RD Sandman wrote in
:

Gray Ghost wrote in
. 97.142:

RD Sandman wrote in
:


But I maintain that further taxation takes money out of the hands of
the producer class and further injures the economy so that higher
rates will return lower revenues.

I agree with that but is that injury more or less than what we
already have. It is like putting a bandage on a wound. It works, it
does good, helps healing but it often hurts when removed.

What if the wound never heals because of the treatment?

While true, it doesn't matter if the patient is dead.

Kinda my point.


There is simply no rational way to tax us out of this problem!

Nor is there a rational way to cut spending far enough to get us out
of this problem. Ergo, the solution needs to combine both.....more
taxes for certain areas and pretty damn heavy cost cutting in certain
areas.

Really? Do you honestly think even 1/3 or spending could stand honest
Constitutional scrutiny. Maybe it's time we stop acting like children
and started acting like there was more to life than government grants.

Where do you come up with 1/3? SS is 20%, Medicare/Medicaid and other
safety net programs are another 35%, Defense is 20% and the current debt
in 2010 was 6%. That consumes 81% of the budget. That only leaves 19%
for EVERYTHING else and all those costs are climbing.

I would love to see all of it up to serious Constitutional scrutiny. I
wonder how much of it Jeffereson and madison would approve of?


Of course we can cut back on Defense (which includes Homeland Security)
by taking the National Guard off the border (they are coming off anyway
by next year) and closing down many of our bases overseas, not buying any
more warships, dropping the F-35 and bringing our boys home from Iraq and
Afghanistan.

Obama's minions think they can get $500B out Medicare/Medicaid over the
next 10 years by elminating fraud and waste, but no one is really stating
where that waste and fraud is much less how to remove it. The Dems
aren't going to go for Ryan's plan although they haven't produced one of
their own......and won't until after the 2012 election. They'd rather
use Ryan's plan to badmouth the GOP to the voters.

That's about all they are good for.


Seriously how much more can we afford to take out of the private
economy? $1 trillion, $2 trillion? $4 trillion?

Our debt is now equal to our GNP. They both stand at about $14.3T
and we are borrowing $0.40 on the dollar. We can't keep doing that
and maintain our status on borrowing percentages.

No, but unless the bleeding stops or slows significantly... Look, I no
longer beleive the bull**** about raising taxes/cutting spending. I
became poltically aware in the 80s with the line of **** the Democrats
fed Reagan and then they reneged. It just is no longer credible. You
give them more money, they'll spend twiec as much on things that hurt
the economy.

True, but for now, the Republicans control the House where all spending
bills originate. Do you think we can wait until Republicans control all
three again? Look what happened last time. It is never really good when
the same party controls both Houses and the presidency.

I think if we don't something sooner rather than later it won't matter,
events will overshadow politics.


The only way to do it is DRASTIC spending reductions and DRASTIC tax
cuts so as to allow the producer class to keep it's money and be
able to spend it.

Excuse me, but with DRASTIC tax cuts, how do you intend to keep
programs alive AND pay down the debt. That is like maxing out your
credit cards and then leaving your job as an engineer to flip burgers
for miminum wage. The revenue needs to keep coming. In fact the
more revenue, the faster we can pay down that debt.

What makes you think I want to keep programs alive? I want dependency
on the fed stamped out, exterminated, destroyed, plowed under and the
earth salted

You have to keep some of them going. You simply can't put grannie on an
ice floe and send her out to sea, no matter how much you'd like to. Yes,
there is a lot of folks receiving Medicaid and unemployment and welfare
that shouldn't. But shooting everyone on those programs isn't the answer
either. I'd love to say that as a people we need to assume
responsibility for those who are less fortunate than us, but if that had
occurred earlier in our history, we wouldn't have the programs (and their
attendant problems) that we do today.

Well I wouldn't put grannie on asn ice flow out to see. I'd like to see
more people take responsibility for thier families.

Didn't want to make a big deal of it, but we're moving back to VA and
moving in with my mother-in-law. She's been having "issues" lately and my
wife wants to be the one to take care of her. Fortuneately she has a big
house, not as big as ours here, but in some ways better.

So I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

And it's not that people didn't do the right thing, it's that they let
themselvesd be hustled that they weren't needed and Uncle Sugar would do it
for them.

There is no reason to continue bad policy because it's been in place for a
long time if it appears that the policy is destructive.


Unless people are buying things and generating demand it
just can't happen. And more and more people will become dependent on
the government. More people will be living off of fewer people.
There is no possible way that that is a return to prosperity, no
matter what the Marxists beleive.

