Telamon wrote:
In article ,
D Peter Maus wrote:

Telamon wrote:
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:

"Telamon" wrote in message
.
..
In article ,
"David Eduardo" wrote:
I'm not aware of any anti-radio luddites, but if I ever meet one,
I'll be sure to remind him to get rid of both his radios and his
internet connection.
As to DXers, I find that most today are very opposed to changes in
radio, whether formatically or technically, and are very negative
towards the way stations operate. I have disassociate myself form DX
organisaions as they almost all seem to be out to change radio to the
detriment of those of us who work in the field.

Since essentially no radio listening, in terms of percentage, is
skywave night listening, the other poings are moot.
Two things:

1. I question the wisdom of dismissing the hobby of dx'ing in this news
group. Sounds to me like you are trolling for trouble.
I sepcifically clarified that it was domestic (NRC and IRCA) MW DXers. For
some reason, they have chosen to attack broadcasting as an industry and
profession. Some even write letters to the FCC questioning the
qualifications of licensees who are doing exactly what the FCC wants:
improving local service.
2. Like I already posted there is plenty of regional and national
commercials on radio so the long distance reception of stations does pay
off. Now you can go ahead and ignore that to continue to support your
wrongheaded assumptions.
I know of less than a dozen stations today that make any money off
skywave,
and out of 13,500 US AM and FM stations, less than 200 show up in ratings
outside their own market area (MSA and embedded metros).
My argument is as follows.

First you must acknowledge that there is a lot (a high percentage) of
regional and national commercials on AMBCB.

Second that many stations (a high percentage) carry network
programming.

Third that it makes no difference to advertisers whether I listen to a
networked program carrying regional and national commercials on AMBCB
on a station that is local or distant. I hear the commercial and can
respond to the 1-800-number or go to the web site and make a purchase
so the advertising does its job either way.

So when I respond to an advertisement who can know what station I heard
it on. Do they just make the assumption that it was a local station?

Actually, yes. There is no mechanism by which they can meaningfully
track skywave impressions to a message. The numbers are so low as to be
statistical zero. So, Arbitron diaries track locally relevant signals.
Out of market signals are not even considered unless listening levels
become statistically significant. And from my experience, when station
manglement has made the trip to actually see the survey diaries
personally, they disregarded out of market listening as 1) erroneous
reporting, or 2) anomalous reception...either of which gets the out of
market station report tossed.

Response to adverisements happens on multiple levels. Your perception
of response through sales is correct, but incomplete. Advertisers, and
advertising agencies use complex, and sometimes medium/source specific,
methods to track advertising. This may be as simple as: "Tell 'em Peter
sent you".....to as complex as logged IP addresses connecting to
referenced web pages, and tracking cookies. Encoded coupons with
tracking data that's correlated to credit card data at POP. Or multiple
toll free numbers...one used for each station on the buy. (I was even
involved in a campaign where we had a separate toll free number for each
daypart at each station...each number active in the local ADI. Out of
market responses could not connect to the toll free numbers.) In all
cases of my direct experience, less than 10 total out of market
reception reports came in. All of them were disregarded as either
anomalous and of no consequence, or erroneous and of no value.

There have been isolated cases, however, of non local advertisers
buying a station specifically for its reach. In the 60's a motorcycle
shop in Tennessee bought WLS, ran only between sunset and sunrise, and
did surprisingly well. This went on for years. In the 70's I remember
buying tape decks and other components from Playback, in Chicago, in
response to advertisements I heard on WLS. I was living in Iowa at the
time. First comment, each transaction: "You're in Radio, aren't you?"
Apparently, a lot of disc jockeys bought their stereo gear from Playback
in response to the spots on WLS. Radio people do NOT get listening
credit either in advertising tracking data, or Arbitron.

I remember in high school...WLS overtook KXOK at night among
highschoolers in North St Louis County. But advertising had little
effect on that listener base. National advertising that generated sales
did so locally. And it was assumed that KXOK, later KSLQ, and KSHE,
running the same spots, were responsible.

And we all at one time or another listened to Beaker street on KAAY.
Though I don't recall any out of market advertising.

KMOX, St Louis also ran spots for out of market advertisers, with
similar success to WLS about this time. But, again these were unusual
circumstances. And eventually, as skywave listening declined, the
practice stopped. In each case, though, these were local advertisers
making their own decisions. Today, no agency would make such a buy. Even
though the commissions could be considerably higher on a highly rated
major market station.

