"Frank Dresser" wrote in message
news

"Michael" wrote in message
...

So? My point was about the slow pace of technological development in
slave
societies. Neither the slave nor the slave owner has any strong
incentive
to create newer, better ways of doing things. The slave owner's surest
way
to get richer is to buy more slaves. The slave risks punishment for
failure, but will won't much benefit from success.

More than that, freedom allows far more creative minds to work on a
problem.
I suppose the small percentage of free Roman elites might have someday
devloped shortwave radio. Maybe by the year 3000 or something.

In order to accept that you would have to ignore the fact that the Romans
reigned supreme as the masters of architecture and building materials.


Yeah, but the Egyptians reigned supreme as the masters of ancient
electronics. They had batteries and were electroplating. Big deal. The
art was lost and not rediscovered 'till the after the Romans left the
scene.

The Greeks and Mayans made some impressive stoneworks, as well. If
shortwave radios could be made from piles of stone, they would have done
it
first.

The most complex of Greek architecture does not equal the sophistication of
the most complex of what the Romans built. Not even close. That is not to
diminish the tremendous and positive influence that the Greeks had on the
Romans and ultimately, the world. The Mayans could stack heavy blocks in
nice tall pyramid shapes. There was no room in any of their large
structures because they didn't have the arch or anything like it. They were
hulking piles of stone blocks with tiny rooms at the top that weren't big
enough to live in. The Mayans also out did the Romans in horrific and
bizarre human sacrifices.

Do you honestly believe the pace of innovation of a slave society can
compete with the pace of innovation of a free society? If so, how? Where
is the evidence?

Slave societies hardly innovate in a technological way. Nearly every
worthwhile invention has come in the years since the common man has had a
chance to profit from his own labors.

Yet another reference to slavery is pointless misdirection. I've already
pointed out that the US had the institution of slavery. Do you know how
many patentable inventions there were on the CSS Virginia and the Monitor
??? That was done in a slave country. Is a civilization without slavery
better ??? Yes... Sure is... Does that mean the Romans were all bad ???
No.... Does that take away from what they accomplished and left for the
world ??? According to you, yes. According to anyone else who studies
history... No. Done waste your time arguing against that.


Although they get historic accolades for law and government, they were
also
the worlds master builders. Not of useless and hulking monuments, but of
practical and powerful architecture. The stuff that lasting cultures and
civilizations are built on. A simple example of their mastery: When new
St
Peters Basilica was built, the architects had to study the dome of the
Pantheon to get their bearings.

Modern architects HAD to study the dome? Does that really mean the new
St.
Peter's Basilica couldn't be built if the Pantheon didn't exist?


No, but the fact that they did study the Pantheon speaks volumes about the
level of skill that the Romans had. It wasnt a pyramid shaped stack of
blocks. It was and still is sophisticated archetecture.

Ancient Rome was far more then slavery. You have to admit that. Many
historians feel that the Roman Empire was so successful in transmuting
its
positive components of law, government and civilization that it is
legitimate to say that it didn't really fall. It just morphed.
Fortunately, the components of slavery and blood sport didn't make it
into
Rome Mark Two; post imperial western civilization.

Law and government isn't technological innovation. The greatest advance
is
civilization was the concept that all men are created equal.

All men are not created equal. No two living things have an equal chance.
That is where law and government comes in. Law and government assures that
all men will be given equal and fair treatment under the law. Human rights
are cataloged and driven by law. Assured equality is ENTIRELY legal and
social, not natural.


The ancient world could be brutal in general. What puts the Romans above
their contemporaries is that despite the institution of slavery (and the
US
had it too !!!), they were by far the most socially, racially and
religiously inclusive of any of the ancient civilizations. Not to
mention,
extremely well founded mechanisms of law and government. Add to that,
they
built buildings, public works and founded cites 2,000 years ago that are
still functioning today.

Of course, the Romans built things to last. They had to. They were
technologically ossified.

A useless and fallacious statement.