Cecil Moore wrote in message ...
Roy Lewallen wrote:
I did read what you said. You said that it wouldn't exhibit a phase
shift if placed at a current maximum.

I'm sorry, there is a misunderstanding that is my fault. When I say
"current is the same.", I'm implying magnitude only. That's a
convention left over from my college days and may not be a
convention any longer. If I said anything at all about phase, I
used the word, "phase", in my posting. So I will stop omitting
the word, "magnitude", when I am talking about magnitude.

So do a system reset on what you think I said. There is always a
phase shift through a real-world inductor. Whether it can be
measured accurately is another matter. When I said: "If the
current maximum point is located in the middle of a coil, the
current (implied magnitude) in and out of a coil will be equal.",
I was implying current magnitude only. I didn't imply or say anything
about phase unless I used the word, "phase" in the sentence.

I also have not said anything about the phase of the currents into
and out of your toroidal inductance except to say it replaces
approximately 18 degrees of antenna.

The current at the base of a short
vertical antenna is at its maximum there. So now if you're saying that
it *won't* exhibit a phase shift if placed at the base of a short
antenna, let's try this.

As you can see above, I never said anything like that.

Suppose I remount my antenna to eliminate the
shunting effect of the mounting, and do my measurements at 3.8 MHz as
before. Suppose the base input Z is, say, 35 -j380. You choose any
inductor value you'd like, that will best illustrate your method, and
tell me what output to input current ratio to expect.

I am still leery about your ability to separate small phase shifts
from noise. We need to make the inductor large enough to ensure
the phase shift measurements are above the noise level.

I have no disagreement that a "bugcatcher" coil, or any coil of
physically significant size, will exhibit a phase shift and magnitude
change of current from one end to the other.

Huh?????? I thought that was what the argument was all about. What
triggered this whole discussion was W8JI's alleged assertion that
a loading coil like a bugcatcher doesn't affect the current at all.

Where we disagree is that
you believe that a physically very small inductor will also exhibit
this. I don't.

The effect of a very small inductor may be too small to measure in
the presence of strong fields and noise. Ask yourself, at exactly
what value of inductor does the phase shift completely disappear?
+j1? +j10? +j100? +j1000? What is the crossover point from some
phase shift to zero phase shift? Can you measure a phase shift of
0.1 degree at HF? Zero phase implies faster than light propagation
through the coil.

Cecil
Is not the group straying somewhat from the initial discussion
on E ham? That discussion that started all this was with regard to a
whip antenna and the coil on it. Why has the discussion been pulled
away from the original coil to a torroid of all things ? The basic
discussion was on a inductor of length which can be considered a major
part of the antennas length. It is this situation that Yuri stated
that he measured a current difference at the inductors end, to which
Tom replied that it was probably capacitive coupling to ground, so
even Tom did not dispute the possibility of a current drop per Yuri's
measurements !
Maneuvering to to a toroid style of inductance is placing darkness
over the original statement, probably to prevent the application of
light by others. Now the playing on words is intruding again ( phase )
so I suggest that in that atmosphere one should relate to a inductive
network to prevent
the accusation of a 'pure' inductance which is a whole different ball
game as conditions imposed in the solution of such a network is
certainly not the same.
Best regards and have fun.
Please do not pull into the discussion the root of minus one or all
the answers given by the application of a quadratic equation since
many will go crazy by taking them to the lab and measuring them. Grin
Art