Network programming...yes many stations carry it. But usually, a
station can locally be found to carry the program of interest. And its
advertising. In cases where a local affiliate can't be found, out of
market listening is not a consideration. And again, there is no
effective way of tracking it. Nor any compelling motivation to make the
effort for a statistical zero. Not that it doesn't happen. But
statistically, it's below the noise floor.

So, there is no real motivation to consider the DX audience. Fringe,
yes, or maybe. Skywave, no. Because there is no significance to the
advertising effectiveness of skywave listening--there's no money in it.

If there were a dollar to be made....believe me Radio would claw each
other's eyes out to snap it up, and do whatever it takes to generate it.

But until there is...there's no reason for Radio to give it a first
thought, much less a second.

Well, I guess I'm an odd duck when it comes to radio. I spend most of
my time listening to the out of the market area. I live in Ventura but
listen to stations up and down the coast because they carry programming
I can't get locally. For example on a regular basis I listen to KFI,
KNX and KABC in LA, KOGO in San Diego, KGO in San Francisco, KOH in
Reno Nevada to name just a few. Locally I only listen to KVTA in
Ventura for AMBCB.






Interesting coincidence, that. I was the voice of KVTA for a number
of years.

There is a difference between fringe listening, and out of market
DXing. Fringe listening happens around nearly all large markets. And
where there is a substantial statistically significant signal, there is
actually ratings data collected about the fringe audience. WLS used to
show up when I was programming the station in Decatur. There were only 4
stations native to Decatur, after all. In fact, KSD, St Louis also
showed up in the Decatur book from time to time. Interestingly KMOX did
not, but WGN did also. WBBM has a large downstate following. And also
shows up in the books occasionally.

I worked at a couple of blowtorches down south before returning to
Chicago. It was great experience. And we had coverage in 38 states.
Ownership was very accessible, so there were some very protracted
conversations about how we might turn that reach into something more
than wasted electricity. The primary partner was a jock himself, who
grew up listening to the stations while touring as a swing band
musician, so he understood the concept of out of market listening, and
long distance reach. But neither he, nor the sales staff, which actually
sold baggies of tire air from Bob Will's station wagon could never find
a way to tap the DX audience. No agency wanted to hear it. No local
direct client understood the benefit. Truth is, the numbers said there
wasn't any.

Advertising buys aren't based on such data. The figures are
particularly small. WGN, WLS, WBBM, when they did show up weren't even
also rans compared to the native signals. So, again, if you responded
to a spot on WBBM and made a purchase, it was assumed that WSOY was the
carrier that made the impression.


Consider the Shortwave audience. That's virtually entirely a DX
audience, and numbers can be humongous. BBC was estimating 130 million
cume in 1990. All expense. No return. And no way to contribute to
operating costs with receiver licenses. DRM, and Worldspace, though can
change THAT. Or consider the case of WNYW, Radio New York Worldwide.
IIRC, that was Bonneville. A commercial shortwave station. A CBS
affiliate and they ran a full boat of commercials. With an audience that
spanned two hemispheres. A TREMENDOUS radio station that was as solid
and entertaining to listen to as any ever on the dial. But there was no
way to independently measure the audience. Radio sales at the time
weren't nearly as scientific as the are today, so a buy that was
accompanied by an uptick in local sales could be credited with the gain.
Trouble is that national/international product marketing is the
trickiest of businesses. Products are sold locally. Listening,
especially to shortwave, is scattered over a wide area. Often with only
a few listener impressions in hundreds of square miles. So, purchases in
some regions may require quite the drive to find the product. With many
practical limitations to making the trip. Coca-Cola isn't going to pay
National network rates on a shortwave radio station for a spot that may
produce a sale of one or two cases in South Fox Crotch, Rhodesia. Or
East Weasel Penis Portugal. Getting the name out is one thing. And with
WNYW's reach, getting the name out is certainly a cake walk. But
marketing to actually spur sales would have to be done locally. Starting
with making the product available, and known to the locals en masse.

So, here you have a case of worldwide reach and tremendous audience
potential, but absolutely no way to sell it.

