On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 17:03:39 -0500, "Richard Fry"
wrote:

"Owen Duffy" wrote:
You talk of the "reflected wave" as if it has inertia, that it must
keep travelling when it reaches the junction of the feedline and the
antenna? You are not alone in speaking that way, but thinking that way
will get in the way of understanding what is happening. Next thing,
you will be thinking that the reflected wave must travel back to the
PA anode and will be absorbed there causing overheating.
_______

If you write of reflected power existing on the transmission line between
the tx output connector and the antenna input connector, then yes -- with
sufficient tx output power and a poor enough match at the antenna feedpoint,
that reflected power can cause transmission line and/or tx PA component
failure.

The mechanism is not "that the reflected wave must travel back to the
PA anode and will be absorbed there causing overheating".

Take an example of the 50 ohms load discussed, and an electrical half
wave of 70 ohm line connected to a transmitter designed for a 50 ohm
load. The transmitter behaves exactly as if that line were 50 ohms.
Though there is a reflected travelling wave on the line, it does not
travel back to the PA anode where it is absorbed and converted to
heat. At the tx end of the line, the forward and reflected wave
components resolve to a 50+j0 load, and the transmitter sees the same
50 ohm load as it would were 50 ohm line used. Increasing power or
increasing line Zo for a higher VSWR will not change the outcome of
this example.

Owen
--

Owen Duffy wrote:
Take an example of the 50 ohms load discussed, and an electrical half
wave of 70 ohm line connected to a transmitter designed for a 50 ohm
load. The transmitter behaves exactly as if that line were 50 ohms.
Though there is a reflected travelling wave on the line, it does not
travel back to the PA anode where it is absorbed and converted to
heat.

Of course not. Destructive interference redirects the energy
back toward the load at the impedance discontinuity. The same
thing happens with a 1/4WL thin-film on non-reflective glass.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"Owen Duffy" wrote
The mechanism is not "that the reflected wave must travel back to
the PA anode and will be absorbed there causing overheating".
Take an example of the 50 ohms load discussed, and an electrical half
wave of 70 ohm line connected to a transmitter designed for a 50 ohm
load. The transmitter behaves exactly as if that line were 50 ohms.
Though there is a reflected travelling wave on the line, it does not
travel back to the PA anode where it is absorbed and converted to
heat.
____________

Really, the mechanism is there -- only the unique circumstance you describe
protects the PA from seeing reflected power in such cases. Other line
lengths in this scenario could stress PA components beyond their ratings.

And even if the PA saw no reflected power because of a fortunate length of
transmission line connecting it to a mismatched antenna/load, that reflected
power still exists in the transmission line, and may cause its failure.

Manufacturers of the rigid coaxial line used in broadcast stations (e.g.,
Dielectric) require derating its maximum power rating inversely by the value
of the SWR existing in it . A power derating factor related to SWR also
applies to Andrew Heliax® and RG-type coax line. Deliberately setting up,
or tolerating reflected power on a transmission line is not done without
risk.

RF

Richard Fry wrote:
Really, the mechanism is there -- only the unique circumstance you
describe protects the PA from seeing reflected power in such cases.
Other line lengths in this scenario could stress PA components beyond
their ratings.

Yes, the exposure of the PA to reflected power depends
upon the phase of the reflected wave referenced to the
phase of the source wave. SWR doesn't tell the whole
story because phase is not reported by the SWR
measurement.

What is happening with 1/2WL of Z0=600 ohm feedline
connected to a 50 ohm load on one end and a 50 ohm
source on the other end is interference. Destructive
interference toward the source causes constructive
interference toward the load and the reflected energy
at the source is re-directed back toward the load.

What we want to avoid in our antenna systems is
constructive interference toward the source.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

"Cecil Moore"
What is happening with 1/2WL of Z0=600 ohm feedline
connected to a 50 ohm load on one end and a 50 ohm
source on the other end is interference. Destructive
interference toward the source causes constructive
interference toward the load and the reflected energy
at the source is re-directed back toward the load.

What we want to avoid in our antenna systems is
constructive interference toward the source.
______________

Whether the source sees that reflected power or not, that reflected power is
stressing the transmission line -- regardless of the electrical length of
that line at the operating frequency.

IOW, for these unique conditions the source may be unaffected by the
reflected power in the line, but the line itself is still stressed by that
power -- and possibly to the point of failure.

RF

Richard Fry wrote:
Whether the source sees that reflected power or not, that reflected
power is stressing the transmission line -- regardless of the electrical
length of that line at the operating frequency.

