Dave wrote:

I simply didn't want to deal with any 'VSWR' issues from a dipole
configuration. So, a simple end fed wire meets my needs.


the way I understand it, the sense antenna is supposed to pick up the noise
better than the signal you wish to receive. So VSWR most likely would'nt
matter.




Sun Tzu wrote:

How did you manage to find this arrangement? trial & error? by accident?
I keep trying different things but maybe I am "thinking" too much, maybe
its simpler than what I am trying to do.

Dave wrote:


Mine seems to work fine with about 25 feet of wire simply run out the
window and about 4 inches above the ground along the foundation of the
house.

[End fed random wire approach]

/s/ DD

Sun Tzu wrote:


I use an Timewave ANC-4 to reduce noise on the low bands at my location.
On 40 & 160 meters I can reduce the noise almost to S1, but on 75 meters
I can only reduce it to S4-5.
I use a noise sense antenna which is a dipole 4ft on each side about 4
inches off the ground and parallel to the power and telephone lines.
Anyone have one of these units and having any ideas I might try to
reduce 75 meters to a lower S-meter reading?

All my low band antennas are verticals.

Stan
AH6JR

"Sun Tzu" schreef in bericht
...
Jan Simons PA0SIM wrote:

Reading the schematics it is possible that the ANC-4 does not
fully cover the 360 degrees phase shift, just like the MFJ-1025.
But it is also possible that you experience more than one noise
source on 75 mtrs. A noise canceller (with two inputs/antennas)
can cancel only one noise source.

I have written about noise cancelling on my site, e.g.:
http://www.pa0sim.nl/Phaser%2080%20-%2010%20meters.htm
May be it can help.

73 es gl de Jan PA0SIM


Nice website, have you considered modifying the existing units (MFJ &
ANC)
to do what you have shown? Your idea would make either of these 2 units
much
better.

By the way, I took the sense antenna which is a short dipole and I made
one
leg vertical and the other horizontal. Now I have almost no noise on 75
meters. I haqve been playing around with this for awhile and it was either
all vertical or all horizontal. Now with this configuration the weak
signals can be heard.


Stan
AH6JR


Hi Stan,
I have considered it, but sometimes it is easier and better to start fresh.
First question is always: what phaser/noise canceller do you really want?
What do you expect from it?
Looking at the design of the MFJ-1025, it would take to much mods to
realize my needs.

When one of the antennas doesn´t hear the noise source, you don´t need
a phaser. But of course that antenna still has to hear your wanted signals.
Using a small loop antenna it is sometimes possible to null the noise
source.
I think playing with a short dipole, as you did, is the same as nulling with
small loops.

73 de Jan PA0SIM

Jan Simons PA0SIM wrote:


"Sun Tzu" schreef in bericht
...
Jan Simons PA0SIM wrote:

Reading the schematics it is possible that the ANC-4 does not
fully cover the 360 degrees phase shift, just like the MFJ-1025.
But it is also possible that you experience more than one noise
source on 75 mtrs. A noise canceller (with two inputs/antennas)
can cancel only one noise source.

I have written about noise cancelling on my site, e.g.:
http://www.pa0sim.nl/Phaser%2080%20-%2010%20meters.htm
May be it can help.

73 es gl de Jan PA0SIM


Nice website, have you considered modifying the existing units (MFJ &
ANC)
to do what you have shown? Your idea would make either of these 2 units
much
better.

By the way, I took the sense antenna which is a short dipole and I made
one
leg vertical and the other horizontal. Now I have almost no noise on 75
meters. I haqve been playing around with this for awhile and it was
either all vertical or all horizontal. Now with this configuration the
weak signals can be heard.


Stan
AH6JR


Hi Stan,
I have considered it, but sometimes it is easier and better to start
fresh. First question is always: what phaser/noise canceller do you really
want? What do you expect from it?
Looking at the design of the MFJ-1025, it would take to much mods to
realize my needs.

