Am 07.10.2011 10:51, schrieb RHF:
On Oct 6, 10:47 am, Thomas wrote:
Am 06.10.2011 15:59, schrieb SaPeIsMa:











"Thomas wrote in message
...
Am 05.10.2011 22:22, schrieb SaPeIsMa:

"Thomas wrote in message
...
Am 05.10.2011 15:43, schrieb SaPeIsMa:

Not to mention that the Euros have lived with that kind of "specialty"
for far longer than Americans have.
Which is why poor TH is so confused about who is what.

OK. But if you are so happy with the government, what do you need
these 'small guns, the serious protection you need ...' for?

I'm so sorry that you are so myopic
You are making a bunch of stupid presumptions
Who said that:
1) "small guns" are for protection against the government ?
2) "small guns" are NOT useable for protection against the Government ?
3) the government is some "monolithic beast" that can only be addressed
with BIG guns ?
- Government agents are people who may come at you individually OR in
large numbers
4) the government is the ONLY source of threat to individuals
- try criminals as an althernate threat
5) The RKBA is only applicable to "small guns" ?

Ok I don't understand the US society!

YES !
I agree you do not
But thanks for admitting that much
It's a good start

If a country has a certain population and has a government and all
sorts of personal, than this personal, employed by the country, should
somehow work for the country - and not against.

Well that's nice..
But what does that have to do with anything ?

A certain individual has a certain job in the large machine of the
society - say a teacher. Than the people pay this person to teach
their kids and that is what the person is supposed to do - no more, no
less.

OK.
And ?

If they employ a policemen, this person should bring some sort of
justice to a district, because the criminals are prosecuted.

BZZZT
You seem to confused about the role of the police
1) The police do NOT "bring justice to a district"...
Instead, the police
- are part of the SYSTEM to enforce the laws of the district
- usually show up AFTER a crime is committed

I hope!

but you seem to suggest, the policemen showed up before the crime was
committed (and left after).

- usually are used to gather evidence AFTER THE FACT

In Germany we have a distinction between police and a sort of police for
criminal investigation, called 'Kriminalpolizei'. (The ones, that
collect evidence)

Police has a specific monopoly (in Germany) and that is, what gives the
police a special role. Nobody is allowed to apply physical force on a
person, no government, no lawyer, no military, nobody except a policemen.

They represent the enforcement power of the government and only they.
Policemen are 'Beamte'. Don't know, how to translate that.
That is the Prussian idea of organizing the state with 'Pflichten'
(duties of an office'), that are codified in laws. An official is sworn
in to fulfil these duties and respect the constitution and so forth.
After that, he is bound to these duties - and not to orders of the
superiors. Those have duties themselves.

- possibly are used to track down the suspected criminal, and effect an
arrest
At that point the system uses prosecutors and judge to process the
alleged criminal and "bring justice" more or less..
Now the police may be tasked to keep the "public peace"
But in reality there are NOT enough police around to prevent crime or
stop crime in progress.
IN actual fact, most police are not even very good at solving crime.
As a matter of fact, there is NO EVIDENCE to support the thesis that
more police will result in less crime
Usually more police results in a "police state" which history has shown
is NOT a good thing...

The American system is that of orders, that a person has to obey and
only these. That is more or less a pyramid of orders. In such a system
it is essential, to have control over the top position - otherwise the
entire body of officials could march in unwanted directions.
The American have no clear distinction between the branches of
policework, but a overlapping structure of rivalling 'agencies', like
ATF, FBI, county sheriffs and so forth. And the police is organised on
different levels of the USA, what leaves a confusing picture of a
hierarchy of polices.

In Germany the police belong to the constitutional obligations of the
'L�nder' what is roughly the same as a state in the US.
The government (or 'Bund') has no police, because police belongs to the
'L�nder'. The Eu has no police neither - for the same reason. Actually
they have some sort of policeforce, but that is highly restricted.

That is a very good way to organise policework, because government
cannot easily enforce anything, what is lawless, because the policemen
is not obliged to follow governmental orders (he belongs to the states)
and has his duties written down. Special orders are not among those
duties. Only specific persons can direct policemen, like judges, that
crime-police and so forth. And the specific status as 'Beamte' makes it
a crime to try to corrupt a policemen.

- The entire system is, what gives Germany
- a peaceful appearance and usually friendly
- policemen.

Ah Yes... 'Peaceful' Germany and 'Good' Germans :
So then naturally the German Police carry NO Guns.
;;-}} - rotfl ~ RHF


I have written about a peaceful appearance of Germany - as general
impression.
I have not written about Germans and not about policemen.
(Actually I think the policemen are more or less the same everywhere. )

I have written about how the policework is organized and about the
rights and duties policemen have. These duties are codified in laws and
alike and written down. The policemen is 'Beamter', that is a special
kind of employee of the state, with special duties and rights. They
belong to this status for life and cannot easily be released - once they
are 'Beamter'.
But its difficult to get this status and has certain benefits like
relatively good pensions. So most policemen don't want to get fired
(what is possible, if they do something against their duties).

Your impression of sufficient armament is in fact true. I think police
has enough of what might be useful, but usually don't carry these things
around.

'Germans' is a misnomer itself. Its like 'Americans'. Most citizens of
the USA are not real Americans, but came from Europe, Africa or Asia.
Germany is a bit similar and kind of 'melting pot', only that event of
'mixture' happened much longer ago. So you don't have a 'Typical
German'. That is one of the usual mistakes of US citizens, but doesn't
refer to reality.
Typical US clichés about Germans are often about typical Bavarians in
reality. (Bavaria was separate a kingdom until 1871.)

But I would agree, that Germans on average are not very peaceful. But
Germany is, because the police is worrying about how to defeat the
criminals and not citizens with guns.

Policework seems less noisy here and policemen don't shoot often. (that
is in fact extremely rare, but sometimes happen)
Even this doesn't make it less efficient, but in contrary, they do a
relatively good job. The policemen might not be the best characters, but
they are limited through these duties and their specific status.


TH