On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 11:18:59 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote in :

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 21:27:16 -0700, Frank Gilliland
wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jun 2005 08:59:32 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote in :

big snip
The price of -any- product relies upon the laws of supply and demand.

That's true to an extent.


No, that's true for any product or service. That's why they are call
the LAWS of supply and demand.


If you have a hammer made in China and a hammer made in the USA, the
price is going to be the same because the market dictates the price.

Right, and when a hammer can be made cheaper in China, it forces the
American company to lower its price (Often resulting in sharp
reductions in overhead to keep a reasonable profit margin). At some
point the American company will no longer be able to compete.


Hence the success of Wally World.

Thank you for conceding my point. And with a perfect example.


And to expand further on your point, you left out the part about the
reduction of average income of American workers as a result of lost
jobs, thereby reducing overall spending in the economy (-including-
the sales of cheap imported products), shifting more people into the
no-tax bracket and -increasing- the tax burden on everyone else. So
before you whine yet again about paying someone else's share of the
tax burden, take a look at where you shop.


The
price is set by the lowest price that someone is will to sell it for.


Wrong. It's set, as I stated before, by the laws of supply and demand.

That's too overly simplistic.


Not according to Friedman, Lindahl, Svennilsson, Myrdal, Ohlin,
Lundberg, etc, etc. But if -you- say so then it must be true.


Yes, what something is worth, is what
someone is willing to pay for it. And what someone is willing to pay
for depends on need (or the perception of "need"), and how available
the product is.

Now, forces of positive demand tend to force the price up, while the
forces of positive supply tend to force the price down. Competition,
acts to augment supply and therefore has a downward effect on price.
The company who sets the lowest price, is the one that the others must
match in order to remain competitive.


Gee, I guess that explains why there is such a variation in gas prices
in every town -- even within the same neighborhoods.


Just because the curves intersect at one point doesn't mean the price
is fixed -- there are variations in supply -and- demand based on a
number of factors such as quality, geography, culture, perception.....
or the tactic used by some companies to flood the market with cheap
products in order to drive the competition out of business (which is
why our cars run on gasoline instead of alcohol).

No, our cars run on gasoline because the amount of energy used to
produce alcohol exceed the energy output of the finished product. As
a result, it costs more to make alcohol than we could sell it for.


Wrong again, Dave. The recommended fuel for the Model T was alcohol,
and that's what automobiles were built to use back in the early years
of their history. And it was great because there were a whole bunch of
backyard stills that were pumping out gallon after gallon of good ol'
moonshine. But along came a big foreign oil company that decided to
take a risk by dumping cheap gasoline on the market (at a net loss), a
move which shut down the stills and convinced auto manufacturers to
build their engines to run only on gasoline. Afterwards they pushed
the gas prices up, and the oil companies not only recovered their
losses but established a dominance of the market. -That's- why our
cars burn gasoline, and -that's- why we are paying so much at the
pump.

If, back in the early 1900's, the alcohol producers were able to stay
in business (in a fair and competitive market, protected by import
tariffs) they most likely would have developed the technology to
produce much cheaper alcohol, technology that is only -now- being
developed. We now know that fuel-grade ethanol can be produced cheaply
on a large scale using specially developed yeasts & enzymes and vacuum
distillation, but there are no 'refineries' large enough to make it
profitably. Also, alcohol comes from vegetable bio-mass, meaning the
energy in alcohol comes from the sun which is both renewable and
virtually inexhaustible. Now the US is one of the most agricultrually
efficient countries in the world; if the demand was there it wouldn't
take long to develop new types of corn or sugar beets (or some other
crop) specifically bred for high-yield alcohol production. All this
could have happened within the past eighty years had it not been for
unfair import trade practices in the early 1900's. But it didn't, and
now -we- have to pay for the mistakes made by the government all those
years ago.

Now are you so nearsighted that you can't see what's going to happen
to our progeny in the future just because you want to save a couple
bucks by buying a cheap Chinese toilet-paper dispenser? Or do you
-like- the idea that -we- are actually helping China become the next
globally-dominant economic superpower?

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. I learned
my history, Dave. You need to go back to school.


That is why competition is so important for a free market economy. If
there is only one source for a popular product, they can set
practically any price, and if a consumer wants it bad enough, they'll
cough up the money.


That still follows the laws of supply and demand.

No kidding.


Look as gasoline. We all bitch about the high cost
of gasoline. But we still pay it, because we need it.


Gasoline also follows the laws of supply and demand. And here is proof
that you never studied economics -- when the price fluctuates easily
in response to demand then the product is said to be "elastic";
likewise, when the demand remains relatively constant despite the
price, the product is called "inelastic".

How does that prove that I never studies economics? I never stated
otherwise.