When one of the antennas doesn´t hear the noise source, you don´t need
a phaser. But of course that antenna still has to hear your wanted
signals. Using a small loop antenna it is sometimes possible to null the
noise source.
I think playing with a short dipole, as you did, is the same as nulling
with small loops.

73 de Jan PA0SIM


I have the ANC-4 which works well. This new sense antenna is really good, as
I can hear signals down to S-2 on 75 meters. I guess if I had to do it I
would prefer to modify the ANC-4 as its a quality unit, not perfect but it
is built well.

If you would have any ideas as to modifying the ANC-4 I would'nt mind
working with you on this project. But I will leave that one up to you.

Hopefully I will be able to hear you in the contest this weekend on 75
meters!

Good Luck in the contest my friend!

"Sun Tzu" schreef in bericht
news:ruCdnermL6SEDd_YnZ2dnUVZ_uydnZ2d@hawaiiantel. net...
Jan Simons PA0SIM wrote:


"Sun Tzu" schreef in bericht
...
Jan Simons PA0SIM wrote:

Reading the schematics it is possible that the ANC-4 does not
fully cover the 360 degrees phase shift, just like the MFJ-1025.
But it is also possible that you experience more than one noise
source on 75 mtrs. A noise canceller (with two inputs/antennas)
can cancel only one noise source.

I have written about noise cancelling on my site, e.g.:
http://www.pa0sim.nl/Phaser%2080%20-%2010%20meters.htm
May be it can help.

73 es gl de Jan PA0SIM


Nice website, have you considered modifying the existing units (MFJ &
ANC)
to do what you have shown? Your idea would make either of these 2 units
much
better.

By the way, I took the sense antenna which is a short dipole and I made
one
leg vertical and the other horizontal. Now I have almost no noise on 75
meters. I haqve been playing around with this for awhile and it was
either all vertical or all horizontal. Now with this configuration the
weak signals can be heard.


Stan
AH6JR


Hi Stan,
I have considered it, but sometimes it is easier and better to start
fresh. First question is always: what phaser/noise canceller do you
really
want? What do you expect from it?
Looking at the design of the MFJ-1025, it would take to much mods to
realize my needs.

When one of the antennas doesnt hear the noise source, you dont need
a phaser. But of course that antenna still has to hear your wanted
signals. Using a small loop antenna it is sometimes possible to null the
noise source.
I think playing with a short dipole, as you did, is the same as nulling
with small loops.

73 de Jan PA0SIM


I have the ANC-4 which works well. This new sense antenna is really good,
as
I can hear signals down to S-2 on 75 meters. I guess if I had to do it I
would prefer to modify the ANC-4 as its a quality unit, not perfect but it
is built well.

If you would have any ideas as to modifying the ANC-4 I would'nt mind
working with you on this project. But I will leave that one up to you.

Hopefully I will be able to hear you in the contest this weekend on 75
meters!

Good Luck in the contest my friend!

Sri, I prefer my Digital Signal Processing route with the two Elecraft K2
receivers.
DSP makes an ideal phaser. So no need here for a "better" analog one.
And DSP gives me a lot more tricks to reduce interference and noise.

73 es gl de Jan PA0SIM

I guess its residential on 1/3 of an acre lots. Not real tight.
But the utilities are above ground and that probably doesnt help.

not sure if anyone realizes this but i've noticed that the adj controls
can sometimes be very very sensitive sometimes i've found that a hair
kills the noise and if you blinked at that moment you missed it

dunno maybe it's just me

maybe you have a bad or dirty control? OR as Jan wrote previously the
variable resistor is not linear and the abrupt change you see it due to the
variable resistor.

the control is good, it is on all the units prob a non linear
pot(resistor) linear taper? not audio taper or what ever but they all
seem to work like that

on certain kinds of noise it sure works well

ml

"ml" schreef in bericht
...




