RadioBanter - View Single Post

April 15th 05, 04:22 AM

From: on Thurs,Apr 14 2005 3:42 am

wrote:
From: on Wed,Apr 13 2005 4:28 am

[etc., etc., etc...]

Granted, you didn't see any "morse code modes" in use at
ADA. But to say there was none used at all, anywhere in the
US military is a different thing.

Tsk, tsk, tsk. Changing the subject.

Long-distance point-to-point communications bore
the brunt of ALL military branchs' message traffic
to an amount of GREATER than a million messages a
month.

What's interesting is that you have to qualify the statement
as "long-distance point-to-point communications" - because
Morse Code was then still being used *extensively* by the US
Navy, by the maritime radio services, by aircraft and by many
other radio services such as press services.

"Extensively?!?" HOW DO YOU KNOW? :-)

Sweetums, I WAS PART OF IT. :-) Army station ADA, as
assigned to Far East Command Headquarters, carried not
only Army traffic, but some USN traffic, some USAF
traffic, some Press Services, even some Red Cross
message traffic. ALL on TTY. Not a bit of morse
code. And ADA was just the third largest station in
ACAN (Army Commmand and Administrative Network). That
"little" station (36 transmitters, all over 1 KW and
on 24/7) relayed 220 thousand messages a month (1955).
WAR (Washington Army Radio) handled over a million a
month then.

Sweetums, that "extensively" is just your wishful
thinking. Of course there was SOME morse being used
by all branches in 1953. But, HOW MUCH? YOU DON'T
KNOW! YOU WERE NEVER IN. YOU NEVER DID IT FOR THE
MILITARY.

Your tunnel vision of "long-distance point-to-point communications" by
the US military is about as relevant as the
fact that Morse Code wasn't in use on the AM broadcast band in the
1930s.

Tsk. A reducto ad absurdum. You must be getting
rattled, sweetums.

You are too young to have listened to Walter Winchell's
"news broadcasts" on radio. He "used morse code" at
every opening...apparently for some weird "authenticity"
since ol' Walt was getting on towards Alzheimers at the
time.

And it was on fixed, predetermined frequencies, using equipment
most individuals could not afford to buy.

Tsk, that's called PROFESSIONAL COMMUNICATIONS, sweetums.
When one is IN the Cold War and trying NOT to let it
develop into a nuclear confrontation, one uses absolutely
the BEST stuff to "get the message through."

I'm sure the Canadian military did the same within their
budget constraints.

You want the U.S. military to act like amateurs? :-)

Some of us think that POLICY of the U.S. government
is "done by amateurs" but that's a whole other story.

So, famous historian of radio, DID THE CANADIANS USE
MILITARY RADIO LIKE AMATEURS?

And it was *not* the kind of communications that make up the vast
majority of amateur radio communications.

Don't misdirect, sweetums.

YOU started this thread with an emotional message about
"morse code in the window" at a CANADIAN MILITARY
museum. Try to stay within a few light-years of the
subject.

At some point, anyway. The US Navy was still using Morse Code long
after the beginning of the 1950s.

HOW DO YOU KNOW? YOU DIDN'T SERVE.

So was the Coast Guard.

HOW DO YOU KNOW? YOU DIDN'T SERVE.

That SHOULD have some meaning to rational
persons insofar as the efficacy of morse code for
communications...

There you go, Len, assuming your conclusion.

What you're saying is that because the Army didn't use it,
nobody should use it.

For the VAST MAJORITY of message traffic in the U.S.
military - ALL BRANCHES - morse code mode was NOT
used "extensively."

What the heck, Jimmie Noserve, you weren't IN any
military, not even in Canada. Why are you all upset?

Here's a hint: Ham radio isn't the US Army. When Uncle Sam
is willing to buy radios for all hams, then maybe you'll
have a point.

OH! OH! ERROR! MISTAKE!

First of all, your buddie and pal, Stevie he say
that "MARS IS amateur radio!" Tsk. MARS' first
letter in that acronym means MILITARY.

Secondly, check with a REAL MARS civilian volunteer.
You will find out that the military GIVES them radio
goodies. No need to "buy." Military already bought
the stuff and used it. Be NICE to MARS folks,
Jimmie, maybe they'll GIVE you an AN/FRC-93 for
nothing; it's a Collins KWM2 Commercial transceiver
with a military nameplate.

too prone to human errors by its operators,

All communications modes are prone to operator error. The
person typing on a teleprinter can make a mistake, too.

HOW DO YOU KNOW? Don't see any TTY in that picture of
YOUR ham shack! :-)

Nope. You just don't like the mode.