You didn't need to -- you demonstrated it with your lack of
understanding on the subject.


Very basic terminology from
Econ 101. And one more thing: the government -loves- to tax any
product that is inelastic because it doesn't affect the demand for the
product. That's why alcohol, tobacco and gasoline are taxed so
heavily.

Oil is both elastic and inelastic depending on circumstances. When
there is a refinery fire, or a terrorist cell takes out an oil field,
or there's a labor strike in Venezuela, and the cost of gasoline goes
up, that is a result of a lowering of the supply relative to demand -
an elastic trait.

On the other hand, when the demand and the supply remain fairly
steady, and the price of oil jumps up because some clown at Goldman
Sachs predicts that oil could hit $100 a barrel, that's an increase
fueled (no pun intended) solely by investor speculation (And creating
a self fulfilling prophecy as a result), which is an inelastic trait.


Wrong again. Oil is inelastic because the -demand- remains constant
-regardless- of the price. If you can't even grasp a simple concept
like price elasticity then you really shouldn't be talking economics.
But I keep forgetting -- you have some intrinsic need to publically
humiliate yourself by demonstrating your ignorance.


big snip
But because of this interference, there
is no longer a free-market economy, and free-market economic models no
longer apply.

No ****. But things like tariffs are also interfering with the free
market. Outsourcing, free and open trade, and elimination of
protectionist tariffs support the free market. If you favor tariffs,
limits on trade, and penalties for outsourcing, then you don't support
a free market.


Import tariffs interfere with a free -international- market,

Hello McFly! We now live in an international GLOBAL market. Get used
to it!


Nations have been trading with each other for thousands of years,
Dave. International economics isn't a new concept. The fact is that
there is, and has always been, both an 'international' economy and a
'domestic' economy (from the perspective of the US border that would
be Macro- and Micro-economics, respectively). For the past century the
international economy has been carried by the US at the expense of the
domestic economy. But now our domestic economy simply can't carry the
financial burden of the planet much longer. It's time to quit handing
out international welfare checks, focus on -our- economy, and let the
other countries either sink or swim on their own merits.


and
that's the intent: when the international market starts to hurt the
domestic market, you establish import tariffs. It's been done for
hundreds of years and it works pretty darn well. And in case you
didn't notice, Toyota has offered to raise the price of their cars so
GM can stay competitive (and in business) in the domestic market. The
reason given was that low import prices hurt the American economy (the
recent GM layoffs) and is therefore bad for US/Japanese relations.
Looks like Japanese industry is looking out for American interests
better than our own government.

No, the Japanese are looking to improve their profits. If they
"voluntarily" raise their prices, then the increased profit goes
directly to Toyota. If they wait until the US government places a
tariff, then difference will go to the US government.

There is nothing altruistic about Toyota's motives, trust me.


Except that they made the announcement with an explanation that opened
the door for the US government to establish import tariffs -without-
Japanese retaliation. That takes balls. But of course their motives
are not altruistic because if GM moves it's plants to a country with
cheaper labor then it threatens to become more competitive, something
Toyota doesn't want. They also understand that the auto industry is
big business in the US, so if the industry goes under then our economy
suffers, and consequently so do the sales of -their- products in the
US. -They- know it's financially responsible to keep a trade balance.
But for some reason the Bush administration would rather let Japanese
car makers control the US economy instead of doing it themselves.


I'll make this as simple as I can: If a country outsources almost all
it's industry (like the US has done in the past 25 years) then you no
longer have an industry-based economy. With the loss of industry we
have been reverting to a service-based economy. Now the -service- jobs
are being outsourced as well. So what's the next rung down on the
ladder, Dave?

Intellectual property, information, management, and entertainment
content providers.


Salvage -- a nation with an economy that's based on
scrounging through our garbage piles for resale to, ironically, the
now industrialized nations that only a few decades ago were called
'third-world countries'. And that change is already happening. The US
is literally exporting it's garbage to foreign countries to be
recycled into the raw materials for -their- industries.

Frank, there are no shortage of demand for doctors, lawyers,
plumbers, carpenters, auto repair technicians, shippers, consumer
goods, and yes, even bartenders.


Gee, I seem to recall saying -something- about how we have turned into
a service-based economy.....hmmm, now where did I say that....?


But you think I should go back to school. I don't know why since I
earned a 3.9 in both Micro- and Macro-Economics.

So you say, as you mix drinks for a living, Mr. Underachiever.


You're just jealous. Don't worry, you'll get over it..... when you
finally find a job.


At what school did
-you- learn economics, Dave? "Internet University"?

The same one that taught me engineering. The one that I'm not going to
tell you about, no matter how many times you beg.


Your claim will therefore be filed with all your other claims based on
anonymous sources -- in the trash.


