RadioBanter - View Single Post

April 18th 05, 06:15 PM

wrote:
From: on Sun,Apr 17 2005 9:29 am
wrote:
From: on Sat,Apr 16 2005 8:44 am

How does that tie in with the use of morse code in
museum windows?

The same way your service at ADA ties in with amateur radio policy.

"My service at ADA" was NOT ever presented as any
form of "justification" about "amateur radio policy."

So why tell us about it so many times? It was interesting
the first couple of dozen times, but not any more.

In fact, why tell us about it at all, since there's no
connection to amateur radio policy?

What I originally presented was factual information
based on personal experience in regards to USE OF
MORSE CODE by a large Army communications station.

But why? That has nothing to do with amateur radio policy.
You said yourself that amateur radio isn't the US military.

Army station ADA (it still exists, by the way) USE OF
MORSE CODE MODE was nil, none, nada from 1953 onwards.

Even *if* that is true - so what?

World War II ended in 1945.

And Morse Code was used by the US military in WW2, wasn't it?

Further, I stated that (based on Pacific Stars & Strips
published story of 1955) ADA relayed 220 thousand
messages a month in 1955. ADA (also known by the
TTY message identifier of "RUAP") was only the third
largest Army station in ACAN (Army Command and
Administrative Network). Such traffic operation took
place around the clock, every day ("24/7").

But why?

Further, I stated (correctly, from Army documents)
that the ONLY morse code operator training in the
1950s was for Field Radio Operator.

Operator training and use aren't the same thing.

Field Radio is
exemplified by operations of Regimental-level
AN/GRC-26 self-contained transmitter-receiver huts
on the bed of a 2 1/2 ton truck. "Angry-26s"
were in use at much lower traffic levels, by unit
command, and also used TTY much more than any morse
code...in Korea, in Japan, or anywhere else in the
Far East Command in the early 1950s. Field radio
did not normally communicate with Far East Command
Headquarters directly, but had the capability.
Such was never witnessed by myself, nor appeared
in any operations orders of the station.

So you really are just going on the words of others.

The brunt of military messaging is done by the
(relatively, speaking in 1950s terms) high-speed
TTY that can carry message traffic 24/7.

Morse can carry message traffic "24/7", Len. You can't.

All of
that constituted the NORMAL means of logistical
communications...all of that necessary for troop
movements, shipping of supplies, operational
orders, etc., etc., etc.

Sure. And they used HF radio because other means
weren't available or were inadequate.

The total personnel
and installations in the Far East Command then
was akin to a small state, therefore the amount
of communications was quite large.

And the number of personnel assigned to the communications
was quite large, too, wasn't it? Not just you but more than
700 people at ADA alone, wasn't it?

At NO TIME
was any bank of morse code operators seen OR
KNOWN serving either the FEC Hq or Army Central
Command ("central" insofar as Japan).

"seen or known" by whom?

Did I
"know" all that? Yes. It was part of my duty
there to not only be at a part of the
communications station but to make trips to
nearby units. Do I have absolute proof of all
of it by referencible documents? No. Only some.

So you don't really know from personal experience. Besides,
as you have said, the non-existence of something cannot be
completely proved.

Am I "lying" in stating any of the above? No.
There is NO reason for me to "lie" about anything
there.

Sure there's a reason. Several, actually. But I've never
accused anyone here of lying. Not even you. I've pointed
out mistakes, but that's a different thing entirely. A
lie is intentional, a mistake isn't.

There is no reason for N2JTV to say
anything about it, yet Gene was there at the same
time I was, the same station but on a different
operating team. [Gene doesn't access this group]

Do you call him "Genie" or some other insulting nickname,
Len? Or just "Gene" or "N2JTV"?

The gist of all that is that: MORSE CODE WAS NOT
IN USE FOR MAJOR COMMUNICATIONS TRAFFIC. Not in
The Far East Command at the time. That Command
included USAF and USN.

Even if that's true - so what? The Far East Command wasn't
amateur radio.

And it seems that you are hyper focused on "MAJOR COMMUNICATIONS
TRAFFIC" as if nothing else matters.

