O.K. Jerry so you are having problems with me and I can understand
that.
So are you saying I should put an end to this thread before I get
deeper into a hole?
I am a nothing now tho one time I worked for G.E. as an engineer to get
a retirement pension but that is in the past because I also am old and
have the normal frailties that come with old age and where maybe I
should consider myself past it and fade away!
Many have said that so perhaps I should fade away gracefully and
continue the hobby in isolation

Jerry Martes wrote:
"art" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jerry, Are you concurring with his judgement that I am a blithering
idiot and he gets your vote? I find it so hard to believe that
engineers need only to read the first page of anything and determine
from that and with their perceived knowledge they can trash a complete
paper. I am trying to state things in an extremely elementary way so
that aspiring hams on the side lines can get an understanding of my
scheme of things with respect to this new antenna array aproach which
differs from that of a yagi and whose benefits I will get to later if I
am allowed to


Hi Art

Show me some numbers and some data and I'll change my mind. I never said
that you were a blithering idiot. I am not qualified to make a statement
like that about someone I dont know. But, you do write alot of text in
which you apparently dont care about anyone being able to understand.
Blithering idiots do that too.
Please be aware, I really like real technical challenges that dont require
alot of theoretical math type proofs. But, when the challenge is to prove
you wrong (or right) about the "Efficiency" of a Yagi I'd anticipate there
would be some data (measured or calculated) coming from you. I havent seen
the data.

I too find it hard to believe that engineers (in general)need to read only
the first page of a paper in order to understand the entire text. I used to
work with alot of engineers. I really admire their ability to think
analytically. I consider engineers to be smart people , but reading only
one page of a mulitpage document then be sure the entire paper is trash. I
do believe that a perspicacious, experienced engineer has to be able to
perceive if the rest of any paper is worth reading if the first page is
written as though it was authored by a blithering idiot. Otherwise that
engineer could waste alot of valuable time.

I am not an aspiring HAM, but I once was. Now I'm an old, kinda
ignorant, HAM. They are probably quite similar. But, Art, I just have
alot of difficulty trying to understand your posts. Maybe you have a
"paper" that I could study. Tell me where I can read it. I still like to
learn new things.

My advice to you, Art, is Pay close attention to the advice of the
really good engineers that post here on this forum. If you cant identify
them, ask Richard Clark. He's one of them.

Is there anybody else that is having the same problem as Jerry or is
anybody upto speed with me? May be this would be a good time to pause
so we can smooth out some of these difficulties before we move on and
thus salvage something from this new aproach to antennas



art wrote:
O.K. Jerry so you are having problems with me and I can understand
that.
So are you saying I should put an end to this thread before I get
deeper into a hole?
I am a nothing now tho one time I worked for G.E. as an engineer to get
a retirement pension but that is in the past because I also am old and
have the normal frailties that come with old age and where maybe I
should consider myself past it and fade away!
Many have said that so perhaps I should fade away gracefully and
continue the hobby in isolation

Jerry Martes wrote:
"art" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jerry, Are you concurring with his judgement that I am a blithering
idiot and he gets your vote? I find it so hard to believe that
engineers need only to read the first page of anything and determine
from that and with their perceived knowledge they can trash a complete
paper. I am trying to state things in an extremely elementary way so
that aspiring hams on the side lines can get an understanding of my
scheme of things with respect to this new antenna array aproach which
differs from that of a yagi and whose benefits I will get to later if I
am allowed to


Hi Art

Show me some numbers and some data and I'll change my mind. I never said
that you were a blithering idiot. I am not qualified to make a statement
like that about someone I dont know. But, you do write alot of text in
which you apparently dont care about anyone being able to understand.
Blithering idiots do that too.
Please be aware, I really like real technical challenges that dont require
alot of theoretical math type proofs. But, when the challenge is to prove
you wrong (or right) about the "Efficiency" of a Yagi I'd anticipate there
would be some data (measured or calculated) coming from you. I havent seen
the data.

