Owen Duffy wrote:
Some suggest coating the ladder line with various forms of waxes, eg
silicon car polish for various reasons, including minimising the
change to the line characteristics with precipitation.

I have a spray can of NAPA MAC'S Silicone spray. It says:
"Waterproofs and Insulates". I've got a thunderstorm on
the way and just sprayed about 2 feet of my 450 ohm ladder-
line with it. I'll see if I can tell where the silicone
spray is and if it has any visible effect on the water.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 18:25:55 -0400, Mike Coslo
wrote:


I don't know that it is fair to say that "Ladder line sucks", but it
is well known that it is adversely affected by moisture. Ladder line
is not so good wet or dry as to disregard its losses in all situations
(ie in general).

I wonder what the exact mechanism is? PE has some decent water
absorption characteristics, 24 hour tests show almost no absorption for
low density, and none for the high density and up versions.

I don't recall seeing suggestion that the mechanism is a change to the
PE due to absorption of water.

The water on the surface of the PE is immersed in the E and H fields,
and is likely to change the RLGC characteristics at a frequency.

I think Wes' work was valuable in demonstrating that the changes are
not lossless, even if it is not practical to estimate the magnitude of
the changes because of uncertainty in the "wet environment" at any
point in time.

So, we know that the changes in loading that we observe with an ATU
are likely to have an increased line loss due to the water. That loss
warrants consideration, a reason to consider other line constructions
in certain environments.

Wes and I discussed inclusion of his "wet" figures in my line loss
calculator at http://www.vk1od.net/tl/tllc.php . Wes' preference was
to not include them, I am happy with that in that you could read too
much into the calculated results because of the lack of standardised
"wetness" in the real world.

Owen
--

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 18:18:25 -0400, Mike Coslo
wrote:

Wes Stewart wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:24:59 -0700, Danny Richardson
wrote:


On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 02:48:16 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:


Danny Richardson wrote:

Just drop by my qth anytime between November and May.

How do you keep the water on the feedline? Mine
always beads up and falls to the ground.


Here's a photo of a piece of Danny's line (Wireman 552), after it set
around in the Arizona 5% humidity for a while It was still green when
I got it.

http://www.k6mhe.com/n7ws/MossyLine.jpg

What do you suppose the dielectic properties are when that stuff
totally bridges the line and is wet?

Seems as if some of us are taking special circumstances and applying
them to all cases. I have the same type of line, and after several
years, it's still glossy, and the water beads up on it.


The questioner asked how to keep the water on the line. An answer was
provided. No mention was made that this was a universal problem.

I return you to your regularly scheduled catfight.

I will return to the woodwork.

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 23:01:06 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:

I have a spray can of NAPA MAC'S Silicone spray. It says:
"Waterproofs and Insulates". I've got a thunderstorm on
the way and just sprayed about 2 feet of my 450 ohm ladder-
line with it. I'll see if I can tell where the silicone
spray is and if it has any visible effect on the water.

I would suspect that any oil or wax compounds would be a tad sticky
and may, over time, accumulate more dust on the surface. That, in
turn, could in be a good rooting medium for moss and/or mildew to
form?

By the way I did spray my ladder line with silicone spray when I
originally put it up.

Danny

Owen Duffy wrote:
I think Wes' work was valuable in demonstrating that the changes are
not lossless, ...

I think Reg would have chimed in about now reminding
us that 50% loss is only 1/2 of an S-Unit. :-)
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Danny Richardson wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 23:01:06 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:

I have a spray can of NAPA MAC'S Silicone spray. It says:
"Waterproofs and Insulates". I've got a thunderstorm on
the way and just sprayed about 2 feet of my 450 ohm ladder-
line with it. I'll see if I can tell where the silicone
spray is and if it has any visible effect on the water.

I would suspect that any oil or wax compounds would be a tad sticky
and may, over time, accumulate more dust on the surface. That, in
turn, could in be a good rooting medium for moss and/or mildew to
form?

By the way I did spray my ladder line with silicone spray when I
originally put it up.

