On Mar 4, 6:56 pm, "Dee Flint" wrote:
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On Mar 4, 11:38 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
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On Mar 4, 10:25 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
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On Mar 4, 9:10 am, "Dee Flint" wrote:
"KH6HZ" wrote in message

...

[snip]





As I see it, there simply is no longer a need for an "entry level"
license.

Why not?

As I suspected, and Len asserted, "It's all about Morse Code" with
some of you's guys.

Not at all. There is such a wide range of enjoyable activities available
that I want people to be able to explore them. For the same reason
(expanding one's range of activities and knowledge base), I've dragged
Extra
class licensees over to the VHF station at Field day to show them what
can
be achieved on those frequencies. While there are many Extras familiar
with
the VHF/UHF possibilities, for some reason the Extras in the club I
belong
to it have not really explored them.

I was referrign to Code Testing.

Not relevant to anything I have said in this thread. It is not about code
testing but about each of us "being all that we can be".

....an army of one. Try to keep up with the changes.

With the dropping of the code test requirement, the difference between
the
Tech license material and the General license material is just not that
great.

I want you to always remember that you said that. Always.

No problem as I have been maintaining for quite some time that there is
noticeable overlap in the material. In addition, for that reason, I have
always encouraged applicants to take a shot at the General written if they
do well on the Technician.

First, if there is so little difference between the Technician Exam
and the General Exam (sans Morse Code), then you make my point that
the Technician exam is just too advanced for an entry level exam. It
must be simplified.

No it does not. I've taught the classes to people with wide ranges of
backgrounds. The majority of the overlap is in rules, regs, and safety.
They have to know this no matter how much you "simplify" an entry level
license. You can actually miss all the math questions and still pass the
Tech test. Therefore the Tech can't get a whole lot simpler.

Second, it was the General Exam that once conveyed ALL AMATEUR
PRIVELEGES. Now you are saying that it is the defacto starting point
because there is no Morse Exam to accompany it? That just smacks of
Code Tested Extra elitism.

No, I'm saying that once people get their license, most will choose not to
stay long at the Technician level.

Code -was- the barrier.

Also keep in mind that the General test
of the past was much harder than today's General as they took a lot of that
material and moved it to the new license classes.

No, it wasn't. It is substantially more difficult today. And don't
forget that half of the OLD General test is now called "Technician."

Third, the Advanced and Extra Exams have been combined, thereby
dumbing down the Extra, bringing it closer to the present General
Exam,

Not hardly.

How could it not be?

I've taught the classes for today's Extra exam. The VEC
Question Pool Committee combined the material from the old Advanced and
Extra and created a monstor question pool covering all those topics.

Exactly, and you say that as if I didn't know it.

So what do you get when you combine questions from a lower license
class with that of a higher license class? You have REDUCED standards
for that higher license.

Imagine the old Novice Q pool being combined with the Extra Q pool for
the Extra license... that should magnify my point so that even you can
see it.

The
only "break" is that you end up taking one written test of 50 questions
instead of two tests of 40 and 50 questions for a total of 90 questions.
Today's Extra exam has an 800+ question pool to select from for that 50
question test.

Miccolis has covered this...

not pushing it toward an MSEE like some of you would like to
think.

I've never made that assertion nor implied it. That MSEE has to learn a
whole lot more than was ever covered in the Amateur radio exams.

Are you an MSEE?

So if there is so little difference between the Technician and
General Exams, and the Extra has been dumbed down to Advanced level,
why do we still have people wanting more superfluous license classes
that are growing closer together in difficulty allatime?

I did not say there is so little difference between the Tech and General.

I believe you did, but will accept that is not what you meant (unless
you say it again).

Merely that it is reasonable for a person to study to go to General either
right at the beginning or shortly thereafter.

That would be known as the "Old General." They were split in the
Spring of 1987.

Nor has the Extra been dumbed down to the Advanced class.

Sure it has.

If you were to
talk to any of the people who earned their Extra under the pre-2000 system,
they will tell you that the Advanced class written test was the hardest of
all the writtens.

It was. I took and passed both.

So the Extra was already dumbed down, and now it is combined with a
lower class pool...

Sounds really, really dumbed down now.

That is where the bulk of the difficult technical
material was. The Extra class test addressed more detailed knowledge of the
rules, regs, what it takes to be a VE,

My opinion is that the VEC needs to cover being a VE, not a
additional, superfluous license class.

and a small amount of technical
material.

A very small amount.

When the system was changed, all the material for both the
Advanced and Extra went into the new Extra question pool

Which is why it's dumbed down.

And in the end, it's still allabout Morse Code with you.

That conclusion is not based on any of the opinions I have expressed in this
thread or any other.

Dee, it's based upon all of the opinions that you express.

In the exam sessions, we actively encourage a person to try the
General when they pass the Tech exam. Those applicants that have chosen
to
develop an understanding of the Tech material (i.e. learn the antenna
equation and how to use it rather than memorizing the lengths for the
questions that might occur on the test) usually come within a couple of
points of passing the General. Some would have passed the General if
they
had simply known to also memorize the General frequency priviliges along
with the material they already knew.

Did you say memorize? Wouldn't you rather they understood the
frequency privileges?

I don't bother getting involved with that discussion as most just try to
twist it to suit their own purposes. There is some material that must be
memorized just as frequencies and equations. Other things must be
understood as to when and how to use those equations.

Fair enough, but I had to bring it up.

The material on the Tech and General is straight forward enough that it
can
be grasped by just about anyone with a moderate amount of study. If one
looks at it in terms of return (license & range of privileges) versus
investment (study), the General is perfectly reasonable as a first
license
step.

All government testing should be straight forward.

All of the testing is straight forward. The Extra is merely difficult not
convoluted.

So all of the matierial is straight forward? Good.

On the other hand, let's look at an "entry level" license and exam. You
have got to cover rules, safety (including RF radiation safety), and good
operating practices as a bare minimum. By the time you do this, you've
already got a significant portion of what you would need for a General
class
license. Your return (license & privileges) versus investment (study)
for
an entry level license, is just not that worthwhile.

If you remove the RF Safety, and change the power levels below that
required for an RFEA, then you have the makings of a simplified
amateur class.

Why should anybody even bother with such a limited license? It would be so
limited people would get bored and drop out or immediately upgrade. Not
worth the investment of time.

Not children, not scouts. I guess we don't want to attract newcomers
for a lifetime of amateur radio, just the retirees.

Those countries that have folded their two license classes into one class
often had a written test that was equivalent to our Extra not our General
for both and the only differentiating item was the code test. Thus they
really had no "entry" license.

I wasn't allowed to talk about Japan. You shouldn't be allowed to
talk about anonymous countries.

Never said one wasn't allowed to talk about Japan. Merely pointed out the
invalidity of trying to compare the systems.

Invalidity?

They had VHF/UHF licenses and full licenses.
The US has been somewhat unusual in that there is a license (General)
that
has a significant range of privileges on all bands with a moderate level
level of testing.

Dee, N8UZE-

The General once conveyed ALL AMATEUR PRIVILEGES.

Sheesh!

And the General test covered the appropriate material at that time.

Still does.

Although the "incentive licensing" had major implementation issues, it did
have the benefit of bringing people into the hobby since they could take the
material in smaller bites instead of having to learn everything all at the
same time. It achieved that goal.

Smaller bites? That wasn't the purpose of Inventive Licensing.

So Sheesh! yourself. You are trying to compare the system of several
decades ago with newer systems.

Dee, N8UZE

Are there still tube questions in the exams?