On 6/26/2013 10:17 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013 13:16:39 +0100, Channel Jumper
wrote:

A mobile vertical antenna has no gain - gain is only achieved when you
have gain in one direction and rejection in one or more directions.

Wrong. Gain on a mobile antenna can be achieved without
directionality. Just reduce the vertical radiation angle, which puts
more RF towards the horizon, and less RF towards the sky and the
ground.

The only measurable gain would be gain as compared to a dipole or gain
over isotropic.

Yep. That's the way gain is normally measured. dBd or dBi.

1/4 wave antenna's can sometimes produce a better signal locally,
because the radiation pattern is spread out over a larger area.

I've seen that. However, it's usually the result of misusing a "gain"
type antenna, such as a dual band 5/8 ham antenna being used on marine
or commercial frequencies, or a 5/8 commercial antenna, being used on
ham frequencies. Lots of ways to do it wrong. Where a 1/4 wave
antenna really shines is when one needs to cover a wide range of VHF
frequencies, from aircraft to marine.

It will give no distance gain - just local reception.]

Ummm... the range depends more on the terrain than on the antenna.

Because it is all one radio - the reception length does not matter, just
that it is resonant at X mhz - transmit.

VSWR is highly over-rated. The only real reason to keep VSWR low is
that high VSWR will cause the transmitter to protect itself and partly
shut down.

Try this experiment. Take a piece of sheet metal (or aluminum foil
covered cardboard) to act as a ground plane. Insert and SO-239
connector in the middle. Add a length of moderately stiff electrical
wire to the SO-239 that is longer than 1/4 wave at the weather
frequency (162.xxxx). Find a receiver that will measure the actual
receive signal strength. An all mode or AM (not FM) receiver will
work nicely. Extra credit for using a service monitor. Make a
measurement and start cutting the length of the antenna in roughly
1/2" intervals. Measure the receive signal strength.

What I've found when I've done this, is that the antenna gain, which
is what the receive signal level indicates, doesn't change very much
until you get down to about 1/8th wavelength. I modeled this test
using 4NEC2 and found the same thing.

Now, if you believe that the tx and rx performance of an antenna are
identical, this would suggest that you could make the antenna almost
any length, and still have adequate gain and function if you could fix
the VSWR.



I do not doubt your information here. However, it seems to conflict with
my experiences working 75 meters. I work 75 each day using a 75 meter
horizontal loop. I hear the same characters on each day. Often a newbie
pops up with a poor signal. He is in the same area as "the gang" and yet
his signal stinks. Almost invariably we ask him about his G5RV. "Gee
guys how did you know I was using a G5RV?" Poor signals shows up every
time. He is using a dipole that is way too short to resonate on 75
meters. I think they are 82 feet long. It seems to me if VSWR made
little difference, then his 82 foot long dipole on 75 meters should work
just fine. Not trying for a fight, just want an opinion about why we are
hearing this effect. Of course they are using tuners to make a match to
their transceivers.


My own loop is carefully cut for 3.9 mhz. I need a tuner because it is
feed with 600 ohm open wire line and has a nasty VSWR because of
mismatch between the lead-in and antenna. The online calculator for loss
using my antenna system comes out to be 1/2 db. I can live with that.
However, if I put up a loop that was 1/2 the size I need, and then
matched it with a tuner, it would hardly work at all. I know. I tried
loading mine on 160 meters. I could make a match with the tuner. But it
was a bust.

Public service here all uses Larsen antenna's - especially the PA State
Police, and they have very deep pockets.

Obviously, the more expensive the antenna, the better it works.

Shakespeare also makes a decent mobile antenna.

They mostly make marine and military antennas. Their commercial
antennas are overpriced versions of the antennas that they sell to the
military. They're very well built, rugged, but not cheap.
http://shakespeare-military.com

You need a antenna analyzer or a Dip Meter to set to resonance.

Have you ever tried to resonate a 1/4 wave antenna with either of
those? You'll find that it's affected by the position and location of
just about everything within about a 20 ft radius. I run a sweep
generator, directional coupler, detector, and scope combination to
test antennas, but no way would I ever use that to tune the antenna.
Just getting near the antenna ruins the display. Incidentally, for
complex antennas, such as a dual band J-pole, minimum VSWR isn't
always at resonance.

The only thing the SWR meter can do is tell you what is happening in the
feed line.

Wrong. A VSWR meter reading is affected by the xmitter output
impedance, feed line impedance to the VSWR meter, characteristic
impedance of the coax cables(s), feed line impedance after the VSWR
meter, and of course, the antenna impedance. That's actually a
problem because a VSWR meter is affected by literally everything.

Drivel: I run mostly 75 ohm systems (because the coax is cheap and
easy and has less loss). I had to build my own 75 ohm directional
coupler in order to get accurate VSWR measurements. (Yes, Bird makes
a 75 ohm wattmeter 4307, but I don't want to spend the money).