allows anonymity in life, most recently, to usenet and CB.

The law does not allow a person to use anonymity to adversely affect
the rights of other people. That seems to be something you have
trouble understanding.

There are no absolutes when it comes to rights. Rights are always
relative, and subject to compromises, when they clash with the rights
of other people.



Decent people should be forced to yield to
malcontents, rather than fight back?


That is a personal decision and an apparent unresolved issue that
plagues you.


So you posit that decent people should be
held hostage to the whims of these
malcontents, and those of us who feel
otherwise have "issues"?



There are no "us", as you are alone in your radical beliefs.
No one else
feels "held hostage" or "forced" concerning their freedom of choice to
partake in usenet, only you.

How can you make such a definitive statement? How can you be so sure
that I am, in fact, "alone"? You tend to make these blatantly absolute
statements quite frequently, when there is no possible way you can
speak with any authority on the subject.

You might want to do a Google search on the issues of privacy, the
internet, anonymity and the law regarding these things, and you will
find that quite a few people are looking to change the way things are
done.


I believe in the example of not saying
something on a forum, that you wouldn't have
the cajones to say to someone's face.

Very noble. Many agree with you. Obviously, those like Dogie, do not.


Doug has personal issues of his own.


..and he fostered his personal issues on this group. Again, I ask of
you, how would you he be held accountable for such behavior that you
continue to rail against?

If you are asking how Doug should be held
accountable, first I'd have to ask; how do we
know for sure that the person everyone thinks
is Doug, really is?

Yea, you already established that the same entity (the FCC) you say we
should all obey can be mistaken when it comes to Dogie's bust, but they
couldn't possibly be mistaken in not repealing their poorly constructed
dx rule.

Woah, lets not put words in my mouth. I wholeheartedly agree with you
that the FCC should remove the DX limitation. If it were up to me,
they should allow unlimited DX, allow 100 watts of power, and open the
band from 26.000 Mhz to 28.000 Mhz.



AS always, you take an issue and slant it toward your own
agenda, invoking it (the FCC) as one we should obey, but not necessarily
believe. More hypocrisy.

Well, yea, if you assume to know what I think, as opposed to what I
really think.

_
Once we establish that it is him, then he
should have his access revoked for behaving
in an inappropriate manner.


Well, there you have it. It is not up to YOU to establish anything. His
antics have been reporeted many times by the many on this group and he
has lost several accesses to this group over the years. Yet, it is not
up to any "we" to establish his wrong doing,,,that is the job of his
isp, and when they find such, as they had in the past, they take
action,,not you, despite the status you seek.

I don't care who does it, as long as it's done.

_
I have incredible restraint and am overly
polite, even to you in many instances when you began reambling off-topic
with insult. I invite anyone who has a problem with me to come forward.

How does one "come forward" if we don't
know who you are or where you live?

"We" lends the notion you are aware of someone, other than you, who
shares your incredible identity obsessions and problem regarding myself.
Care to specify?


That is paranoia speaking.


No, it is a command grasp of basic English. You said "we". "We" is not
singular. Again, I ask who you refer in addition to yourself?


All that "We" refers to is anyone who happens
to be a member of this group who would like
the opportunity to "come forward". Nothing
nefarious about it.


No,,you said how do "we" come forward if
"we" don;t know who you are. Not many really care WHO I am in addition
to yourself, Now, I ask again, who else do you profess to caring about
my identity as much as yourself?

Your paranoia is showing again. I use the term "We" as this is a
public forum, which includes more people than you and I. That makes it
a "we" issue.


Who I am and where I live is personal information, something you claimed
you didn't seek.

I don't need to know, but if you want me to
"come forward" I do need to know some
details.


Oh, I NEVER said I wanted you to come forward

Perhaps you've forgotten your own quote from a few paragraphs above:

" I invite anyone who has a problem with me to come forward." Do I
not count as "anyone"?


,,,just the opposite, you
said you were coming to Florida.

After you made your invite to "come forward".


My invite hasn' changed. Anyone that
wishes or "wants" to look me up can do do.

Look you up? How is one supposed to do that when you are not
forthcoming with certain pertinent information?

If I was concerned about you,
then I would travel to you, but this isn't the case. YOU apparently want
to come forward, so come on down.

I'm merely calling your bluff. You know that I live an impractical
driving distance from you, so you feel relatively safe, in making that
claim. Now that you have an opportunity to make good on your invite,
you start, ever so slightly, to back pedal. I'm guessing that you will
find some way to wiggle out of any chance of a face-to-face meeting,
as it would blow the lid off of your secret life.


