From: Michael Coslo on Wed 14 Sep 2005 16:23


Dave wrote:
wrote in message
Michael Coslo wrote:
wrote:
Michael Coslo wrote:


it seems like the key is that there is no bridge between the various
agencies that can coordinate the activities. the red herring is that their
radios can't talk to each other.

Yup. It is a function of bandwidth, distance, congestion and other
stuff like that.

Disagree. It is PLANNING AHEAD for contingencies. Case in point
is the so-called "Tactical" channels used by the LAPD. Normal
operation of radio units uses a common working frequency. Where
more than one group of radio units need to work together, they use
a "TAC" (for tactical) channel that is preassigned...such as "TAC
ONE" or "TAC TWO." LAPD has the planning on what to do if a base
station is suddenly inoperative. The same goes for the LAFD.

In the workload of public safety radio services, they are NOT
playing radio games or "working weak signals" or the other
radio-only activities done by amateurs. They have their regular
duties NOT involving playing with radios.


what would appear to be needed is a way for fema, national guard, coast
guard, etc to get coordinated with the local authorities... and to do that
there are really 2 or 3 levels of coordination needed:

There is a way. Exists right now. The problem in this particular
disaster is that the emergency services lagged way behind the disaster.

PLANNING AHEAD sometimes lags behind...but that is NOT due to
the alleged "lack of spectrum" as a reporter wrote.

With NO fall-back on contingency planning the agencies fall down.

That's an ORGANIZATIONAL PLANNING thing, something to be done way
ahead of time. A small part of that is radio use. If worst comes
to absolute worst, "communications" can be effected by runners
(couriers, hand-carrying messages between operations bases as was
done in ancient military times)...individuals who carry messages
by hand or by mind or whatever to keep the bases in touch.

Let's look at what was observed and uncovered by news services
about New Orleans. That city has been on the edge of the Gulf
of Mexico for well over a century and has expanded such that
over half of it is BELOW sea level, BELOW lake level. They
depend on a dozen-plus huge pumps to continuously drain the
city. Do they have a fall-back plan in case of pump failure
or levee breach? Doesn't seem so. Centralized communications
bases with no secondary bases planned, not enough some small
boats to get around, not enough "high-rise" vehicles to get
through shallow flooded areas. No interconnecting streets
from above sea level areas to other above sea level areas...or
dedicated communications lines that would be above sea level.

Anyone who has looked at TV news coverage should have seen
dozens and dozens of big yellow school busses sitting in a
flooded motor pool (apt name, "motor pool") EMPTY and unused.
"High rise" types which have greater-than-average-vehicle road
clearance and could have gotten through for evacuation before
the flooding was complete. UNUSED in the one-day pre-storm
evacuation order issued by the Mayor. Each of those school
busses would have been more than adequate to hold portable
radio base stations with operators after transporting evacuees
to higher ground.


The problem as I see it is that the radio comms are kind of like a
swimming duck. Above the water line there is not a lot of stuff going
on. Below the line is all kinds of activity.

What in the world are you trying to say there?


Are the emergency organizations going to employ pay and train competent
radio operators who are capable of figuring out where they need to be
frequency wise? I doubt it. If so, I wanna apply for that job.

You want to be in a group that was inept at planning ahead?

Clue: MANAGEMENT of a city is SUPPOSED to do that PLANNING AHEAD
(of some sort) to handle emergency contingencies. It is NOT "up
to the 'radio operators' to seek out 'new operating locales.'"


In this group, we've discussed the contesting issue, in which others
and myself have claimed that it is practice for emergency operations.
One regular poster in particular heaps a lot of scorn on those who
believe it is practice. But it is.

"Scorn?" No. IMPROPER ANALOGUES, yes. Have YOU EVER worked in
any sudden emergency situation? Explain how that is "comparable"
to radio contesting.

These operators would have to be frequency agile, as well as know what
frequency that they should use in a given situation. They need to be
able to copy weak signals, and be patient.

No, those operators MUST KNOW THEIR LAND TERRITORY and ORGANIZATION
of all the First Responders. They MUST KNOW and be ABLE TO
IMPROVISE IMMEDIATELY if part of that pre-esisting organization
becomes incommunicative or inoperable or cut off by such things as
impassible roadways.

A sudden emergency/disaster condition involves LIFE and DEATH.
NO radio contact contest is about life and death.

But I can just about wager a months salary that whatever "new" system
we end up with, it will be heavily infrastructure dependent, and
designed so that someone who knows nothing about radio and electronics
will just mash their PTT button. And it will work perfectly in drills.
And it will fail miserably when the "big one" hits it.

Make your one month salary amount payable to the American Red Cross.
You lost BIG TIME. I'll just cite a near-"big one" incident that
happened 11 1/2 years ago...precisely at a little past 4:30 AM on
17 January 1994. The Northridge Earthquake. TOTAL primary
electrical power failure for 10 million residents. Several building
collapses. 53 died directly. One natural gas distribution main line
fractured and on fire. Some freeway overpasses collapsed, blocking
all vehicles there.

The Emergency Communications Center for Greater Los Angeles was
functional, ramping up as more and more personnel arrived. PDs had
emergency electrical power for base stations, as did FDs. FDs were
alerted and informed through leased telephone lines that did NOT go
through telephone switching centers, thus remaining open, working.
LAFD was rolling on many fires, one I could see from my high back
yard vantage point (hard to miss against total blackness). Even
the utilities were equipped with emergency power. Mobiles kept on
working and rolling; one LAPD vehicle went face down a collapsed
overpass when unable to stop in time. Utility workers were called
up on the infrastructure telephone system, told were to report for
work. The infrastructure communications system WORKED and the First
Responders responded and started on their enormous work load, all
by just "mashing their PTT buttons" and communicating.

Then the hams with their "old technology" will come out of the woodwork
again.

They did NOT do so here 11 1/2 years ago. This terrible infra-
structure that was supposed to "fail" did NOT fail.

Yes, NORMAL telephone service was bogged down AT FIRST by panic.
That settled down. Utilities could call through their leased
lines OUT to workers; that plan was in place and working. There
was adequate EM spectrum allocation for all concerned to do
First Responding. PLANNING and drilling and ORGANIZATION done
well before the event tied everyone together. The enormity of
the repair workload ahead rather put a damper on "playing with
radios" or "fooling around, tuning a band for new contacts."
There was NO warning, NO time to prepare ahead. For any sudden
emergency event a PLAN - with sufficient drilling and training -
MUST exist beforehand. If radio amateurs are a part of that
plan, fine. They can help. But, such a PLAN must concern the
FIRST RESPONDERS first. THEY are the ones ON THE SCENE first.

Now all you easties can bitch and moan and call names of "six
land" people and all that, but we DO have plans that have been
PROVEN by ACTUAL TEST to WORK. In a sudden emergency with
absolutely NO warning.

The Gulf Coast region had over three days warning to prepare.
Did they have an adequate PLAN of how to handle anything? Ask
them. If you need some ideas on what to do and how to plan,
come west. We've done it and survived. Or maybe you can go to
the storm-ravaged, disaster-prone region south of Hartford and
learn all there is to know to be prepared? Your option.