Didn't mean to imply that I was disagreeing with you in
any way. Given the forward and reflected power readings
for any particular line, the stresses can be calculated.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 06:48:57 -0500, "Richard Fry"
wrote:

"Owen Duffy" wrote
The mechanism is not "that the reflected wave must travel back to
the PA anode and will be absorbed there causing overheating".
Take an example of the 50 ohms load discussed, and an electrical half
wave of 70 ohm line connected to a transmitter designed for a 50 ohm
load. The transmitter behaves exactly as if that line were 50 ohms.
Though there is a reflected travelling wave on the line, it does not
travel back to the PA anode where it is absorbed and converted to
heat.
____________

Really, the mechanism is there -- only the unique circumstance you describe
protects the PA from seeing reflected power in such cases. Other line
lengths in this scenario could stress PA components beyond their ratings.


Richard,

There is not such a mechanism in the general case, the example I gave
shows that the reflected wave does not necessarily travel back to the
source where it is absorbed.

If you re-read my words "Next thing, you will be thinking that the
reflected wave must travel back to the PA anode and will be absorbed
there causing overheating." Remembering the context was a wave on the
dipole reflected from the o/c end, and the word "must" was used to
mean "necessarily".

Sure,transmission lines with VSWR may transform impedance, have higher
losses (if they are long enough), operate at higher voltages in places
(if they are long enough), operate with higher currents in places (if
they are long enough). Nothing I have said is in conflict with that or
suggests otherwise.

Transmitters operated at other than their rated load impedance may
operate at higher voltages, higher currents, different power etc and
may damage components. Nothing I have said is in conflict with that or
suggests otherwise.

But, the mechanism is not that the reflected wave *necessarily*
travels all the way back to the PA anode by virtue of some kind of
momentum (as sometimes expressed by some amateurs).

In the case raised by the OP, the reflected wave on the dipole and the
forward wave resolve (as in resolution of phasors) to an impedance of
50+j0 (OP's hypothetical example), and the constraints / conditions at
the feedline / feedpoint junction are fully satisfied with no
reflected wave on the feedline. (I used the term resolve, Cecil must
call it destructive interference.) The reflected wave on the dipole
does not have a momentum that *must* carry it to the PA anode to be
absorbed there.

Owen
--

"Owen Duffy" wrote:
But, the mechanism is not that the reflected wave *necessarily*
travels all the way back to the PA anode by virtue of some kind of
momentumne / feedpoint junction are fully satisfied with no
reflected wave on the feedline. (I used the term resolve, Cecil must
call it destructive interference.) The reflected wave on the dipole
does not have a momentum that *must* carry it to the PA anode to be
absorbed there.
_____________

However, any amount of reflected power from the termination at the far end
of a transmission line has a greater chance of damaging tx PA components,
and of stress/failure to the transmission line itself than if the reflected
power from the antenna/load was zero, regardless of the electrical length of
said transmission line.

This reality of physics is not subject to debate, don't you agree?

RF

On Tue, 5 Sep 2006 18:04:36 -0500, "Richard Fry"
wrote:

"Owen Duffy" wrote:
But, the mechanism is not that the reflected wave *necessarily*
travels all the way back to the PA anode by virtue of some kind of
momentumne / feedpoint junction are fully satisfied with no
reflected wave on the feedline. (I used the term resolve, Cecil must
call it destructive interference.) The reflected wave on the dipole
does not have a momentum that *must* carry it to the PA anode to be
absorbed there.
_____________

However, any amount of reflected power from the termination at the far end
of a transmission line has a greater chance of damaging tx PA components,
and of stress/failure to the transmission line itself than if the reflected
power from the antenna/load was zero, regardless of the electrical length of
said transmission line.

If it makes you more comfortable to restrict your solutions to those
with flat lines (VSWR~=1) then that is ok with me, but that does not
invalidate other approaches. Antenna systems incorporating lines with
high VSWR do not necessarily subject the PA components to any
different risk, or transmission lines to excessive stresses, it is a
matter of design... and the design is more complex than buying a tx
intended for 50ohm load, some 50ohm coax and a 50ohm antenna and
plugging them all together.

Owen
--

Richard Fry wrote:

However, any amount of reflected power from the termination at the far
end of a transmission line has a greater chance of damaging tx PA
components, and of stress/failure to the transmission line itself than
if the reflected power from the antenna/load was zero, regardless of the
electrical length of said transmission line.

This reality of physics is not subject to debate, don't you agree?

Suppose I have a 50 ohm antenna fed with a one wavelength, 50 ohm
transmission line. No reflected power, no damage.

Now I replace the 50 ohm one wavelength line with a 300 ohm one
wavelength line. For 100 watts delivered to the load, the forward power
on the line is 204 watts and the reverse power is 104 watts. All that
reverse power could do a lot of damage, then?

So I guess I should replace the 50 ohm load with a 300 ohm one. Then
there won't be any reflected power, and the transmitter should be ok. Right?

After all, it's physics.

Roy Lewallen, W7EL