Zoran Brlecic said :

Not everyone is a top notch operator and subsequently the
level of the dx-ped operation varies. But so what? If dxing meant that
all the entities were available on request all the time, no one would be
interested.

I'm not saying we should always have 10 or 15 major operations going
at any one time, but I am asking that in the future, when DXpedition
planners are planning something big to an entity only up every decade
or more, that they please put some of their energy into making a
schedule that will permit NA, EU and JA (the three principal targets
of any major operation) a good chance to work them on every possible
band they operate on. Sometimes it's impossible (never in darkness at
the same time as a target, MUF well below 24 MHz, etc), and that's the
way it goes, but if it's possible, please try to plan the best times,
and keep to those objectives.

Second, even if the operation was in violation of all its objectives, so
what? If the ops paid for their own trip, then it is their prerogative
who, when, where and how they work or refuse to work.

Not saying it should be a rule or regulation; It's mrerely a plea from
a somewhat latecomer to the world of DXing (antenna restrictions over
the last 22 years). I had a pretty good total in Canada when I lived
there, but now I'm living in the US, so I had to start everything over
when I got my US call in 2002.

We certainly don't have a right to complain on the air,
If we're not QRMing them (or anybody else), yes we do. Wonderful
thing, that first amendment.

jam the pile-up or vent our frustration in any
similar idiotic way, which happens quite frequently.

Agreed.

That in order to mount a dx-ped, all the ops must be top notch dx-ers

Yes, it's my belief that this *should* be one of the criteria for
inclusion in a DXpedition to a rare "most-wanted" entity.

As someone once said: beliefs are like assholes, everyone has one and
they all stink. My stinking belief in this case is the opposite of
yours. It would be nice if all the dx-peds were staffed by A1 ops, but
why should that be a criterion? I like the challenge of working a crappy
dx-ped.

Then you must be in ham-heaven with some of this current crop, and may
you enjoy your challenges to the fullest degree possible. My
steeeenking opeeenion is that I'd rather see better ops at the pointy
ends of the pileup.

...work them if I can. If not, I'll work them some other time. Where's the urgency?

We're at the beginning of the decline of cycle 23. We have *maybe*
12-18 months of good or even marginal propagation left before a long,
quiet five-to-six year hiatus. While I hope I'm still around and in
good health when cycle 24 kicks up, I'd rather get some rare entities
now if I can. There are also plenty of older hams who may not see
cycle 24, and for their sakes, I hope they can work these rare
entities while they can.

You tell me...what was the rush to work the P5? It's entirely likely
we'll never see another P5 in many of our lifetimes. I came into the
game too late to get KP1 or KP5 -- unless there's a complete change of
heart in Washington (unlikely), those entities are off-limits forever.
You never know if a politically unstable entity that today permits (or
tolerates) amateur radio may become more entrenched and bans it
outright. I'm not picking one example here, rather I'm speaking
metaphorically. However, I'd venture to say, we won't see a 3C0
operation again for a very long time

It's the job of the team organizer to invite along the most qualified
people he or she can find.

Peter, I have a feeling you're taking dxing way too seriously. You talk
of "investing time and effort", "target areas", "jobs"... it is still a
hobby, after all.

It's a hobby I take very seriously, yes. For a DXpedition leader, it
IS a job in the sense that they're managing large sums of money, human
resources, handling interesting global logistical problems that would
give most corporate shipping managers fits, fundraising, etc, etc.

Let me just say that I personally spend an
disproportionally high amount of time on ham radio, but you have to have
a clear demarcation line between the enjoyment of it and taking it
seriously.

I'm somewhat competitive in nature and I enjoy taking DX seriously. If
I ever can field a good contest station, or be part of a good contest
group easily from where I'm located, I'll take that equally seriously.

And why would that be the case? So they can spend 99.99% of the time
dishing out "you're fivenine, qrz"? I don't see a need to be fluent in
English where all one ever needs is three and a half standard phrases.
If anything, this just invites annoying idiots' questions and requests
for 160m, RTTY, QSL info

The need for good language skills comes from the need to control
pileups. Any numbnuts can say fivenineqrz, but it helps if they can
understand the frequently silly phonetics I've heard and all the
nonsense that I'm sure they have to put up with. It IS a legitimate
question to ask if they're going to show up on a different band or
mode if you happen to need them on it and aren't sure if they're able
to help.

listening for "my friend", etc.
Dont get me started on that one...This is one of my BIGGEST pet
peeves. Gaaah.

I don't see how that's obvious in the 59-QRZ operation, but that's just
me. There are hundreds of first class contest ops with limited English
skills, which doesn't seem to be hampering their scores one bit.

There's a difference between the two types of operation, although they
are becomming increasingly similar. At the very least, though, they
have to be able to clearly understand the calling stations.

Again, yes, they should if their goals include North America. All of
the major world-class operations do this -- it's called planning. Is
it too much trouble to ask somebody who's going to travel halfway
around the world to study their targets a little? To understand that
we can't use SSB below 7150, or that there are huge numbers of
operators who can't legally transmit in SSB below 14.225 and 21.300
(who would just LOVE to send a Q$L afterward)?

