In article , "Ryan, KC8PMX"
writes:

"Dee D. Flint" wrote in message
igy.com...

"Ryan, KC8PMX" wrote in message
...
Just even one more proof of what I mean. Attempting to control free
speech
when a differing opinion occurs....
Why should they have exclusive control of the whole amateur community
when
they only represent (roughly) a quarter of the population?

You keep saying I should join, but why should I?? List specific
reasons,
backed by facts. Not vague generalities or "big-brother/mafioso-like"
reasons? All it is, is a very expensive magazine subscription, so let's
not
kid ourselves.


They are not trying to control free speech. Show your proof that they are
doing so.

They are by virtue of a member attempting to do so. Either a member is or
is not a representative of the arrl.

I'm not sure what you're saying, Ryan.

I don't agree with all ARRL policies, but I don't see ARRL trying to control my
free speech. Sure, it would be great if all members agreed on all issues but
that's simply not going to happen unless there's a mechanism like NCI has to
eliminate those who disagree.

Yes, ARRL says they represent their membership - just like your congresscritter
says he preresents his/her constituents. Does your congressperson agree with
you on every single issue?

They establish policies based on the input of their membership as
does any other organization. They then carry through on that policy.
Naturally not every member agrees with it but if we had to have a
unanimous
consensus nothing would ever get done. And they have no reason or
obligation to pay any attention to the opinions of non-members.

As well as they should not be representing "non-members" either.

Yet nonmembers get the benefit of ARRL actions.

The ARRL
is responsible for the state of amateur radio it is today, as they have
convinced the FCC that they are the "only voice."

Where do you get that idea? Read the Report and Order for the 2000
restructuring - FCC addresses many groups and individuals' positions, not just
ARRL's.


They do not have nor try to have exclusive control of the whole amateur
community. Show your proof that they do.

Let me dig up a QST magazine.... said it right on the front cover.....

What does it say?

They establish goals based on
what their membership wants. That is what any organization does. Again
they have no reason or obligation to establish their goals based on the
opinions of non-members.

Only if one chooses to request that information beased upon the decision
whether or not to join. Its like going to a car dealership and the car
salesperson stating that you will be buying a vehicle, but not tell you
anything about it.

Not at all. You can ask Hq for their policy. You can email your director. I
betcha if you emailed your director and asked his/her view on some issue, and
mentioned you were considering joining, you'd get an answer.

On the codetest issue, ARRL has been procodetest for a long time because that
has been the position of the majority of the membership. Maybe that's changed,
maybe it hasn't, but would you expect ARRL to go with the minority position?

You seem to expect them to roll over and adopt YOUR opinion. That's
unrealistic. Whether you join or not is your business of course. But
unless you are a member, you have no right to expect to control their
policies or for them to listen to your opinions and adopt your opinions.
If
you want to change them, join. If you aren't willing to join, don't
expect
to change them. That's pretty simple.

Never did I state they should roll over to my opinions exclusively, but my
opinions are not singular, there are many more that hold the same position
on a variety of issues. If they are claiming control of amateur radio as a
whole, not just the membership, then my opinion should count in that
respect. I can tell you however, there are alot of the opinions I hold that
are held by a ton of people with ham licenses.

Sure. And there are a ton of people who hold different opinions. That's the
nature of the game.

I know why I am a member. They can do things that I cannot.
1) Take the current BPL situation. They have the finances and facilities
to do the research that I can't afford. That is but one of many things.

Yeah.... they must be the only one's too eh?

Who else is doing what W1RFI & Co. did? A 121 page engineering analysis of the
impact of BPL on typical amateur stations, including measurements and
observations of actual installations, put together on short notice. Betcha Ed
wasn't working 40 hour weeks to put that baby together.

And if ya think BPL is an HF-only problem, note that it goes as high as 80 MHz
on fundamentals, and that outfits like Cingular are concerned about
interference from harmonics messing up their 800+ MHz services.

2) Product tests/reviews. I can't afford to buy all the test equipment,
every new radio, antenna, etc and run my own comparisons.
... and so on.

Again, CQ magazine does that as well.

Not the way ARRL does it. I've been to the ARRL lab, inside the screen room,
talked to the folks who do the testing. They buy actual production units
through regular channels and beat the #$%^& out of them in the lab. The
Extended Report (available to members only) goes even farther than the mag
report.

Does CQ even have a lab?

Granted, I will wholeheartedly admit
that QST is a decent magazine, even though it is getting thinner and
thinner, but it is a good magazine.

I've got every QST from the late 1920s to today, and they are getting fatter.

My only observation is that it should
also include some technical material for the newer hams, as not all of us
are Extra class electrical/electronics engineers. Although I am above the
"simple circuit" stage, I am however not the highest qualified in the
electronics side of this hobby. I am man enough to admit I need to learn
more.

The point of QST is the new and novel. The Handbook and other publications are
for the standard practices. There's also QEX.

Again, You keep saying I should join, but why should I?? List specific
reasons, backed by facts. Not vague generalities or
"big-brother/mafioso-like" reasons?

OK, here ya go:

1) Like it or not, ARRL is the only general-purpose membership org we hams have
in the USA. No other group is going to step up to the plate on issues like BPL,
CC&Rs, PRB-1, product testing, etc. You may not see those issues as affecting
you, but in the long run they affect all of us.

Heck, I remember a time when major manufacturers would put out ham gear with
known shortcomings because they knew nobody would really put the stuff to a
real test. Not any more!

2) One of the things that has kept ham radio going all these years is the
presence of strong national societies. The FCC and ITU have no vested interest
in keeping amateur radio alive and healthy. ARRL does.

All it is, is a very expensive magazine
subscription, so let's
not kid ourselves.

How much is it - $39 a year, single year? How much is CQ or any other mag? How
much are most small-circulation non-industry publications?

If there are some actual reasons listed, I might
consider joining. If not, then that sums it up pretty good.

I can honestly say that you are one of the few people that I have met on
here, and I like you as a person. But there is one thing as a fact I know
for sure, we will never agree on is the ARRL. I do not take the ARRL as
blind faith, or like a religion.

Nor do I. Some of their positions are downright bizarre.

I do not put the ARRL in a position close
to god as some put here and elsewhere. I do not consider the arrl like a
religion or a church organization as some people equate it to. I will be
one of the first people to join if there ever becomes a group like the
United States Amateur Radio Association or the National Radio Relay League
or any other similar group. (don't know if either of those exist.....)

Over the years there have been groups which tried to be an ARRL alternative.
None ever got more than a few thousand members, and all quietly disappeared
after a few years, usually because they could not achieve critical mass.

Heck, how big is NCI - 4000 members, worldwide, with a mandate to disappear
when code testing does? How about NCVEC - can anyone join and elect policy
makers?

The
arrl needs the competition to keep them in check. Hell, Republicrats claim
competition is a GOOD thing. (except when it encroaches on "their"
businesses.)

Right - and so we have the airline industry tottering on the verge of
bankruptcy even with megabuck bailouts, the telecom industry bubble, the Enron
mess, the Northeast blackout....

73 de Jim, N2EY
Have a great Labor Day Weekend!