Speaking of policy, when do you suppose Bush is going to make good on
his promise to unite the parties and do away with partisan politics?

I suppose it has a lot to do with the democrats opposing anything that
a republican does. It's a two way street. The democrats are obligated
to be uniters as well. But like you can lead a horse to water but not
make him drink, we can sit politicians into a room, but we can't make
them cooperate. They have to do that on their own. And with nutcases
like Howard Dean trashing republicans in public speeches, it's doing
nothing more than driving a wedge into the crack.


So it's the Democrats fault that Bush can't overcome partisan
politics? ROTFLMMFAO!!!!!

It certainly is to a large degree. Listen to the things that Howard
Dean is spewing as of late. He is the embodiment for the typical
liberal wing of the democratic party and their viewpoint as to anyone
who does not share their ideological vision.

The media is full of terse, shrill, and just plain adolescent level
rhetoric from the democratic side of the aisle. It's one thing to
disagree with someone ideologically. But to impugn someone's character
with the venom and vitriol that leading democrats have used in the
last 5 years is counterproductive and contemptible. They don't want to
compromise. They want it their way, and their way only. Consequently,
they can't understand why the majority of Americans have become
disillusioned with them as a party.


You don't get it, Dave -- Bush claimed he would overcome partisan
politics but blames the Democrats because he can't. That's like a car
mechanic saying that he can fix an engine, but then complains that he
can't fix it because it's broke. What an idiot! (And BTW, that was an
analogy, not a metaphor.)


snip
But since you cannot provide substance for your claims, allow me to
provide it for mine:

http://web.infoweb.ne.jp/fairtradec/new/b031107.pdf

This report outlines, among other things, what happens when a global
organization, such as the WTO, reacts negatively to what they perceive
as "protectionist" tactics such as tariffs. So tell me again how I am
"wrong" about potential retaliation for any tariffs we may place on
foreign made goods.


Sure. Go to college and take Macro- and Micro-Economics. And since you
are so gullible, try to avoid those neocon and WTO proxy websites.

So you deny that the EU was about to pass retaliatory measures to
counter the steel tariffs? You refuse to acknowledge the influence of
the WTO on global business practices? Are you one of those slackers
who was protesting the WTO in Seattle the other year, when all that
violence occurred?

Facts only please.


One fact is that too much free international trade hurts the domestic
economy. Another fact is that the US isn't subject to the laws of the
WTO or NAFTA.

True. But are you willing to bet on our survival in the global market
against the combined interests of the rest of the industrialized
world?


Where, in any of my ramblings, did I ever suggest that the US should
economically isolate itself from the rest of the planet? I didn't. You
have to strike a balance between international and domestic economics,
which right now is horribly unbalanced. One strong indicator that
would show if things are improving would be a reduction (or complete
neutralization) of the trade deficit. But that isn't happening -- on
the contrary, the trade deficit just keeps getting bigger. That's bad
economics, Dave.


We can pull out just like Bush pulled out of the Kyoto
accord. And another fact is that if the US pulls out of the WTO or
NAFTA then there will -still- be international trade for the simple
reason that the US has money and foreign companies want it.

Are you so sure about that?


Yep.


What do we make that they can't? (and
cheaper).


Not 'cheaper', Dave -- just economically competitive.


And what happens when we can no longer import oil? Are you
willing to drag this country down to the brink of economic depression
in order to restart it as it was 50 years ago?


Say what? 50 years ago the US was at the height of an economic boom.


And yet
-another- fact is that you have an extremely limited understanding of
economics.

No, I see the global picture. You're still living with a 1950's view
of the world and the dynamics of the global marketplace.


Money is money, people are people, and economics has been a functional
part of civilization for as long as there have been both people and
money. If you think that you have any better view on economics than
what has been learned in the past few thousand years then by all means
run for president.


snip
I guess that's why Mercedes, Jags and BMW's sell so well, huh? Didn't
you learn anything in our discussion about how a quality education is
often preferred over a lesser degree? If you did, what part of your
brain is unable to apply the underlying concept to other situations?

So you posit that a Ford is on equal standing, quality wise, with a
Mercedes? People will sometimes pay more for something if they
perceive a greater value for it.


Oh, you mean like if an employer sees a greater value in a better
education?

Not the same thing.


It's -EXACTLY- the same thing.

No, it's not.


A Mercedes earned it's pedigree and reputation and
that pedigree and name recognition is worth money alone. On the other
hand, if you went to a 4 year school, over a 2 year school, unless you
worse a shirt that said "I went to a 4 years college, hire me", you
would have to prove your pedigree. I agree that the intrinsic value is
there. But the public perception isn't necessarily there as well.


First, look up the word 'pedigree'.