I guess its residential on 1/3 of an acre lots. Not real tight.
But the utilities are above ground and that probably doesnt help.

not sure if anyone realizes this but i've noticed that the adj controls
can sometimes be very very sensitive sometimes i've found that a
hair
kills the noise and if you blinked at that moment you missed it

dunno maybe it's just me

maybe you have a bad or dirty control? OR as Jan wrote previously the
variable resistor is not linear and the abrupt change you see it due to
the
variable resistor.

the control is good, it is on all the units prob a non linear
pot(resistor) linear taper? not audio taper or what ever but they all
seem to work like that

on certain kinds of noise it sure works well

The phase control variable resistor is linear, but the relation between
phase
difference and resistor value is very non linear!
This makes it difficult to tune to the exact phase for deep noise
cancelling.
See: http://www.pa0sim.nl/Phaser%2080%20-%2010%20meters.htm

That is why I use phase (and gain) control spreading.

73 Jan PA0SIM

Jan Simons PA0SIM wrote:


"Sun Tzu" schreef in bericht
news:ruCdnermL6SEDd_YnZ2dnUVZ_uydnZ2d@hawaiiantel. net...
Jan Simons PA0SIM wrote:


"Sun Tzu" schreef in bericht
...
Jan Simons PA0SIM wrote:

Reading the schematics it is possible that the ANC-4 does not
fully cover the 360 degrees phase shift, just like the MFJ-1025.
But it is also possible that you experience more than one noise
source on 75 mtrs. A noise canceller (with two inputs/antennas)
can cancel only one noise source.

I have written about noise cancelling on my site, e.g.:
http://www.pa0sim.nl/Phaser%2080%20-%2010%20meters.htm
May be it can help.

73 es gl de Jan PA0SIM


Nice website, have you considered modifying the existing units (MFJ &
ANC)
to do what you have shown? Your idea would make either of these 2 units
much
better.

By the way, I took the sense antenna which is a short dipole and I made
one
leg vertical and the other horizontal. Now I have almost no noise on 75
meters. I haqve been playing around with this for awhile and it was
either all vertical or all horizontal. Now with this configuration the
weak signals can be heard.


Stan
AH6JR


Hi Stan,
I have considered it, but sometimes it is easier and better to start
fresh. First question is always: what phaser/noise canceller do you
really
want? What do you expect from it?
Looking at the design of the MFJ-1025, it would take to much mods to
realize my needs.

When one of the antennas doesnt hear the noise source, you dont need
a phaser. But of course that antenna still has to hear your wanted
signals. Using a small loop antenna it is sometimes possible to null the
noise source.
I think playing with a short dipole, as you did, is the same as nulling
with small loops.

73 de Jan PA0SIM


I have the ANC-4 which works well. This new sense antenna is really good,
as
I can hear signals down to S-2 on 75 meters. I guess if I had to do it I
would prefer to modify the ANC-4 as its a quality unit, not perfect but
it is built well.

If you would have any ideas as to modifying the ANC-4 I would'nt mind
working with you on this project. But I will leave that one up to you.

Hopefully I will be able to hear you in the contest this weekend on 75
meters!

Good Luck in the contest my friend!

Sri, I prefer my Digital Signal Processing route with the two Elecraft K2
receivers.
DSP makes an ideal phaser. So no need here for a "better" analog one.
And DSP gives me a lot more tricks to reduce interference and noise.

73 es gl de Jan PA0SIM


May I ask what the tricks are?

.........
If you would have any ideas as to modifying the ANC-4 I would'nt mind
working with you on this project. But I will leave that one up to you.
.........

Sri, I prefer my Digital Signal Processing route with the two Elecraft K2
receivers.
DSP makes an ideal phaser. So no need here for a "better" analog one.
And DSP gives me a lot more tricks to reduce interference and noise.

73 es gl de Jan PA0SIM


May I ask what the tricks are?

