David Eduardo wrote:
"D Peter Maus" wrote in message
...
That's only a limitation if you believe it. I'm not saying it's
easy, David, but if a station can make an agency/client see a potential
that was not exploited in one vein, then the station has that ability in
other areas. It's only a matter of self limiting beliefs that keep one
from making the pitch.

The limitation has several factors. First, save a rare all radio campaign,
radio is 6% to 7% of all ad spending. It makes nearly no money for the
agency, except in commissions. It's hard to buy. Agencies don't spend a lot
of time on radio... and many shops do not buy radio at all, because they
would rather not have the hassle.

So much do agencies dislike buying radio that many farm out the buying
function to buying services. To sell to them, unless you talk rates, you are
shown the door... they have only one criteria and that is to bring in the
desired number of gross ratings points against the target demo at the lowest
price possible, because they share the commission and get a percentage of
any savings below the target CPP.

So to expect agencies to even listen to a request that requires client
consent to implement is simply a waste of time.



See, I disagree with that. While I hear your objections, and have
heard them before, often at the top of someone's lungs, I've been
personally involved in too many meetings where we did, as a radio
station, sell directly to an agency, and we did change the parameters of
a buy. I"m not saying its easy, but it IS possible. And it does bear
fruit...both for the end client and the station, which means it also
bears fruit for the agency.

I understand that agencies are too important to get their hands
dirty with Radio. They're agencies. Radio is...well, the home of disk
jockeys...and perceptually, that's not a positive. One of the many
reasons that agencies do the things they do is to throw up walls between
themselves and media so that the agency can call the shots. And they're
notoriously intractable. And they don't care about anybody's rules. At
the Chicago Addy's Leo Burnett used to submit their national McDonald's
spots in the local station promo category, where they clearly did not
belong. The swept the category.

When threatened with having their submissions denied, in favor of
more appropriate categories, there were some behind the scenes
conversations in which the word 'budget' was used.

Burnett continued to do things their way unmolested.

I have a clear understanding of what you're saying.


However....if you want to get beyond those walls, you have to find
a creative way around them. You can't assault them directly.

We had meetings all over the market with other stations, both in
the group and out, and we compared notes. Then I was called into
meetings with the local sales mangler to hammer out a strategy. It
started with the next cattle call, in which stations were gathered to
present their best and most compelling reasons for being on the buy.
After more than an hour and a half of statistics, demographics, charts,
audio demos, and whatever these stations could bring, our Sales Mangler
was up. Without moving from his chair, he tossed out on the table
colored 3 X 5 cards with words in block letters on them (I think it was
Albertus Bold, actually...one of my personal favorites). Words like
"Passion For Excellence." "Personal Power." "Love of Product." "Love of
Listeners."

As he tossed out the cards, he said, "These are the things we
believe in. We believe in..." out came the card that said 'Results,'

"Results. But above everything else, we believe in no limitations.
No obstacles."

And as he tossed out his last card, he looked around the table and
said, 'And I'll remind everyone here, that it was our Production
Director who singlehandedly stole from everyone in this room, and
serviced all by himself, the Omni Superstore account."

They looked at him like he had nine heads. The rep from the agency
who'd made the cattle call, said 'What are you from Mars?"

At which point the Sales Mangler got up, said, "call me when
you're ready to make some REAL money." And left, to return to the office.

We laughed about that at the station for two days. Until the phone
rang, and the agency wanted to talk.

We got on their buys. Through ups and downs, through manglement
changes, PD changes, music changes, and severe ratings slumps. And we
stayed on the buy.

When the station hit #1, it was converting at 200%+ Sometimes
dramatically higher than that. And almost always including demos NOT
requested by the agencies.

But it all started with that surreal moment in the conference room
of one of the handful of international agencies in Chicago.

We didn't assault the wall directly. That would have been as you
say, futile. What we did was the equivalent of whacking the mule in the
head with a 2 X 4...we got it's attention. And from there, we made our
own pitch.

And we changed the way radio was bought. At least on a limited
scale. But it was a start.