And there is really no way to simply cut, cut, cut and cut like many
others believe.

Yeah, there is. All it takes is balls and a conscience.

Sorry, but when cutting many of the things going on, balls and conscience
don't play well together. That human nature. We tend to say, hell, yes,
let's cut those programs those worthless assholes are on, but don't you
dare touch anything I may need, want or use.

Well sinec the Democrats won't even acknowledge that there is a problem,
they are sorta begging for a more extreme answer doncha think?


Clearly there are other issues. Offshoring jobs in particular is
very toxic. If you move the jobs overseas, then people here don't
work.

Then the laws need to be changed to fix that. We need to find a way
to tax offshore income rather than just leave it float in the wind.
We need to find ways to make our labor more viable here than in
France or China.

Um, by getting rid of all the government programs, taxes, regulations
and special interest bull**** that is currently choling the life of
the economy?

That 'special interest bull****' is part of capitalism. Not in theory
but in actuality. As are taxes and regulations.

Doesn't have to be.


People not working means they can't buy what they need or want. No
growth. I know what I'm talking about I'm a developer and the number
of jobs going to India and the foreigners being brought in to work
cheaper in essentially captive jobs is killing domestic programmers
and developers.

And I have been in hardware development and quite familiar with
outsourcing on both materials and labor. It is a practice that
became paramount due to competition and our laws.

"our laws"? Not mine. Marxists that want to control the economy maybe.

Our laws. Get your head out of your ass, Ghost. If everone took that
approach we would all be shooting each other at dawn. Our problems have
come from BOTH sides of the argument and it will take BOTH sides to fix
them.

Hey I'm as mad at the republicans for what they've done! Can't we thank
Nixon for ATF and the EPA? I have equal contempt for both parties.
Unfortuneately one has to choose one or the other if one wants to have any
influence, though maybe the TEA party will continue to expand.


And it isn't that we are overpriced. Some of the
offers I've seen recently have been downright insulting for someone
with as much experience as I have.

Sorry....

Also, over regulation takes it's toll. A couple out in Missouri
fined 10s of thousands for selling rabbits without a license, Amish
being attacked like Waco for selling milk (for God's sake!) to
people who apparently know the "risks" and are more than happy to
balance that with the benefits, Boeing being told they can't build a
plant in North Carolina becuase the UNIONS don't like it? **** me!
What has this country come to?

Regulation needs to make sense.....nuch of what you stated above
doesn't. Yes, I know it is there, but we need to change that however
deregulating everything is not the answer either.

OK, let's dump everything and start over. With the caveat that any
regulation MUST conform with the limits imposed by the Constitution.

How do you intend to do that? Have Congree declare this to be 1791?

Yep, have a big party on the mall and burn all the laws and regs made since
then. Of course we may need aerial tankers to control the burn. And there
are certain parts of DC that you might let the fire spread to.


Drastic spending cuts aren't just about stopping the hemorrhaging of
debt but to kill the federal behemoth which is (delibertately in my
opinion) stifling every bit of creativity and entrepreneurship.

Don't worry, it won't. Without a viable private sector, the public
one cannot survive.

While I don't mind seeing the public sector die...

Unfortuneately I think the parasite may kill the host.

And when that happens the parasite no longer survives because it needs
the host.

Great and then they are both dead. Is that a victory? Or is a lingering
death, debilitated by the sapping of strength preferable?


Good God, I tried to start a business back in teh 90s, just me and
my computer doing development on the side, in my home office. Not
only did the fed and state want thier cut the ****ing county had
thier greedy paws out for a piece of the action. I think I ended up
owing more in taxes than I got to keep. What the **** sense does
that make?

Interesting. I owned a computor consulting business and had no
problems like that. I had costs for a business license and they made
me a taxing point for state sales taxes....but that was about it.

Yeah the county wanted a license fee and piece of the action. I
figured after the feds, state and they got through with me it simply
wasn't worth it. I wasn't busting my ass to keep less than half of
what I earned to make the leechs fat, too.

Not like that everywhere. When things get overregulated, businesses
move...to other cities, states or countries.

To who's benefit? It simply exacerbates the problem.

--
Herman Cain for President! http://hermancain.com/
If you don't support him you are a Racist!!
He beat Cancer. He'll beat Obama (who is just like cancer)

Remember Desert One, Carter 0? Ain't it sad to wish that Obama had as much
ambition but being glad he doesn't knowing he doesn't have THAT much
competence?