Of course:

1) With only one receiver and one antenna:
- Noise Reduction and Noise Blanker tricks as you see now implemented
in the new DSP transceivers like the Orion and the SDR1000 (all the DSP
must be in the AGC loop!).
- In DSP it is possible to make very small bandwidth CW filters.
- For better CW readability one can use binaural or panoramic reception.
- DSP makes multi notch filtering possible (SSB)
- In DSP it is possible to realize almost every AGC you can think of.
(a better AGC can improve weak signal reception)

2) with two (or more) antennas and two phase coherent receivers
- In DSP it is possible to realize the ideal phaser.
- An alternative is "effective directivity" by frequency component selection
see: http://home.plex.nl/~jmsi/Effective%...20by%20DSP.htm
(the audio samples show what is possible with it)
- True Diversity Reception, because both receivers can be made identical.
- Enhanced Stereo Reception can improve readability for CW/SSB signals.

3) and the tricks I dont know yet. I am not a DSP guru.
For example: (Blind) Source Seperation?
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_separation
Rather complex stuff HI.

Don´t forget that not all DSP in the new tranceivers is well implemented.
Important is to recognize that DSP has a bright future for us.

73 de Jan PA0SIM

Jan Simons PA0SIM wrote:

.........
If you would have any ideas as to modifying the ANC-4 I would'nt mind
working with you on this project. But I will leave that one up to you.
.........

Sri, I prefer my Digital Signal Processing route with the two Elecraft
K2 receivers.
DSP makes an ideal phaser. So no need here for a "better" analog one.
And DSP gives me a lot more tricks to reduce interference and noise.

73 es gl de Jan PA0SIM


May I ask what the tricks are?

Of course:

1) With only one receiver and one antenna:
- Noise Reduction and Noise Blanker tricks as you see now implemented
in the new DSP transceivers like the Orion and the SDR1000 (all the DSP
must be in the AGC loop!).
- In DSP it is possible to make very small bandwidth CW filters.
- For better CW readability one can use binaural or panoramic reception.
- DSP makes multi notch filtering possible (SSB)
- In DSP it is possible to realize almost every AGC you can think of.
(a better AGC can improve weak signal reception)

2) with two (or more) antennas and two phase coherent receivers
- In DSP it is possible to realize the ideal phaser.
- An alternative is "effective directivity" by frequency component
selection
see: http://home.plex.nl/~jmsi/Effective%...20by%20DSP.htm
(the audio samples show what is possible with it)
- True Diversity Reception, because both receivers can be made identical.
- Enhanced Stereo Reception can improve readability for CW/SSB signals.

3) and the tricks I dont know yet. I am not a DSP guru.
For example: (Blind) Source Seperation?
see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_separation
Rather complex stuff HI.

Don´t forget that not all DSP in the new tranceivers is well implemented.
Important is to recognize that DSP has a bright future for us.

73 de Jan PA0SIM


I have an SDR-1000, not really excited with the way it works. Especially the
noise blankers. Not sure if its the latest SVN or what but the noise
blankers just dont seem to do the job.
I agree with the filtering though. Its better than many rigs I have heard.
I recently added a roofing filter to an "old" Kenwood 930 and it did make a
difference. I noticed the difference in the CQWW contest that just
completed. One night I used the 930 the other the SDR 1000. Both receivers
seemed to work as well as the other. All was going well until the antenna
quit on me. This my friend is a whole other story. Shortened verticals are
not the answer.
Guess I will call Force 12 in the morning and see what they can offer me for
a 75/80 meter antenna.

Sun Tzu wrote:

I use an Timewave ANC-4 to reduce noise on the low bands at my location.
On 40 & 160 meters I can reduce the noise almost to S1, but on 75 meters I
can only reduce it to S4-5.
I use a noise sense antenna which is a dipole 4ft on each side about 4
inches off the ground and parallel to the power and telephone lines.
Anyone have one of these units and having any ideas I might try to reduce 75
meters to a lower S-meter reading?

All my low band antennas are verticals.

Stan
AH6JR

Regarding the various DSP and Filtering comments.

The ANC-4 keeps most of the noise crap from ever getting into the radio in the
first place. Local manmade noise is phase canceled BEFORE the first rf connector
INTO the rig.

This makes the DSP/Filter functions much more effective in that they have a less
severe noise environment to deal with.

I use an ANC-4 with an ICOM 756 Pro III. I wouldn't be without the ANC-4.

/s/ DD