I too find it hard to believe that engineers (in general)need to read only
the first page of a paper in order to understand the entire text. I used to
work with alot of engineers. I really admire their ability to think
analytically. I consider engineers to be smart people , but reading only
one page of a mulitpage document then be sure the entire paper is trash. I
do believe that a perspicacious, experienced engineer has to be able to
perceive if the rest of any paper is worth reading if the first page is
written as though it was authored by a blithering idiot. Otherwise that
engineer could waste alot of valuable time.

I am not an aspiring HAM, but I once was. Now I'm an old, kinda
ignorant, HAM. They are probably quite similar. But, Art, I just have
alot of difficulty trying to understand your posts. Maybe you have a
"paper" that I could study. Tell me where I can read it. I still like to
learn new things.

My advice to you, Art, is Pay close attention to the advice of the
really good engineers that post here on this forum. If you cant identify
them, ask Richard Clark. He's one of them.

Hi Art

Since you top post I guess it is appropriate for me to do so also. I
assume you make the comment about "fade away" without really expecting to do
so. I still want to see data, any data that applies to your statement
that Yagiis are inefficient antennas. As far as I know, you are correct
about Yagi efficiency. I have been trying to understand how it can be
determined that Yagiis are inefficient. At the beginning of this thread, I
anticipated reading some data that I could understand. I have begun to
think that data on Yagi efficiency probably doesnt exist. I encourage to
show that I'm wrong about the data.

Jerry






"art" wrote in message
ups.com...
O.K. Jerry so you are having problems with me and I can understand
that.
So are you saying I should put an end to this thread before I get
deeper into a hole?
I am a nothing now tho one time I worked for G.E. as an engineer to get
a retirement pension but that is in the past because I also am old and
have the normal frailties that come with old age and where maybe I
should consider myself past it and fade away!
Many have said that so perhaps I should fade away gracefully and
continue the hobby in isolation

Jerry Martes wrote:
"art" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jerry, Are you concurring with his judgement that I am a blithering
idiot and he gets your vote? I find it so hard to believe that
engineers need only to read the first page of anything and determine
from that and with their perceived knowledge they can trash a complete
paper. I am trying to state things in an extremely elementary way so
that aspiring hams on the side lines can get an understanding of my
scheme of things with respect to this new antenna array aproach which
differs from that of a yagi and whose benefits I will get to later if I
am allowed to


Hi Art

Show me some numbers and some data and I'll change my mind. I never
said
that you were a blithering idiot. I am not qualified to make a
statement
like that about someone I dont know. But, you do write alot of text in
which you apparently dont care about anyone being able to understand.
Blithering idiots do that too.
Please be aware, I really like real technical challenges that dont
require
alot of theoretical math type proofs. But, when the challenge is to
prove
you wrong (or right) about the "Efficiency" of a Yagi I'd anticipate
there
would be some data (measured or calculated) coming from you. I havent
seen
the data.

I too find it hard to believe that engineers (in general)need to read
only
the first page of a paper in order to understand the entire text. I used
to
work with alot of engineers. I really admire their ability to think
analytically. I consider engineers to be smart people , but reading
only
one page of a mulitpage document then be sure the entire paper is trash.
I
do believe that a perspicacious, experienced engineer has to be able to
perceive if the rest of any paper is worth reading if the first page is
written as though it was authored by a blithering idiot. Otherwise
that
engineer could waste alot of valuable time.

I am not an aspiring HAM, but I once was. Now I'm an old, kinda
ignorant, HAM. They are probably quite similar. But, Art, I just
have
alot of difficulty trying to understand your posts. Maybe you have a
"paper" that I could study. Tell me where I can read it. I still like
to
learn new things.

My advice to you, Art, is Pay close attention to the advice of the
really good engineers that post here on this forum. If you cant
identify
them, ask Richard Clark. He's one of them.