When I stole the Omni Superstore account, I did it against the top
agencies in town, including the multinationals, AND the in-house agency
at Dominick's, which owned Omni. But I got it. Me. Single handedly. With
a single spot written in 20 minutes and produced in 10 at the Radio
station. And the reason I got the deal and the agencies didn't, is that
I was the ONLY one who had ever been in the store. And when I talked to
Gary Benson, who was building the franchise, I was the only one who
understand what it was he was trying to build. Because I'd been there.
And all the figures, all the hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on
demos, including having the London Symphony record a jingle, meant
nothing. I'd demonstrated that I could produce the result he was looking
for.

Getting a client's attention, getting an agency's attention, like
getting the attention of a Radio station General Mangler, is often no
more difficult than being different enough that you go around the wall.

That's why I say, if your pitch isn't producing results, change
your pitch.

In the agency context, that means how you deal with, build
relationships with, and how you approach the agency.

In a similar, and related, context, if a spot isn't producing
results with 55+, change the pitch. You CAN sell to higher demos. And I
understand that lower demos are easier, and less costly to assault. But
the higher demos have more ready cash, and they do spend it. Convincing
them may require a different effort. May require more of it....but if
once you break through, you've tapped into a gold mine. Getting over
that hump may require more effort, but once tapped, that reserve of cash
comes with new loyalties, and new willingness to do business.

I understand you can't sell 55+ the way you sell 18-34. I'm not
disuputing that at all. So you don't. But you don't just give up. We
buy. Often the same things. But more often than not, bigger ticket
items. You change the pitch. You find a way to sell us that does work.
If you're unwilling to do that, we'll take our money and spend it with
someone who will. But with an aging population, and declining birth
rates, it's something you may wish to consider.

Immutable Law of Marketing says if you get there second, you'll
only pick up the scraps.




Add to that the fact that radio stations, save a few in very large markets,
don't sell directly to most agencies... we sell via representative firms who
offer dozens and up to hundreds of stations in many, many markets. The
buying funciton is one of price negotiation; a media buyer has no ability to
change buy specs. And most stations due to expense and distance can not call
on higer-ups at an agency because they are hundreds or thousands of miles
away.


I understand exactly what you're saying. But my own experience,
again, says that there are ways of getting beyond that wall. Sometimes
it's a matter of building a relationship with someone at the rep firm.
Sometimes, it's a matter of something so absurd that it gets attention.

You're aware of the Wal-Mart story. Sam Walton asked his stores
to give him a 20% increase in profits. 20% increase in a single year at
discount Retail was, at the time, considered impossible. Millions of
dollars in consumer buying research said so.

So, he vowed to do a hula in a grass skirt on Wall Street if his
stores produced a 20% increase in a single year.

They did. He did. And the story has passed into legend.

'Can't be done' is a state of mind. I do understand how difficult
it can be to get somethings done. How difficult it can be to create new
avenues. How difficult it can be to break through walls created
specifically to keep you at bay. But my whole career has been spent
cutting wormholes through 'it can't be done.' I know better.

I know there is a way. Finding it is one challenge. Doing it is
another.





But the main point is that agencies will not go back to a client to change
an approved media plan because they do not want to seem incompetent. And
they sure will not do it when the client asked for one demo and some station
in Des Moines or Detroit or Denver can't pull off the CPP goals without
asking for a change in demo.


I disagree, here, David. I've been involved. I've seen it done.
I"ve helped do it. And not only in Chicago.

It's not easy. And not every effort is successful. But it can be
done. And it's done every day.



I'm also not saying that the station should change the client's
target demographic, but rather that the station working through the
agency, can show the client how to expand their market and include a
richer element with more discretionary income.

Clients do millions, hundreds of millions, of dollars worth of research.
This is how they come up with demos to give to the agency. P&G, using them
again as an example, creates products, researches them with consumers,
develops packaging and the product name to appeal to a specific group that
will not only buy the product but will buy with the least marketing cost.

Such research shows over and over that the older the consumer is, the more
established brand preferences are. That means that to sell, the advertiser
has to overcome more resistence, and that means more ads... and if they are
going for a different demo, new creative (confusing) and a different
strategy for dealer incentives, point of purchase, and the campaigns on TV,
cable, Internet, outdoor, print and such. If the return on investment is
low, they will not do it because they can't make money... and that is the
reason why there are practically zero campaigns for 55+.