Sweetums, I just don't LIKE the TEST for it. :-)

Tsk. You get SO confused when someone doesn't "like"
EVERYTHING about morse code!

by now, EVERY other
radio service has either DROPPED the mode (if they used
it at all in the past) or NEVER CONSIDERED it when that
radio service began.

So what, Len? That's like saying that since almost all motor vehicles
don't have manual transmissions anymore, no vehicles should have them.
gave up having

"...give up having..." Tsk. Got so flustered you couldn't
finish the sentence? :-)

Hello? Have you taken a state driver license exam?

Lately?

Look again and see how many questions there are on
MANUAL TRANSMISSION automobile operation.

Sweetums, I was talking about the morse code TEST.

You began this whole thread with an emotional thing
about "morse code in the window" at a Canadian
military museum. I wasn't talking about automotive
design. There's a rec newsgroup on that but I don't
know it's name. Automotive design doesn't belong in
here anyway.

The main reason Morse Code was replaced by other modes in
other radio services is that it required skilled operators
at both ends of the circuit. Skilled operators cost money
and have to be taken care of, and the speed and accuracy of
communications is limited to their skill level. So the skilled
operator was eliminated by technology, to save time and money.

Riiiight, Jimmie, but you've de-emphasized "other modes"
to try and make your case. You didn't for a lot of
reasons.

Day-in, day-out morse mode manual comms can probably
handle 20 WPM rates. If the morsemen are good. I'm
talking SUSTAINED hour-by-hour operation, NOT burst
mode stuff which CAN be faster.

The OLD teleprinters could chug along CONTINUOUSLY at
60 WPM from the 1930s onward. Paper tape could be
prepared ahead of time and used in automatic transmitting
distributors, be punched at the receiving end also.
By the 1960s the NEWER teleprinters were chugging along
at 100 WPM SUSTAINED. No problem. Teleprinter makers
did excellent electromechanical designs. Just think,
SUSTAINED THROUGHPUT at 100 WPM! 24/7 if there were
folks to keep feeding the machines paper, p-tape, and
electricity. No bathroom breaks, no need to sleep,
no need for food breaks.

By the 1970s the electromechanical systems were being
replaced by DATA, teleprinting by electronics, first
with rates of 300 WPM, then 1200 WPM, then 2400 WPM,
and finally at 56000 WPM over voice-grade circuits.
[getting close to Shannon's limit on today's modems]

What you're saying, then, is that you want to eliminate the skilled
operators from ham radio, too.

NO, sweetums. What I've ALWAYS SAID is to toss, throw
away, eliminate the morse code TEST for amateur radio
license. THE TEST.

In the United States, "ARS" does NOT stand for "Amateur
RadioTELEGRAPHY Service." There is NO requirement for
any U.S. amateur licensee to operate on morse code mode.
ALL allocated modes are optional to use for any class.

Why do you keep insisting that the ONLY SKILL in ham
radio is morsemanship?

If morsemanship is such a wonderful thing, then it should
be optional for any ham to become a good morseman ON HIS
OR HER OWN. Since the U.S. government doesn't require
exclusive morse use, it shouldn't be ON the TEST.

For over half a century (actually, since before WW2)
the brunt of messaging in the military has been done
by modes OTHER than morse code.

Even if true, (it's not) so what?

HOW DO YOU KNOW? YOU'VE NEVER SERVED IN THE MILITARY.

You're argument says that since most US Navy ships stopped relying on
the wind for propulsion long ago, nobody should own a sailboat today,
even for "a hobby pursuit, a recreation, something done on free time
for enjoyment."

Sweetums, this newsgroup is NOT about BOATING.

YOU started this thread with an emotional message about
"morse code in the window" at a Canadian military museum.

Now you want to hoist a sail on your lil sabot? :-)

Show me the SSBN that uses "sail" as an alternate means
of propulsion...or the USS Kennedy aircraf carrier. :-)

Better yet, tell us how the USCG appreciates the use of
morse modes on harbor and river VHF communications? :-)

Very illogical.

Sweetums, you almost take the prize for today's reducto
ad absurdum message content!

The old Bell Telephone system handled a lot more than 1.5 million
"messages" a month back then, too.

HOW DO YOU KNOW? WERE YOU A TELEPHONE OPERATOR?

What possible connection does that have to the self-trained,
self-funded amateur radio operator?

WHAT POSSIBLE "CONNECTION" does a NON-VETERAN, NON-
CANADIAN have with a Canadian military museum that
has "morse code in the window?" :-)

It should be obvious to rational people that there is
NO need for any morse code testing for a hobby radio
activity.

There's where you make an illogical jump. You hold up what
the US military allegedly did, then say it's somehow connected
to what hams should do.

There's NO "allegedly" going on, Sweetums. It is recorded
history. I was THERE, DOING IT. You were NOT.