On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 03:55:50 GMT, "Jerry Martes"
wrote:

I have been trying to understand how it can be
determined that Yagiis are inefficient.

Hi Jerry,

That, in fact, is quite very simple.

Allow that every living person on this planet (arbitrarily assign that
number to be 6 Billion) has a receiver that is receiving you with arm
chair copy (arbitrarily assign that to be 10dB over S-9) to your
signal (arbitrarily assign that to be 100W) applied to your antenna
(arbitrarily assumed to be a Yagi).

What is the Yagi efficiency?

S-9 is 50µV into 50 Ohms and through various mental gymnastics we can
pin that down to being 50 picoWatts - but wait! There's 10dB more!
call it ½ nanoWatt....

Aggregate that over the entire Earth's total population eagerly
awaiting the news of your power efficiency. 3W total absorption. 3%
efficient.

Now, try something simple like raising that efficiency one notch, and
still hitting ALL 6 Billion people.

Hint, the Yagi couldn't satisfy this in the first place because of a
property called directivity, so a design that is "more efficient" is
even more mythical ;-)

I dare say no one here can prove to be 0.001% efficient in these
terms. [Must be validated through QSL cards.]

Efficiency: Can't live with it; Can't live without it!

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

"Richard Clark" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 03:55:50 GMT, "Jerry Martes"
wrote:

I have been trying to understand how it can be
determined that Yagiis are inefficient.

Hi Jerry,

That, in fact, is quite very simple.

Allow that every living person on this planet (arbitrarily assign that
number to be 6 Billion) has a receiver that is receiving you with arm
chair copy (arbitrarily assign that to be 10dB over S-9) to your
signal (arbitrarily assign that to be 100W) applied to your antenna
(arbitrarily assumed to be a Yagi).

What is the Yagi efficiency?

S-9 is 50µV into 50 Ohms and through various mental gymnastics we can
pin that down to being 50 picoWatts - but wait! There's 10dB more!
call it ½ nanoWatt....

Aggregate that over the entire Earth's total population eagerly
awaiting the news of your power efficiency. 3W total absorption. 3%
efficient.

Now, try something simple like raising that efficiency one notch, and
still hitting ALL 6 Billion people.

Hint, the Yagi couldn't satisfy this in the first place because of a
property called directivity, so a design that is "more efficient" is
even more mythical ;-)

I dare say no one here can prove to be 0.001% efficient in these
terms. [Must be validated through QSL cards.]

Efficiency: Can't live with it; Can't live without it!

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Hi Richard

All kidding aside, I have actually learned things thru this thread. I had
previously considered Efficiency to be a term applied to I squared R losses.
Sure, I know about Aperture Efficiency, but I never knew about Beam
Efficiency till someone presented a reference to a site mentioning it.

But, if that previous thread referred to a Yagi as being inefficient due
to its I squared R losses, I want to see the data supporting that claim.

Incidentally, Pico Blvd doesnt go thru Watts

Wow, this thread has gone way past my minute understanding of charges
and fields.. I'm always amazed everytime a refrigerator magnet
sticks... Where is Dick Feinman when I need him to explain all
this...
As far as I can tell Art, you intend to load up a balloon until it
bursts... That's gotta be hard on the amp when it goes...

denny / k8do

Denny wrote:
Wow, this thread has gone way past my minute understanding of charges
and fields.. I'm always amazed everytime a refrigerator magnet
sticks... Where is Dick Feinman when I need him to explain all
this...

You can purchase and download a lot of his physics lectures as pod casts
from Apple's Itunes.

- Galen, W8LNA

On Tue, 05 Dec 2006 06:56:40 GMT, "Jerry Martes"
wrote:

But, if that previous thread referred to a Yagi as being inefficient due
to its I squared R losses, I want to see the data supporting that claim.

Hi Jerry,

You may as well abandon that expectation and everything related to it.

Incidentally, Pico Blvd doesnt go thru Watts

Does it cross de Gallo?

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC