On 9/7/2013 9:46 AM, rickman wrote:
On 9/7/2013 12:11 AM, Steve Crow wrote:

On Fri, 6 Sep 2013, rickman wrote:

-- snip --

Forgive me if it got lost in the noise, which is quite possible, but I
haven't seen where you have spelled out exactly what the intended
application is, so I'm forced to make assumptions.

As for why we're getting worked up about it? Personally, I'm not, but
based on the responses you've received from others in this group, I can
see where you might assume that I am. Let me attempt to explain some
of the, ehem.. hostility?

Amateur radio operators generally take great pride in their licenses
and
the privileges afforded by that license. Likewise, they (we) generally
have a great respect for radio licensing, rules, and regulations,
because one component of the amateur radio service is self-policing of
the regulations and holding each other accountable for operating not
just within the letter of the law but with a high engineering standard.

As a result, when someone such as yourself comes along and has a
genuine
concern and truly wants help with something he doesn't understand, too
many amateur radio operators ("hams") get up on their high horse and
see
it as an opportunity to get all preachy and play FCC Police.

I don't play that game.

But that's why you're getting some of the responses you have.

Yes, I can see that, thanks for the rational response.


You're quite welcome.


Remember, too much of the ham radio crowd falls fully within the
"cranky
old fart" category. Sadly, I'll be there myself in another 30 years
or so!

Yeah, well I *am* a cranky old fart too, hence my responses... There
is no point in arguing something like this. I will very shortly just
quit responding to the other cranks.


Combine those three things and you have quite the quandry. Your
peers in
the hobby are using VHF marine with some degree of success and you
want
to be able to communicate with them. If your intended
communications are
anything like those of your friends, then they, too, are likely
operating in a manner that runs afoul of the law.

Can you be specific here. I have no idea what you are talking about.


Basically, the way I understand what you're after is a way to talk to
your friends/peers/etc within your kayaking hobby that are already
using
VHF marine radio. Which comes across as an assumption on your part that
because others are doing it, it must be legal, which is incorrect.

The info on the FCC site says to me that kayakers *are* using the
"marine VHF" radios legally. I don't know why anyone seems to think
they aren't.


I'm not in a position to decide that, not being well-versed in the
modern-day requirements of the VHF Marine radio service. My point was
that you, as the (prospective) license holder, are responsible for
operating within the FCC rules, and you can't necessarily base your
operating practice on the actions of others.

In fact, I dare say it's a pretty safe bet that a good chunk of the
people on the VHF Marine band aren't licensed at all. It's common within
the radio services where radio gear is readily accessible off-the-shelf,
particularly in retail stores. Illegal unlicensed use is rampant in
GMRS, and we also have problems with certain seasonal users (hunters)
using amateur radio gear in our bands without a license. It's likely
going on in the VHF Marine band, too.

Just be careful out there.

Yes, that is the current state of marine VHF. For certain users in
boats there is *no* licensing requirement. So unlicensed use is rampant
in marine VHF, but it isn't illegal.


Remember, just because everybody else is doing it doesn't make it
legal.

There are a number of radio services that might fit your needs, which
have been discussed elsewhere in this thread, including MURS, GMRS,
FRS,
and, I believe to a lesser extent, amateur radio. However, none of
those
will grant you the type of interoperability you desire.

You left out VHF which is the one of choice. All I need to do is
justify the appropriate license.


No. I didn't. VHF is not a radio service. As was explained elsewhere in
this lengthy thread, VHF refers to the frequency band. There are three
major bands -- HF, VHF, and UHF. Within each band there are a number of
"radio services" -- each with a specific intended application and its
corresponding licensing requirements and operating regulations.

You don't get a "VHF license." You get a license for a radio service
that falls within the VHF bands, and for your purposes that could be
amateur radio (which, among other bands, has frequencies in VHF) and
MURS (which is VHF). The VHF Marine radio service falls within VHF, but
VHF itself is not a radio service.

That might be a part of the big misunderstanding here. Let me know if I
can clarify further.

I'm not sure what your point is exactly. I think you are being a bit
pedantic about my use of VHF as shorthand for "VHF Marine Radio" which
I thought was clear from context at this point. So for the record, I
will say I understand the difference.


Cool. I wanted to reiterate the difference because it is a pretty common
misunderstanding.

I admit that at one point when some were suggesting that I could get a
ham license I didn't realize that would not allow me to talk to the
"marine VHF" radios legally. I now understand that and am not pursuing
the amateur license discussion further.

Awesome. Now expect the rest of the folks here to run you out of the
amateur radio newsgroup.

On a more serious note, I'm always amazed that the response from so many
hams is to immediately suggest ham radio as the ultimate solution to any
communications dilemma, and quite often it is not. This was just one
such instance.

While there's no doubt it's an enjoyable hobby, and you'd probably get
some use out of it, it doesn't address your immediate needs.

(I was never a top performing sales guy at my last job. I wonder why?)


If you still have your heart set on using VHF Marine, the absolute
BEST
thing you could do is to pick up the phone and call the FCC.
1-888-CALL-FCC. You can get in touch with someone there who is
familiar
with the laws surrounding VHF Marine radio licensing and they will be
able to tell you whether you meet the requirements and exactly what
type
of license to get.

Good luck, and have fun on Lake Anna. I wish I were there!

Hey, you are welcome to come up sometime. We should be here this
weekend. Do you kayak or canoe?

I've always wanted to, but it's one of many things on my very long list
of things to try!

You don't even have to come up here. We sometimes go to Richmond to
paddle the James. There is a very active meetup.com kayaking group
called Virgina Paddlers. They have one or two fla****er kayak trips
near Richmond every week in season. It is pretty easy to borrow
equipment most of the time. Kayakers tend to be a very friendly and
generous crowd.

I'll likely end up sitting at home, on my gradually widening ass,
watching infomercials and eating frozen pizza... though it does sound
appealing!

Kayaking is awesome! I have a place on the water and I would take the
canoe out from time to time. But if there is any wind a canoe just gets
blown away. Then I got a kayak and the difference is amazing. In a
canoe you are a foot or so off the water, in a kayak your rear is
actually below the water line and you feel so much more a part of it.

The widening profile is not just mythical and not without consequence.
If you think you might enjoy the water, I strongly encourage you to get
out there and do something. Not only is it fantastic exercise, it is a
very social activity and the people are *great*. Don't just sit
there... Oh, did I mention there are lots of women who kayak? Often
more women than men show up at paddles... can you say that about ham fests?

Thank you for being a rational voice here. I don't think what I want to
do is unreasonable. I am sorry that some folks here responded so
strongly to my comments about the purpose of the marine VHF rules. Maybe
they can take a lesson from you...



My boat sank off Mitkof Island at night in the winter of 1971. There was
moss ice on the water and the air was -20. I had sent a distress call on
the radio. A tug cut its tow and pulled me out of the water and
resuscitated me. When the boat sank and I went into the water it felt
like I had been hit alongside the head with a 2X4. I was mercifully out
of consciousness within seconds. I have to say that it would be a very
quick way to die.

I grew up alongside the Pacific Ocean on the North Coast of Oregon. The
water temperature was in the 40s. We could swim in that surf for about
20 minutes before we turned blue. It was great fun in the surf but
pretty dangerous. We were forbidden by our parents to do this, but being
forbidden made it better. :-)

I can say from my experience that any kind of cold water can kill. When
it is at freezing it kills very quickly, when it is in the 40s it kills
a little more slowly. I think the temperature and time probably could be
made into a formula for death.

Like I said before, if you can keep from being cited by the FCC, a
marine radio would work pretty well for your purposes. It is very short
range and if you are using it in a small lake, the chances of your being
monitored are remote. Also you would not cause interference to anyone else.


Michael