But you never say what the connection is. Just that "it's obvious to
rational people" - which it isn't.

I never said morsemen are "rational." :-)

What morse code testing for a hobby radio activity
has become is a travesty, a gross artificiality kept
in there by old-timers who managed to pass such tests
and keep insisting that all newcomers MUST do as they
did.

No, that's simply not true at all. It's just your way of
rationalizing your hatred, Len.

"Hatred?" Ain't NO "hatred," Jimeee.

You must think the ARS stands for Amateur RadioTELEGRAPHY
Service. You cannot conceive of the possibility that
U.S. amateur radio could ever exist without that beloved
code TEST and all the "importance" "skill" "grandeur" and
"nobility" of morsemanship. :-)

Since amateur radio operators *do* use Morse Code extensively, today,
on the air, for a wide variety of activities, it is perfectly obvious
to rational people that a basic test of Morse code skill is a
reasonable test requirement for a license.

That's the whole thing, right there.

NO! ERROR! MISTAKE!

The FCC has NOT *REQUIRED* morse use over an above any
other mode, any class licensee, for years. ALL allocated
modes are OPTIONAL for use. Since all those allocated
modes are OPTIONAL, then there is NO reason to require
a morse code test for a license.

Of course, that is a rational reason. Since some
morsemen are irrational in their absolute DEMAND to
RETAIN morse code testing, you might not approve. :-)

You resent knowing that another has done
it.

I don't resent it at all, Len. I'm just bored by your constant
repetition of the same old story and illogical conclusions.

Poor baby. Just like your buddie and pal, Psycho Psteve.

Anything against your Godlike judgement is an "error" or
"mistake" and you DISALLOW all such arguments. :-)

And you still haven't explained how what happened at ADA a
half-century
ago has any relevance to ham radio today.

Oh, my, you are still "unconvinced?" ADA, as well as AHA,
AGA, and lots of other Army stations used vacuum tube
transmitters. Seems to me that station N2EY uses TUBES!
Tsk, over half a century later and Jimmie still relies
on TUBES! :-)

Oh, and the SAME principles of physics applied to RADIO
then as well as now, regardless of human-designated
radio "service." ADA did its operation on HF. By odd
coincidence (or is it?) station N2EY also uses HF!

Sunnuvagun! :-)

Here's one more analogy to your alleged logic:

Now, now, Jimmie, you are getting testy... :-)

Inexpensive calculators have been around for a couple of decades now.
Almost nobody in business or the professions relies on manual
arithmetic anymore - even the smallest businesses, for example, use
electronic cash registers to do the calculations.

Wowee...such "extensive" analogy building. However, some
ERRORS!

"Pa" Watson, the one who began IBM, began as a cash register
salesman for NCR. All-mechanical cash registers. Those
worked real well for SMALL businesses before I was born.
The HP-35 and all the rest of the scientific calculators
that followed obliterated the demand for "slide rules!"

Where such manual calculation was once done, it has been completely
replaced by electronic methods. Manual calculation
is too slow, too error-prone, and too dependent on human skill.

Oh, my, yes!

Therefore, we should not require anyone to learn how to do such
calculations as addition, subtraction, multiplication or division, let
alone square roots or other techniques.

That's what you're saying. And it's nonsense.

Now, now, Jimmie, you are falling into the reducto ad
absurdum "argument" again. :-)

Maybe there's some situation where a cash register or
calculator was "necessary" for radio communication, but
dang if'n I know of one. Try to remember I've been doing
radio communications for a long time now...longer than
you've been alive (or at least born, that is). Never
heard of a radio license exam that REQUIRED demonstrating
basic arithmetic skills to get that license. :-)

Tsk. Anyone wanting logs or trig functions to better
than 5 figures needs to do a Taylor Series or other
polynomial equations to get an accurate answer?!? That's
DUMB, Jimmie, and you SHOULD know that is a complete
waste of time. Let the little scientific calculator do
it...good to 12 digits...double-precision computer
calculations are good to 14 decimal digits.

But, you are trying to make an "analogy" of basic math
skills to RADIO LICENSING! Good grief. Not ONE bit of
morse code involved in basic math skills! Tsk. You
ought to get all ARS licensees to WORK SPARK
TRANSMITTERS! VERY BASIC! THE *FIRST* TRANSMITTERS
FOR AMATEURS! Tradition and all that...long before you
were born, Jimmie.

Yes, I know "spark" is not allowed as an emission. So,
why are you constantly emitting all that nonsense about
the NEED TO KNOW morse code? Why do you force your
personal desires on all newcomers? Why can't you live
and let live...allow the ARS to ADVANCE beyond the
"Archaic Radiotelegraphy Society?"