Once again, research is a snapshot of conditions as they exist
pertinent to an array of assumptions. Assumptions that are
scientifically arrived at, perhaps, but assumptions nonetheless. And
assumptions take on an axiomatic inviolability that is accepted as law
within the context of research. However, these assumptions are based on
an average of characteristics applied to individuals, and narrowed
statistically, ignoring wider, and broader variations in human
behaviour, tastes, beliefs, politics and understanding...and a hundred
others.
It's a pretty specific and scientifically arrived at snapshot.
But it's only a snapshot. And like photographs in Life, it's only a
picture of a moment. A product of a myriad of influences that are not
seen, and are not measured in favor of the more easily arrived at
characteristics.

These snapshots are then applied to understand the actions of
the target class and infer the motivations of that class implied by
their actions. This is where the assupmtions get very obvious. Because
no one may know what's in another's heart. What motivates one to take an
action is deeply personal and influenced by things that may not be seen
or measured by research.

Take an example. AM talk formats experience a younger demo
ratings spike after moving to FM. The assumption is that they're
listening now because of the improved audio quality. Which may be true.
Which is likely true. But it's not the only reason.

The new format may be where there was an older, less successful
station, but with some credible ratings. Suddenly there's a new station
there.

Sampling without effort. Some loyalty to the old station.
Hearing something they'd not heard before and enjoying it. Something
they would not have considered listening to but now, enjoy because it's
now where all the with-it listeners are listening. Sampling because
promotion directed their attention, supported by their friends. Hundreds
of reasons.

Whatever they may be, most of them will be based in the
fundaments of FM audio. But that single issue may not be their
motivation. It may be at their core of motivation, in this instance. But
it may not be what moves them to listen.

Research would see this, and infer that if the station on the
AM were to sound better that it would move these listeners to sample the
station on the AM band.

False assumption leads to an incorrect inference. The improved
audio quality, the static free listening, the new content....whatever
they enjoy, is already where they are listening. It's where their radios
already are. It's where, for more than a generation, they've been
conditioned to listen, because AM is history. It's where bad sound and
archaic formats, and their father's Oldsmobile has been tuned for decades.

You talk about being Oldsmobiled? Who listens to AM? The same
people who didn't buy an Alero, even though it was a cleaner, more
stylsh line, with better performance and more comprehensive features.
Those same people are not listening to AM because it's AM. They didn't
buy an Alero precisely because it was an Oldsmobile. And this has been
true of Oldsmobile since the 50's. The same people that didn't buy
Oldsmobiles, bought comparable Pontiacs, Chevrolets. They also bought
Buicks. They wouldn't even consider an Oldsmobile. Even though it was
often a better designed, better built version of the same platform, they
chose the equivalent models in other brands. For more money. For less
money. But always not buying the Oldsmobile.

Changing the Oldsmobile to look like the Pontiac, Buick or
Chevrolet, would not influence the buy. In 1956 Buicks and Oldsmobiles
were identical mechanically, and nearly identical cosmetically (thank
God I went to the car shows all weekend, eh?) but the same person who
bought the Buick wouldn't consider the Oldsmobile. For any reason.
Because it was an Oldsmobile.

Similarly to the analogy of AM radio, there was a time
Oldsmobile was a giant. But those that bought were not willing to
consider another brand. Likewise, non-Olds buyers would not consider an
Oldsmobile.

What motivated buyers to buy or not to buy? That is the
question. Research could say it was style, mechanicals, price, even the
name itself. But it cannot KNOW what really motivates an individual to
do anything. It can only infer, based on an array of assumptions applied
to a snapshot. And like a photograph, what's out of the reach of the
lens is entirely unknown. May only be assumed. But what's out of the
reach of the lens most profoundly influences the nature of that within
the frame.


Research infers that younger demos will listen to AM if the
audio were clearer. Perhaps. But will they sample it? Honestly sample
it? Probably not. "Why" is individually determined, and out of the reach
of the research snapshot. But the ones who will not listen to AM now,
will not listen, simply because you improve the audio (debatable given
IBOC performance I've experienced). It's their father's radio. It's
unhip. It's bad sound. Whatever the reason, there's nothing that will
get them to sample AM.