I've seen documents that stated the communications
plans from 1948 onwards would handle ALL normal
message traffic by TTY for the future. I do not
have such a document to "prove" it but can state
that, from 1953 onwards, it WAS TRUE by example,
by all operational orders between 1953 and 1956,
by various Army documents published since 1956,
by various Signal Corps photographs (none of
which show any morse code operators at work) in
the Far East Command.

Even if that's all true - and you could be mistaken about
it, but let's not go there right now - what possible connection
does that have to amateur radio policy in 2005?

Was there ANY morse code used in the U.S. military?
Of course.

FINALLY!!

Len admits the US military actually used Morse Code!

Next thing we'll see is the sun coming up in the west ;-)

All in Battalion or smaller units for
field radio in the Army...on board ship in what
Hans Brakob describes as "small boys" such as
DDs (destroyers) or lesser-tonnage vessels.

How about submarines?

Did you know that approximately half of all Japanese ships sunk
in WW2 were sunk by US submarines - a force that was only a very
small part of the US Navy at the time? Subs also sent back vital
information from Japanese-controlled areas (such as weather and
enemy task force movements). Also rescued downed airmen and aviators,
placed and retrieved covert operatives.

You can look all this up. I don't think US Navy submarines had teletype
aboard in WW2.

Morse
code skill was required by some airborne radio
units (ASW and the like) and for aircraft on long,
over-water flights...also for the (then) Distress
and Safety (international) frequencies shared by
everyone.

How about that!

I do not have any specific cites of
morse code use by SAC units of the 50s or 60s, but
TAC does not include it. Long over-water flights
my USAF military transports required morsemen on
board.

You mean "radio operators skilled in the use of Morse Code"

What you have to understand is that the
cruiser or heavier class ships had carried RTTY
since first starting with that in 1940.

All of them? Why do I "have to" understand that?

That was
necessary to insure the secure "rotor machine"
encryption terminals (on-line or off-line capable)
for Command orders and responses.

But other USN ships were able to communicate securely
without RTTY.

Regardless of
nit-picking on the names of such systems or their
absolute, exact nomenclature,

You mean you were mistaken in your earlier posts, as
corrected by K0HB.

their existance was
acknowledged in at least two civilian books first
published in the 1960s (David Kahn's "Codebreakers"
was on the NYT non-fiction bestseller list for
several months, a seminal text on history of
cryptography).

Hams aren't allowed to encrypt their transmissions. Against
the rules. "Encrypt" meaning "to conceal the meaning".

Morse code use in small-unit radio decreased and
decreased from the 1950s onward. All branches,
even the USCG.

Nobody disputes that. Yet even in the 1990s it was in use,
and there were maritime rescues dependent on it. SOLAS and
all that.

TTY rates jumped from 60 WPM to
100 WPM,

Hardly a "jump", Len. More like a slide.

then morphed into "data" in various
forms at rates up to 2400 WPM over HF radio links.
By 1978 the USAF (one of the remaining strong users
of HF) was shutting down HF as a spectrum component
in favor of the new satellite relay and
troposcatter, VHF and UHF (they'd had the 225-400
MHz "military aviation band" since shortly after
WW2).

How does this have anything to do with amateur radio policy? All
amateur radio privileges above 30 MHz are available without a
code test.

By then the sole use of morse code was
limited to emergency communications as a secondary.

Even if true...so what?

It MAY have been used for ALERT messaging of
submarines but another (with actual experience of
such communications) will have to give details.

Why, Len? You give all sorts of details on things you have
no experience with...

By the 1980s, the ALERT messaging to boomers and
sharks was done by some form of encrypted DATA.
As to the SAC messaging on "oil burner routes" or
otherwise on loitering flights, I can't comment
on those formats or content other than to say
morse code was NOT used for those.

Even if that's true.....

So, there has been a lessening NEED for any
"trained morsemen" in the U.S. military over the
past HALF CENTURY.

Did the military call them "trained morsemen", Len? Or
something else, like "Radioman First Class"? (Rm1C)?

It has VANISHED for use in
actual communications in the military...since
the International Distress and Safesty system
was implemented a few years ago worldwide, the
USCG has stopped monitoring 500 KHz.

