Jerry Martes wrote:
Hi Art

I hurt my knee, so I have alot of time to spend on this computer right
now. I've been trying to develop skills with Roy's EZNEC. Can you send me
enough data on your concept as I'd need to model it with EZNEC?
Jerry, I am not computor literate in many ways so I dont have the
ability to post a page.
I am trying to do what you ask but it will takes time, I gave a set up
but it did not have any pictures to provide interest for those who have
EZNEC so they didn't try out things.
I will get something that people can look at possibly using EZNEC which
will remove the fear of the unknown from many on this newsgroup.



I missed the point about the unsatisfactory aspects of a Yagi antenna.

Unsatisfactory is really a relative term. I made a 60 to 80 foot yagi
that did a great job in making far off contacts which does get a bit
old after a while. The antenna being long took up the slack in the
rotor when it was windy was something I didn't like. On top of that the
beam width was narrow because of its high gain but if the wind was
going I really wasn't getting the benefit of the extra gain because of
the slack in the pointing methods and ofcourse with such a long length
of antenna it was hard to make corrections over time as we all do with
antennas. So My main requirement to seek was a wide beam with little or
no sacrifice in gain as well as something shorter to prevent my rotor
from taking a beating and most of all I wanted a constant gain over the
band so I wasn't at a disadvantage as I moved around. As I said it is
all relative and if you want to build an antenna just to0 get on the
air it is hard to beat the simplicity of a yagi unless you become to
demanding of its performance.




Is there any similarity between your "cluster" and the Wullenweber" (?sp?)
antenna concept?
No. That antenner is really a driven element in conjunction with a
detune element. The elements are the vertical variety and if only a
single direction of radiation is required then two elements would
suffice. But the military wants to point in all directions and
sometimes wants to scan in all directions so basically instead of
turning a vertically polarised yagi they just align the driven element
with one of the multitude of untuned elelemnt arranged in a circle via
coax and switching methods instead of a very very long yagi swinging
around.


How are you able to measure the resistive component of an antenna's
terminal impedance then seperate it into two parts? You state that one
resistance is related to current below the surface and the other the current
that flows on the top of the surface.

Well that is where the computor comes in, what would take the likes of
me a lifetime to sort out I get a suitable computor program from one of
the clever guys around but you must remember a lot of programs were
designed around the Yagi with the thought it would always remain as the
antenna of choice. There are other programs around that can circumvent
the basic yagi design but it requires more effort and knoweledge and
most of us are old guys
with asn abundance of senior moments.




What frequency band do you do your testing on?? You must have some very
good test equipment.

I do have a lot of equipment but I realise that it is of little use if
you cannot rely on the results you obtain, that is the beauty of
computor programs as most of the human frailties
have been removed.


Is it easy for you to tell me why you want to avoid "reactiveness"?
I thought I had attempted that!

Tell me how I can model your antenna with EZNEC.

No I can't since I am not familiar with it but as I said earlier I am
trying to get an example done with the use of EZNEC which will provide
more meaning to those that are interested
tho I do understand that the spamming warfare will increase from those
who feel all is known about antennas and it is written right infront of
them in their personal books.

New books, authors or new ideas are not necessary anymore to many of
the old timers
Regards
Art


Jerry



"art" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jerh each otherry
What I am doing is to get away from inline coupling of elements. The
Yagi antenna is one of these where all the elements are in line. What I
am doing is to arrange a a bunch of elements in a group or cluster such
that each and all elements couple with each other rather than the the
two elements along side. By doing this and yet making the bunch of
elements resonant on their own as well as being driven by one element
as with the normal antenna you have to make changes in either the
length, dia or material of each element to compensate for all the other
factors implanted on them by the proximity of all the other elements in
the bunch or cluster. When this is done correctly the bunch of elements
are in equilibrium with each other and where each element impedance is
devoid or has reactance minimised. The reason for this aproach is the
two resistances that you encounter are the resistance of the material
used for the element which is where the current flows below the surface
and the radiation resistance which is from the current that flows on
top of the surface
to produce radiation. Since it is radiation that we are concerned with
only true resistance is of importance and where reactiveness in the
impedances provide no benefit to radiation.
The bottom line is that we want to avoid reactivenes whereas the yagi
by coupling elements
that are untuned or not resonant promotes reactiveness. An example of
what this reactiveness does to an array is to make the value curves for
gain, back to front and swr all peaking at different frequencies where
as the ideal arrangement is to have all the curves peak near the same
frequency so that when using the antenna across the band you have a
fairly consistent gain figure instead of having to cut it at the high
or low end of the band in a compromising effort. When building such an
array you take advantage of height in the turning radius of the beam
since you dont have to place all elements in a single line as with a
yagi which imposes limits on antenna length. by utilising height of the
array you can have a smaller rotating radius with the same gain of a
yagi with a larger turning radius together with a bandwidth with
smoothed variables.
Hope that helps and clears some of the mystery away from clustered
arrays. This aproach by the way also applies to vertical arrays from
which you can get horizontal, vertical and circular radiation where
each has its special place of use. Use of academic terms was only
provided because some academics don't like change and want to see the
same things they see in books and for some reason were taught that talk
of statics in the same room as electromagnetics is blasphamy yet they
cannot bring forward anything in the books that say they are totally
separable. By the way I mentioned Nagy where as it should have been
Brown who did so much in recent years in broadcasting and T.V.
Have fun with antennas and don't get intimidated by those who learned
things in College only to memorise and pass exams instead of using
knoweledge to advance the quality of life.
Best regards
Art