No need.


Yet you did at my prompting.


My usage is consistent with the definition to the extent that
a company's "lineage" as applied to Mercedes Benz, can be compared to
someone's "lineage" in academic achievements.


LOL! Spin away, Dave!


But if you prefer a
different word, I can accommodate. How about "Prestige"? Or
"Prominence"?


Let's see if either of those words work:

"....unless you worse a shirt that said "I went to a 4 years college,
hire me", you would have to prove your prestige."

"....unless you worse a shirt that said "I went to a 4 years college,
hire me", you would have to prove your prominence."

Naw, they just don't sound right. Try again, Dave. Even better, try
using the right word the first time.


Second, I can communicate my credentials (not my 'pedigrees') to a
potential employer with my resume.

Yes, you can.


Nuff said.


But until you do, they have no way of knowing. YOU have
to sell yourself. A Mercedes Benz, on the other hand, sells by itself
due to their established reputation and company pedigree.


Third, public perception only matters if the public is doing the
hiring, such as making a choice between Bush or Kerry (both of whom
had ****ty grades in college, a fact which has been ignored by the
press until just just recently for whatever reason).

Yet the image, and perception by many, was that Kerry was an
"intellectual", while Bush was a "country bumpkin". Yet Bush actually
advanced further in college.

That example outlines perfectly the effect that perception has on
altering the truth.


And once again you missed the point: If I was being hired by the
public then I might care if people know I have a better education than
'the other guy'. But I'm not running for office. The only person that
has any need or desire to know my credentials is any prospective
employer that would already have my resume.


Fourth, many academic institutions have reputations (not 'pedigrees')
that speak to the benefit of the graduate. A graduate from Cal-Tech
has a much better chance at getting hired than someone who passed a
correspondence course advertised in a magazine.

Yes, and another case of perception. Someone from Harvard, or MIT,
would be assumed to have been better educated than someone from a
state college. Even though this perception does not address how the
individual did at those respective schools. Some could call this
"perception prejudice"......


You're a kick, Dave -- you just shot down your own argument!!!


So what's the name of that tech school you claim to have attended,
Dave?

N.O.Y.F. Business University.


Why not just admit the fact that you never attended -any- tech school
or college? You're about the same age as me, but you still haven't
learned that honesty is more credible than self-aggrandizing lies?
That's why I have credibility and you don't -- I freely admit that I
graduated from a state university and not Cal-Tech; that I work as a
bartender and no longer as an EE at a radio station (and even that I
was unemployed for a while); that I don't make gobs of money or have
more time on my hands than someone who claims to have a family and a
high-paying job. I even admit that I'm fat (although I'm now down to
225, which is a significant improvement from last year -- mowing lawns
not only helps with the bills but also with the health!).

Yet you, Dave the Braggart, whose name and address are public
information that's readily accessible on the internet, can't even
admit where you went to tech school. Ok, Dave, whatever you say.


snip
US/UK ownership and control of Iraq's oil prior to Saddam (Iraqi Oil
Company, later known as Shell Oil) is well documented.

Yea, so?

Try Funk &
Wagnall's. The fact that Saddam reclaimed Iraq's oil was not only
documented by Western civilization but used as propaganda by Saddam.
He even tried to reclaim oil fields that were stolen from Iraq by
international charter long before Saddam took power (see Funk &
Wagnall's for the history of Kuwait).

So you are now attempting to justify Saddam's invasion of Kuwait in
1990?


Is that what I said?

It's what you implied. LIke Saddam was only trying to reclaim what was
rightfully his, when he invaded a sovereign country for no legitimate
reason.


I implied nothing. What I stated was the reason Iraq invaded Kuwait. I
referenced Funk & Wagnalls, but I'm sure even the internet has a
verbose history of the origins of country. So what's the excuse for
your ignorance -this- time?


Only one month after the US
invasion, Philip Carroll, the former CEO of Shell Oil USA, took
control of Iraq's oil production for the US Government.

Temporarily.

By January
2004, a "state-owned" oil company was created by James Baker (former
Secretary of State, now an attorney representing Exxon-Mobil) that
favoured the US oil industry. Shell Oil (as well as several other US
oil companies) quickly established exclusive contracts with this new
Iraqi oil company.

This is an interim arrangement and only supposed to be in place until
the Iraqi government becomes stable enough to take over for
themselves.


The contracts are both long-term and binding on Iraq, regardless of
what name they call the company or who runs it. You are clearly out of
the loop on this issue, Dave.

And I suppose you have access to those actual contracts, and not just
the hearsay opinion of some New York Times (or similar) reporter?


Or maybe the Wall Street Journal? But I suppose you think that's just
another branch of the left-wing radically liberal news media, huh?







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