Now, your argument that with a bandplan change and side by
side AM/FM sampling will be easier, and often unavoidable...Even less
likely they'll move to AM...And even if the FCC mandates a continuous
bandplan for broadcast, they'll still not sample AM because side by side
with FM, even AM HD still sounds less robust, less clean, with more
artifacts, and more reception anomalies.

The research snapshot may suggest and assume a lot of things.
But it's actively in denial of the big Oldsmobile logo stamped across AM
radio.




How many 55 year olds own iPods? BMW's? Chevrolets? How many 55
year olds buy soap? Toothpaste? How many 55 year olds listen to music? I
mean, it's more likely that a 55 year old can afford a home theatre system
from McIntosh Labs than a 24 year old.

The point is not about income, etc. The point is that to create a change in
brand preference costs too much and makes the sale undesirable.


The point is exactly about income. It's about sales,
accessing the disposable income of those who have the most of it. If
it's too much work to access that well of disposable cash, then when the
free cash you're scooping up off the ground starts to run thin, where do
you turn for sales?

More importantly, you don't want to be telling the Boomer
generation that they're easily ignored because their inconvenient to
serve. Don't do us any favors.



Don't tell me we don't watch movies.

Nearly all film ads are targeted to 15 to 34 year olds. That's because that
group is the overwhelming box office customer. Similarly, 9% of consumers
account for about 90% of beer consumption. The beer companies focus on the
media that deliver the 9%. The rest they get by spillage or they don't even
care about them because they can not make a profit on the sale based on mass
media advertising.


If your pitch doesn't work, change the pitch. You keep
saying what can't be done. Look at possibilities. There's nothing that
can't be done. These things are done every day.


The most important part of successful selling is not in knowing
what you can and cannot fight, but how to present to bring a new pitch to
a resistant target. One size doesn't fit all.

Radio stations do not generally get to pitch the client.


Radio stations pitch clients every day. Every day. That's
what the Sales staff is for. If a station ONLY accepts agency buys, you
telling me you have no Sales staff.


If we have contact,
it is when working with the marketing department after the sale on a
promotion or some kind of support merchandising. Most agency clients have no
interest in talking to someone from a radio station.


So you have said. And yet, you seem unwilling to find the
way to build the relationship that would circumvent that wall between
Radio and the client. And yet, I've seen it done, effectively, most of
my career.

Every Day.



You want to capture new sales, you change your pitch to new
targets.

There is no money in 55+. No single radio station, and no group can change a
client's attitude if the client is going to say, "I can not get a decent ROI
on that demo" or "my product was designed for 18-34 year olds and I hope we
don't get Oldsmobiled."


That's where your superiour knowledge and experience comes
in. Accepting 'can't' because someone waving a check has said it, isn't
Leadership. It isn't even Management.

Nothing is 'can't.' There are always possibilities. It's
your job as Manglement and Sales to make that pitch. Accepting the
snapshot only guarantees that you'll live within the confines of the
snapshot. The future is finding what's outside the frame.



And as the population ages, finding a way to serve 55+ is going to
be the key to survival. For media, and for retail.

Radio, as it exists today, is not going to be around by the time advertisers
want 55+, if they ever do.

So, you're in this for the quick kill. And the listeners be
damned? That doesn't sound like someone who's dedicated his life to the
business. In this country or others.

Radio as it exists today, is only for today. A future will
be in embracing possibilities instead of seeing only obstacles.

Embracing possibilities happens every day.




I'm not a PD... although I have programmed on a few occasions. Most of my
career was as manager (and owner) and GSM.

Then you, more than anyone here, would know the resource
potential of a good sales force and how to make a sale 'outside the box.'

I also know what is a waste of time. In my last sales position, over 8 years
we had 28% average annual sales increases when the market was only
increasing in single digits. I knew where to focus my efforts, and did not
tilt windmills. And it's not just age... you have to know what non-radio
brands are appropriate for radio, and which need the "appetite appeal" of
visuals or product demonstrations to sell. This is why you don't hear
exercise equipment sold on the radio.