This is what differentiates a top-notch operation from a second-rate
or third-rate operation. I don't think the leaders of these operations
are deliberately trying to cheese-off the Americans (though in this
geo-political climate, who knows). I think it's more a case of
inexperienced DXpeditioners from EU or other entities who are very
well-meaning but not knowledgeable enough to do things well.

OK, let's say all of this is true. What do you propose be done about it,
other than the free Internet steam venting?

Well, I'll admit to some of that being the case. What I "propose" is
just this -- I'm hoping some future DXpeditioners reading this thread
will please take heed of the points that have been made. Maybe, just
*maybe* ONE future DXpeditioner will indeed take these points to heart
and will field a better operation as a result.

I don't think anyone planning a dx-ped considers having a crappy signal
instead, so this is a moot point.

They may not plan to have a crappy signal, but they often *do* have
just that -- and not just because propagation is bad. This can be
because they don't take along reliable amps, generators, spare
parts/tubes or any combination of these. Some use compromised antennas
for any number of reasons that perhaps more planning--or
fundraising--could solve.

Maybe some don't want to trudge equipment up to a good vantage point
of the QTH and just "make do" with a poorer solution. Who knows why.
Some times it can't be helped. Some times they can get a good signal
to EU and JA, but nothing to the US (or some combination of these
factors). So be it. What I'm taking issue with is those operations
that *can* help it, just choose not to, or who *could* be better but
haven't taken enough things into considerations.

What's a serious operation and why is it necessary for dx-peds to be
serious?

A serious operation is something that costs at least fifty to a
hundred grand, takes months to plan and execute and goes to a
highly-desired entity. If the members who do this don't approach the
venture with some business savvy, they're setting themselves up for
failure to begin with, in my opinion.

Show me where in the Constitution, the Bill of Rights or the US Legal
system is anyone guaranteed a QSO with a dx-ped.

Please. Don't be ridiculous about it. I don't want anything in amateur
radio operations to be "guaranteed," except perhaps that my equipment
won't short out and electrocute me when I plug it in, and that it will
be reparired free if it's defective and I bought it new. Out of a
DXpedition, I simply want a fair shot at possibly making a contact.
True, nothing in the rules, spoken or non, says anybody HAS to do
this, but I'm asking operations in the fututre to *please* be
considerate and play as fairly as possible by putting out a good
signal, working split, not taking out of turn callers, etc, etc, etc.
The don't HAVE to, but I think we all can agree that it would be nice
if they WOULD.

And if you are ready to forgive the condx, why is the "poor planning" or
"poor operating" such a serious breach of conduct?
Poor condx are beyond anybody's ability to overcome. Mother Nature
holds all the cards here. Mother nature, on the other hand, doesn't
sit and work fat EU signals all day long when W6s and W7s are
screaming their lungs off on those days there's no propagation to JA.

What makes you think anyone owes you a QSO?
Nobody. See above.

You realize, of course, that you're describing the paradox of
perfection: the more perfect things are, the more banal they become.
In that case, I'll take banal, thanks g. You go enjoy your napkin
collection; I'll happily work as many new ones as propagation, my
equipment and time allows.

Nothing is perfect in this world, so why should the dx-peds be?
We should all strive to be the best and do the best that we can. I
live my life with that aim every day. I may not always succeed, but I
always strive to be the best that I can be at whatever. I appreciate
those who run operations as well as possible.

If that's the case, then apply the principle to your station and evolve
some bad ass antennas and you'll work whoever you please. It's simple
and it falls within your own principle of the quest for perfection with
which I agree to a point.

Absolutely, and once we can afford to move from our rented apartment
to a house where I can set up what I want, I'll do just that. But even
if I can work the worst, ill-planned, crappily-executed DXpedition and
get Upper Dipthong confirmed on all bands and modes, that won't make
the operation any better, and I'll still not have a lot of kind words
to say about it. It's not about whether *I* can work them or not. It's
about how good a chance the average station has, and how well the
operators take into consideration the needs of their audience.


Hardly. Right now I work from a condo with a 10m loop ten feet above the
ground. So far I worked all the major dx-peds within the 8000 miles
radius; the rest I couldn't hear. However, if all the stars align well,
I'll have my 200 footer next year.

Best of luck in doing so. You're also extremely fortunate to be living
on the west coast, however, where you have a *much* greater shot at
working the rare Asian and south pacific entities that are never even
a blip on my S-meter. Granted, I have an advantage on 80M, but I think
I'd rather have west-coast DX than east. Unfortunately, my Real Life
is on the east coast. sigh.

Well, they sure don't seem to be freedom fries anymore, after we all
discovered that politicians lie for a living. Who knew?

Freedom Fries. Puh-leeze. They were actually invented in Belgium, but
still. My wife was born in Paris; I was born in Montreal. You'll never
hear any French bashing from this ham, despite how much I occasionally
disagree with the governments of those places.


73 de Peter, W2IRT
(ex-AB2NZ, VE3THX)

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