So it is with AMBCB DX. Huge reach, but no way to sell it. So they
don't. Marketing is done locally. With regional or national support, but
the buy is made with direct measurable impressions in mind. And on radio
stations that have local reach in markets where the product is
available. Even national buys are made only when the product is marketed
nationally. No sense paying for reach where product can't be sold. So
there are very few products that are actually advertised nationally.
Many, many more are advertised regionally, and locally, with marketing
presence built up locally. The wider area is only support for the local
marketing effort. Because sales are local.

If I do a spot for Toyota Trucks that runs throughout the Gulf
States, the buy is specifically targeted in markets where there are
active, and participating Toyota Truck dealers. And that's not every
market in a region, surprisingly. And stations are not bought based on
their skywave reach. They're bought based on the local ratings in their
ADI. Because if an impression produces a sale, the truck is going to be
bought locally. The buy may be regional, but the spots are still
targeted for the benefit of local retailers. Local sales. A regional
buy only exists to support the local marketing effort.

So, because reach beyond the fringe has not been demostrated to be of
saleable value, it's not considered a benefit to the advertiser. If it's
not a benefit to the advertiser, it's of no value to the station and
those listeners are orphaned. No one cares if they can hear the station
or not.

A whole block of St Louis Cardinals fans, those ex-pat St Louisans
listening to KMOX's enormous signal for their Red Birds fix, have been
literally cut off from the slip stream by the move of the Cards from
KMOX to KTRS down the dial. KTRS has the second worst signal in the St
Louis area, and the worst night signal since KWK's single site decades
ago. That means thousands of listeners will no longer have the
convenience of a strong signal carrying the game when they want their
Cardinals fix. Both at great distances and right there in the St Louis
area. The solution is to fill the coverage map with local FM's in and
around St Louis and expand the Cardinals network throughout Missouri and
Illinois, Arkansas and, I believe, Iowa. Most of them smaller signals,
most FM. All local. And none of them permitting the reach from Phoenix
to Puxutawney that would put Cardinals fans back within earshot of their
team.

Why did the Cards make this move? Because KTRS made them a
significant offer in increased rights fees, and a 50% interest in the
station. In other words, they abandoned the blowtorch signal for what
they believed were better and more saleable options locally. Because the
huge reach of KMOX was of no saleable value, it wasn't considered. (The
wisdom of selling an inferiour signal against the hired assassins at
KMOX is a discussion for another time.)

While the Cardinals acknowledge that they have fans over the much
wider area, the coverage is only useful if it's saleable. And
advertising buys are local. Based on coverage, and audience in the ADI.
DX is of no saleable interest. Cardinals fans orphaned by the deal have
XM as an option. And the Cardinals have entered into an agreement with
XM for their own outlet on the service. This in addition to MLB's
contract with XM. Why? Because there's money in it. XM is a subscription
service. There is advertising, yes. But the advertising/sales model of
XM/Sirius is still evolving. And with Karmazin in one of the big chairs,
you can bet there will be saleable commodities on both XM and Sirius.
But, for now, again, the issue for the Cards is not reach. But
subscription royalties. In other words, revenue.









I listen to AMBCB for similar reasons as I listen to short wave, news
and information. Short wave is a larger scope of world events.

If I want music in the car its classical music on one of several public
service stations or the one commercial station in LA, KMZT FM 105.1.

Usually I hear on the national advertising that the show host has you
enter their name on a web page or tell the phone operator their name
when placing an order so you get a special discount or extra.



That's part of the tracking strategy. And it's not just national. A
lot of the stations here refer to webpages where a listener clicks on
the 'radio' icon and enters the name of the host, as well.


The list of stuff I hear advertised on AMBCB nationally is nearly
endless as I listen to several syndicated talk show host programs. This
is the majority of my AMBCB listening. The exception would be KNX,
which is news/talk/weather most of the time. They have some local
programming at times but I don't listen to it.

So that me spending most of my AMBCB listening time to syndicated
national talk/news/business information radio with a good percentage of
commercials broadcast to the national audience and the rest local
injected by the station to which I'm currently listening.

Usually I can get a syndicated program on several stations and I pick
the one that has the least annoying local commercials. Kind of a funny
reason to determine which station I listen too. On KVTA there is local
jewelry dealer and a BMW dealer whose commercials I just can't stand at
all so I'll switch to another more distant station to hear the same
program.



Careful...now you're affecting MY revenue stream.