Stan Freberg demonstrated three decades ago that you can
sell anything on radio. It's the most visual of electronic media.

Trying new things isn't tilting windmills. Accepting
'can't' on it's face, however, can make it seem that way.



You also know that stations make pitches to agencies every day.
Station makes the pitch to the agency. The agency's job is to present to
the client. Expanding a market is never a relationship jeopardizing thing.

No, radio stations present rates to agencies. They may present the station
occasionally, like once or twice a year, to the media director or the media
planners. If this is through a rep firm, even that seldom happens.


My own experience is directly contrary to this. Radio
stations present to agencies every day. The ones that get on the buys
most consistently create relationships with agencies that transcend the
walls erected to separate them.



When radio buys come out, the budget and the creative have already been
approved by the agency... and in most cases, the media plan by medium and by
market has been approved, Stations are invited to submit rates to get a part
of a pre-existing buy. They get a chance to make up for a high CPP by
supplementing with value added, but demos and cost goals are engraved in
stone.

Nothing is engraved in stone, unless you accept that it is.
Again, I've seen radio stations influence buys every day.


Most Manglers, and owners, I've worked with, known or had contact
with hide behind walls of research, statistics and historical experiences,
the Third Circle, beyond which they can see, but refuse to look. They
quote figures as though they are immutable laws. Figures are only a
snapshot of what exists through the lens of a moment and a place and a
given set of circumstances. Change the time, the place, or the
circumstances, and the statistics may not apply.

This is really not about research. The agency uses audience data to
determine ratings points deliverys, and tells you how much they will pay per
point. The station either delivers that cost or beats it, or does not get
bought. And with so much radio advertising being placed by buying services,
there is no opportunity to sell much of anything else on most agency calls
for rates.



Mel Karmazin said, and repeatedly, I might add, that
revenues are commonly linked to ratings. They're not. A station can
always outperform it's ratings. Always. And it does so through high
expectations, and retaining control of it's inventory, And by believing
in possibilities instead of obstacles.


The hallmark of a salesperson is the ability to overcome
objections. To overcome obstacles. Accepting the futility of an agency
policy isn't part of that.

That's how Karmazin stations overperformed their ratings,
their markets and converted at 200% and higher.

Living in the Third Circle doesn't get you there.

Accepting 'can't' produces no results. And in an ever
competitive marketplace where there is, after all, only a 100 revenue
share, results matter. Possibilities produce results.




Where you and I have always disagreed, and where so much of the
furor in these groups exists, is that you seem unwilling to recognize that
what exists now, isn't all there is. And what works now isn't the only
viability. You may be right, and there may be no practical way to achieve
what's been suggested here. But that you refuse to acknowledge the
possibility is what's so maddening.

No radio station today has a sales plan for 2012. The business changes so
fast, the competitive array changes so fast, that there is no way to
forecast. But we do know there is no money for 55+ from agencies.


Correction....you BELIEVE there's no money from agenices
for 55+. You just haven't found a way to tap it, yet. Because you accept
that you can't try.



So nobody
is going to program for 55+ in the hopes clients of agencies change their
marketing tactics.

The few instances of buys for 35-64 in the past few years were mostly for
home equity loans, mortgages and such. That market is totally dead, as are
the companies that were using some money in radio.

That you deflect questions with statistics rather than provide real
answers.

No, there are realities.


No, these are perceptions. You've been told this can't be
done. I've seen it not only done, but done every day.



Such as the buying service issue. Such as most
stations using rep firms, not their own sellers for all but local agency
sales. And the fact that agencies practically never change approved budgets
and media allocations. Many have tried... a good example being Cox' WDUV in
Tampa... #1 for over a decade, but 14th in sales because 90% of the audience
is 65+. They have spent nearly 15 years trying, and Cox is a very good
company, and they are billing about what a gospel AM daytimer does. They
have nearly no agency business. Most of the accounts are Senior Specials at
restaurants and such... at very low rates.


Again, perceptions. If you accept them, they become what
you believe to be realities. They do not become realities themselves. If
you're not succeeding at selling this, then change you pitch.


No one's denying that there are more desirable demos. But
to claim that the desireable demos are the only demos is nonsense. Dare
I say, unmotivated.