John Popelish wrote:

From an earlier posting: For example, if we took a snapshot of the
current, all along the line at the moment it peaked it might look like
thislength of arrow represents current magnitude, and head shows
direction)(view in fixed width font)

....--- --- -- - - -- --- --- -- - - --......
hole-------------------50 ohm coax-------------------hole
x y
There is a standing wave current node at 'x' and a standing
wave current antinode (loop maximum) at 'y'. Let's say we
installed coils at those two points

.....--- --- -- - - -- --- --- -- - - --......
hole--------------/////----50 ohm coax----/////------hole
x y
Now we have current flowing into both ends of the coil
located at 'x' and current flowing out of both ends of
the coil at 'y'. How does the lumped circuit model handle
that situation?

Continuing with this posting:
Please don't be silly. Distributed networks have points. An infinite
number of them. Calculus is used to smoothly move through this infinity
of points. But at any particular point, current is defined as the rate
of movement of charge past that point.

No argument, but that is instantaneous current and that is NOT
the subject of this discussion. We are discussing the RMS phasor
value of current used by W8JI and W7EL for their measurements
and reported by EZNEC as in the graphic at:

http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp/travstnd.GIF

Please look at the standing wave current phase and tell us how
that flat phase curve can be used to measure the phase shift
in a wire or coil.

The current reported by EZNEC and measured by W8JI and W7EL is
*NOT* instantaneous current. It is RMS current. Instantaneous
current is completely irrelevant to this discussion.

I've been waiting for that to happen. There's no point
continuing an argument with someone who denies one of
the cornerstones of EM wave theory.

So you deny that there are any points (where voltage can be defined or
that charge passes) in all distributed networks?
How strange.

:-) You have your points confused. I was talking about a logical
point. Here, let me translate for you. There's no *reason* to
continue an argument with someone who denies one of the
cornerstones of EM wave theory. John, is English your native
language? For the record, I did NOT deny the existence any
physical points!!!

The fact remains that standing wave current phase cannot
be used to measure phase delay through a wire or through
a coil. There is no phase information in standing wave
current phase.

Yes. That fact remains.
It is a non sequitur in the above discussion, however.

Whoa there, John, it is the entire reason for this discussion.
W7EL used that standing wave current phase to try to measure
phase shift through a coil. If there is no phase information
in standing wave current phase, then his entire argument
falls apart and he is back to square one with his flawed
lumped circuit model.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp