On Jan 26, 2:22*am, Kenneth Isham wrote:
Telamon wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
In article ,
says...
SNIP
In your train analogy above, what is to keep the leading part of
the echo from being QRMed by the trailing part of the transmitted
signal?
The analogy is good in so far as it shows the timing, but I have to
admit it is poor in that I used a solid object, the train, to
represent a wave and their properties are very different. For
example, if two trains hit head on, you are going to have a mess.
That is not the case with waves. If you throw two rocks at the same
time in a pond of still water so that they land some distance apart,
the waves from each impact point move out in concentric rings. *When
the rings from one impact point spread out enough to meet the
spreading rings of the second, there is however no "wreck". *The
rings of waves of one appear to pass through the rings of the other
with no harm done to either wave.
I don't think that is true. I believe the waves would add, subtract or
be somewhere in between depending on their phase relationship.
What you say is true, but what I said is also true. The waves are not
"wrecked" and after the waves pass each other, they are are the same as
before they overlapped.
I found a reference on the web *
(http://www.smgaels.org/physics/amsco.../chapter04.pdf)
that says it much better than I could. *On page 109 the author states:
(Beginning of Quote)
"Two or more waves may pass through a medium at the same time. When this
occurs two rules apply. First, the total displacement experienced at any
point where waves meet is equal to the sum of the displacements of the
individual waves at that point. This is known as the principle of
superposition. Second, waves pass through each other, with each wave
unaffected by the passage of the others. After meeting, the individual
waves continue traveling in their original directions and with the same
characteristics as before."
(End of Quote)
SNIP
What you say is interesting, but...wave theory notwithstanding, what we
have are TWO RF signals on -essentially- the same frequency (ignoring
Doppler, libration, etc), the incident and the reflected. And I think we
both agree that the signals "overlap" for .75 seconds (as so aptly
stated in your 'train' analogy).
Actually they overlap for very close to 2 seconds. *Thinking back to the
train analogy, *the instant the pulse hits the moon (cow catcher on the
engine) and starts back the other way as an echo, we have an overlap.
That means 99.99% of the pulse (train), or almost 2 seconds worth, still
has to hit the surface and reflect before there is no longer an overlap..
Just like the old USSR jamming the VOA
-- two signals on the same frequency. Why wouldn't they interfere for
the .75 seconds in question?
I think they do to the extent of the "superposition" of the waves, and
if you were in a space capsule with a receiver 1000 miles from the
surface of the moon, I think you might indeed hear that interference.
Superposition is the concept. The EM waves in space do not interact. Yes
they certainly would interact in an antenna where they would create a
vector sum.
Since it is the same signal the interaction in the antenna would be to
weaken if out of phase to strengthen if in phase. It would not sound
like interference.
-
- Telamon:
-
- I have been reading this thread and wonder how the movement
- of Earth compared to the moon would affect the signal?
- Wouldn't this also ensure the signal would never interfere
- with itself as the signal would always be different location
- on the moon due to rotational movement.
-
- Ken I.
-
KEN I. - There must be many "Major" and 'minor' Factors :
Most likely the Biggest Factor was the Separation {The Distance
Between} of the Earth Pulse Sending Site in Alaska and the Lunar
Reflection Receiving Site in New Mexico.
The HF Active Auroral Research Program (HAARP) in Alaska
http://k9zw.wordpress.com/2008/01/18...wa-eme-bounce/
and the Long Wavelength Array (LWA) in New Mexico are
planning an additional Lunar Echo Experiment for Jan 18-19.
WHY - Being in a 'place' where you could Hear
both Signals Independently :
* Earth Pulse via Skywave {One Path}
* Lunar Reflection TransSkyWave (2x Out-and-In) {Other Path}
Effectively the Great Distance from Earth-to-Moon 238,857 Miles
renders the Variation in the Altitude of the Moon's Surface : the
Ups-and-Down to be a Non-Factor.
But there is the actual Surface of the Moon itself : Size/Area;
Material Composition; Hardness; RF/EM Properties; etc
Moon Diameter : 2,160 Miles
-and- YES this could be a Factor in the Reflection of Each
Earth Pulse as a Series of Independant Events.
However - HAARP is a Very Large Array {Antenna}
* It Sends Out A Very Focused Signal from at Wide Area
* A Large Area of the Moon is Covered by this Signal
-if- Not All of the Surface
* The Moon is a Very Large Convex Surface that is being used
as a Reflector for this Signal. Given the Larger Distances that
are involved it may be considered to be a "Flat" Surface.
Doing-the-Math :
Earth-to-Moon Distance : 238,857 Miles
Lunar Orbit : 1.5 Million Miles
Moon Diameter : 2,160 Miles
Half Lunar Surface Circumferance : 3391 Miles
Therefore the Half-of-the-Surface of the Moon being used
as a Reflector is 'only' about One (1°) Degree-of-Arc with
respect to the Earth as being the center of it's Orbit.
Thus given it's relative small Half-Surface Size and Distance
from the Earth it can also be considered a "Point Source"
Target and Reflector.
TBL - To me it all boils down to :
How Good Is "The Entire Half-Surface" of the Moon as a Radio
Frequency Signal Reflector for the Frequencies being Transmitted.
Individual Pulse Time versus the Earth and Moon Movements Times :
* Individual Earth Pulse Time Two Seconds (2")
* Earth Rotation 24 Hours ~ 86,400 Seconds [1:43,200]
* Lunar Rotation 28 Days ~ 2.42 Million Seconds [1:1.21M]
Clearly the Movement of both the Earth and the Moon in
just the Two Seconds (2") of the Individual Earth Pulse is
NOT a Significant Factor.
However -IF- It were you could 'Fractionalize' the Two Seconds
(2") of an Individual Earth Pulse into 200, 2000, etc Discrete
Parts and then Evaluate each Discrete Part and Add them all
back together again to have something [some number*}.
* Most Likely the Exact Number of . . . . . . . . . .
Angels That Can Fit-On-To-The Head-of-a-Pin.
)
i am all pulsed out and going lunar ~ RHF