I mean Florida is a big state (assuming that is
where you really live)


Well then, if you have doubts, perhaps you better reconsider.


Many know where I live. I am incredibly easy to find, as Doctor X
recently found.


Does Dr. X know where you live?

Dr. X never asked.

So he doesn't know. Although you implied such in your last statement
above.


Does anyone?

Oh yesiree


Somehow I doubt it. You are a little too
secretive about this. And you know all too
well, that once one person finds out, it'll only
be a matter of time before the information
spreads around.


More of your far-removed delusions. I have ordered apparatus from two
separate regular businesses on this group, one place twice. That makes
two businesses in addition to those I have met from this group that
"know" me.

We only have your word for that, so it is as meaningless as you claim
my accounts are of the CBer who got popped in Norristown.

Besides, anyone can use an anonymous PO box or other address to
conduct business. They don't even need a real name as long as the
payment is real.


See Davie, these people don't give a damn as they don't have
the motives you telegraph with your intentions to "spread around"
personal information. This is undertaken by those like yourself.

They probably don't know it was you they were dealing with either.

I have found through many years of experience on CB, that one of the
best ways to rid a channel of a belligerent anonymous troublemaker,
was to simply locate them and then make that information public. Once
they are unmasked, they tend to give up causing trouble, since they
are basically cowards.



Ok, I'm coming to Orlando in October. I might
make a detour to Tampa. Where do you want
to meet?

My house. Are you driving? Bring a radio. I'll guide you right to my
front door from the interstate.


I'm flying, renting a car, no room to pack
radios. Doing "Mickey Mouse" for my kid.


Mickey Mouse is like a six foot rat to little toddlers.

My daughter just wants to ride Space Mountain, and see all the sights.

I'm 90 minutes from Orlando. Provide me a cell phone number like Keith did and I'll
call you, if that's what you wish.

I don't own a cell phone. But I might bring a 2 meter H.T. There are
several 2 meter repeaters in the greater Tampa area. You already know
my callsign.

I'll give you precise directions. In
fact, if you rent a room in Tampa Bay for a day, I'll take you and show
you the way Florida was millions of years ago. Some areas remain
untouched.

I've seen some of those areas. I'm no newby to Florida, although I
tend to prefer the east coast. I almost moved to Melborne 14 years
ago. I might even stop at my favorite steak house, Farmer Jones Red
Barn in Lakeland. I hope they're still there.


Anonymity is the enabler for people to act
inappropriately, and rudely. Using the excuse
that privacy overrides acting in a civilized
manner is weak IMHO.


No one suggested such..but the gist of it, is that American's are
afforded the right to act like idiots, even it offends you to no end.
Using the excuse that it ought be over-ridden is what is weak.

So then you assert that an American's right to
act like an anti-social idiot deserves more
consideration than other people's right to
expect civilized behavior in public places?


You said that. You're wandering. You are confusing consideration with
rights. There are very many things I can do well within my rights that
offend you, in fact, I have no problem offending you with my legal
rights merely because you disagree with them and my right to exercise
them.

If it is a simple matter of subjectivity and value judgement, then I
agree with you. But when the exercising of your rights negatively
impacts on the rights of others, the line becomes drawn, and some sort
of compromise is in order. Remember, you rights are not worth any more
(or less) than anyone else's rights. You have no exclusivity.



It has everything to do with the core issue.

Which was what? Law? Breaking the law? Offending you isn't necessarily
against the law.

We aren't talking about a simple case of "offending" me.


You are attempting to make value judgements
regarding the relative priority of the rights that
people have. You have prioritized the right to
privacy (and by extension enabled the
unaccountable actions of malcontents) over
the right of people to expect civilized behavior
in public places.


I didn't make that priority,,,the law did.

The law has done no such thing. In fact, laws are being crafted right
now to deal with this relatively new forum for abuse, and to protect
the rights of people who are victimized by anonymous people who hide
to escape retribution.


The law outweighs your demand
for what you interpret as civilized behavior.

When those rights clash,
something has to give. You seem to have
made your choice, even though you keep
dancing around it and not quite ready to
directly admit to it.

What you misinterpret as clashing rights is not illegal.

The truth in that statements depends on the details of the infraction.


Dave
"Sandbagger"
http://home.ptd.net/~n3cvj