I just took a look at my wet ladder-line with a flashlight.
I cannot tell where I sprayed it with silicone.
--
73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com

Danny Richardson wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 23:01:06 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:


I have a spray can of NAPA MAC'S Silicone spray. It says:
"Waterproofs and Insulates". I've got a thunderstorm on
the way and just sprayed about 2 feet of my 450 ohm ladder-
line with it. I'll see if I can tell where the silicone
spray is and if it has any visible effect on the water.


I would suspect that any oil or wax compounds would be a tad sticky
and may, over time, accumulate more dust on the surface. That, in
turn, could in be a good rooting medium for moss and/or mildew to
form?

By the way I did spray my ladder line with silicone spray when I
originally put it up.


Aha! I was troubled with how you got mold or moss or anything to stick
to PE. I believe you are correct in your suspicions. One of PE's main
draws is it's inertness, and it is a real bear trying to get anything to
adhere to it. There is some possibility that the spray may have
contributed to what appears to be pitting on the line.

Certainly something troubles me with the idea that we can test
something under conditions where we apply chemistry to alter a
fundamental property of the material. (I'm referring to the wetting
agent tests) I believe that the tests do show adequately how ladder line
performs when covered with wetting agent and water. And that we don't
want to do that! ;^)

- 73 de mike KB3EIA -

Wes Stewart wrote:
On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 18:18:25 -0400, Mike Coslo
wrote:


Wes Stewart wrote:

On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 20:24:59 -0700, Danny Richardson
wrote:



On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 02:48:16 GMT, Cecil Moore
wrote:



Danny Richardson wrote:


Just drop by my qth anytime between November and May.

How do you keep the water on the feedline? Mine
always beads up and falls to the ground.


Here's a photo of a piece of Danny's line (Wireman 552), after it set
around in the Arizona 5% humidity for a while It was still green when
I got it.

http://www.k6mhe.com/n7ws/MossyLine.jpg

What do you suppose the dielectic properties are when that stuff
totally bridges the line and is wet?

Seems as if some of us are taking special circumstances and applying
them to all cases. I have the same type of line, and after several
years, it's still glossy, and the water beads up on it.



The questioner asked how to keep the water on the line. An answer was
provided. No mention was made that this was a universal problem.


I return you to your regularly scheduled catfight.

Not trying to insult anyone here, Wes. Just trying to figure out what
is going on.

And after a little discourse, we find out that Daniel sprayed silicon
spray of some sort on the line. That starts to make some sense of why he
had a problem with the line.

I'd wager his mold, moss, or mildew problem has more to do with his
unapproved use of chemistry on the line.

- 73 de Mike KB3EIA -

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 20:58:12 -0400, Mike Coslo
wrote:

Aha! I was troubled with how you got mold or moss or anything to stick
to PE. I believe you are correct in your suspicions. One of PE's main
draws is it's inertness, and it is a real bear trying to get anything to
adhere to it. There is some possibility that the spray may have
contributed to what appears to be pitting on the line.

Certainly something troubles me with the idea that we can test
something under conditions where we apply chemistry to alter a
fundamental property of the material. (I'm referring to the wetting
agent tests) I believe that the tests do show adequately how ladder line
performs when covered with wetting agent and water. And that we don't
want to do that! ;^)

- 73 de mike KB3EIA -

Well Mike, along my experience with ladder line there is also Roy's
and Wes's measurements. Based upon that, for me, I'm off the stuff.

My present open line setup is appears to be working fine. No
detectable moss, mildew or anything else that I can detect.

One can go on forever trying to justify one way or the other, but thus
far, wet ladder or ribbon line has shown not to be the best route to
go - from three different sources. If you have something to the
contrary I certainly would be interested in hearing about it.

To each his own.

Danny, K6MHE

On Sat, 23 Sep 2006 21:29:39 -0400, Mike Coslo
wrote:

I'd wager his mold, moss, or mildew problem has more to do with his
unapproved use of chemistry on the line.

Hi Mike,

This doesn't explain mold, moss, or mildew that naturally occurs under
very similar circumstances.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC, Rain City