Because they don't have to, anymore.

Did you know that a new Morse shore station was just licensed to
operate on 600 meters (500 kHz) and HF maritime frequencies? Call
is KSM.

The military
has had MILLIONS of U.S. citizens in service in
all that time, still has a million-plus serving.
Morse code use in the military is limited solely
to INTELLIGENCE INTERCEPTS (one-way, "silent
listening").

Even if that's true....

GONE is the NEED for "trained morsemen" of any
kind by the United States government.

Who ever said there was such a need in modern times, Len?
Not me.

There is
NO NEED of any sort of "trained pool" of such
morsemen for the national use.

Who ever said there was?

That lessening
began about 57 years ago although it was already
happening during WW2 when HF commercial SSB was
carrying TTY messaging to Europe and Asia.

Here's a clue, Len:

The FCC, in Part 97, mentions the need for a pool of trained
skilled radio operators or some similar verbiage. You can
look up the exact words if you're so inclined. The key point
is that one of the Basis and Purpose of the Amateur Radio
Service is to have such a pool of radio operators. Doesn't say
anything about "morsemen". And it never has - the Basis and
Purpose were first put there in 1951, and the phrase has always
referred to "skilled radio operators" with no mention of Morse
Code.

What is left is a lot of daydreaming by amateurs
based on myths begun in WW2 of glorious use of
morse "in battle zones" or as the valiant radio
operators of B-17s and B-24s (actually more
gunners than radio operators) and "fighting men"
in ship radio rooms, etc.

What "myths", Len? Were you there?

Have you ever been in a B-17, B-24 or B-29?

Generations of day-
dreaming amateurs passed them on to succeeding
generations until the mythos became almost
palpable.

So you're saying Morse Code wasn't used in WW2 for
anything important, huh?

The only radio service in the USA
that requires morsemanship skills is Amateur
Radio Service and that ONLY for privileges below
30 MHz.

And that's perfectly reasonable because hams *do* use
Morse Code - particularly below 30 MHz.

Seems to me your whole argument comes down to the idea
that since the US military doesn't use Morse Code much
if at all anymore, hams shouldn't use it either, nor
have a test for it.

All that verbiage of yours, summed up in one sentence.

When it comes to "handling traffic" on HF, *NO*
amateur radio group or net can come even close
to the amount handled by the third-largest radio
communications station of the Army did a half
century ago.

Sure we can. 700 amateurs, each with PSK-31 or some other
modern data mode, 10 messages per day each. Do it for a month
and there's 220,000 messages.

But is size all that impresses you, Len? Seems like it.

Not even if you use mulltipliers
to make up for the (usually specious) claim that
amateurs "use only their own purchased equipment."

What "specious claim", Len? It's a fact - almost all
hams have to buy/build and maintain their own equipment.
Not like the military, where Uncle pays for everything.

Sure, a few hams have access to club or other stations
funded by others. But they're the exception that proves
the rule.

Further, amateurs do NOT do it 24/7 for months
on end, "CW" or not.

Neither do you, Len. Nor did you, at ADA or anywhere
else. 700 plus personnel, remember?

You are getting very tiresome on this petulant
complaint about one other radio activity on
HF or bitching about someone who was there.

The main petulance and bitching are yours, Len,
repeating the same story over and over and over, as
if it is somehow relevant. It isn't.

Put an end to it.

Are you telling me to shut up, Len? Seems like it.

You rail on about the First Amendment but then tell others
to shut up. Double standard of the worst kind. I've never
told you or anyone else here to shut up...

All your petulant whining
about the glory and efficacy of morse code is
of NO value in the whole wide world of radio
communications today.

What "petulant whining", Len? Show us an example.

And the fact is, Morse Code is of great "value in
the whole wide world of radio communications today"
- because that includes Amateur Radio.

Or do you exclude Amateur Radio?

Aren't we hams big enough to count?

All you have left is the
mythology of "greatness in morsemanship" to
rationalize keeping the morse code test for a
HOBBY use of radio by amateur radio hobbyists.

No mythology, Len. Fact.