Jerry Martes wrote:
Hi Art

Thanks for taking your time to direct me to some very complex thinking.
But, I'm a rather simple guy who isnt well educated. You apparently
expect
a "just regular guy" like me to understand the ccomplex convoluted
theoretical stuff that you write about.
When I did work as an antenna design engineer, years ago, I saw some of
my
buddies working on the distribution of energy across apertures in an
effort
to shape beams. One of their considerations was to decrease the power
to
the elements as they were more distant from the center of the array. I
remember reading that when the power is tapered to provide a distribution
about equivalent to a Gaussian Distribution, the side lobes were minimal.

I really enjoy thinking about real antenna construction projects.
but,
when it gets to the Maxwell's Equation kind of analysis, I get lost. I
dont
even know what a Vector is.
You may have the wrong impression about me, Art, I'm an old guy who
wants
to have fun with antennas. It isnt necessary for you to tell me to "get
back
to basics". I dont have interest in the "basics" you refer to.

Is it possible for you to tell us (me) what you are referring to
without
referring to Vectors, Gauss's law, Lorentz, "Nagi", and even elementary
calculus? Frankly, Art, you confuse me when you write such scholarly
paragraphs. You and I are so far removed from each other intellectually
that I can never keep up with your texts.

Jerry


"art" wrote in message
ups.com...
Jerry, get back to basics and look up a conservative field relative to
Gaussian law.
Step 1
It is a group of electric charges with an addition vector of zero. So
move backwards and remove that vector if you wish and you have a
gaussian field of electrical charges which in the case of a bunch of
resonant elements can be seen as all positive or all negative charges
and we also know that Gaussian law is valid even for enclosed charges
in motion.

Step 2 The vector that we removed is known as curl but at this time nit
has no valu is the samee tho the vector direction is known.
Step 3 Faraday's law of Induced electromotive force. This is somewhat
opposite to the consevative field in terms of rotation but in relative
terms it where the consevative field is revolving around a magnetic
field ( hopefully you can visualise this) So we have a charge q in an
element of length ds, which element, at the instant considered has
velocity u,experiences a force. Now I know some have difficulty with
what I said earlier with respect to adding " at an instant of time) to
Gausses law which is the same length of time referred to above as " at
the instant considered "

Gtep 4 We then examine Lorentz equation which refers to an induced
electric field which is present when, for example the magnetic field is
changing with time such that
v1 = 1/q integral F.ds. You can now see that any CONSERVATIVE force
that might be included in F would integrate to zero thus ommiting any
electrostatic field that might be present Note again faradays law, it
is valid regardloess of the nature of the factor or factors responsible
for change in magnetic flux. So now the overview of the cluster of
resonant elements projected a conservative field with a magnetic vector
of zero reflecting" an instant of time" with respect to resonant
elements and where the magnetic field will provide
motion to the electrostatic field where all charges will exibit the
same direction of charge and will change in unison

Now no amount of writing will get you to understand this flow of
concept if you are not willing to have an open mind or think around
something that at the present time you fail to understand and are not
willing to rethink thing, possibly in a different way than I presented
it.

If you are so inclined you can go back further in history and play with
the 4 vertical array of elements formed by Nagi to obtain possible
insights since he also worked with an array of vertical elements all of
which were resonant. His work has been rechecked via Matlab and found
to be correct so you have a viable path to follow if you have a modicom
of interest in this new concept. It must be noted that the above is
only a partial description of the concept
because I have yet to add a detuned element for directional purposes
for the radiation field.

There is nothing more that I can add that will persuade you to follow
thru with this concept
so I believe I have now reached the Rubicon with respect to this vision
of mine. If you can't understand it now put it down to me not being
smart enough to explain clearly electromagnetics to those skilled in
the art which I am now finding to be a hopeless task at least here in
the U.S. unless one can read it in a book and memorise it so one can
pass an exam..
Art








Jerry Martes wrote:
"JIMMIE" wrote in message
ups.com...

Dave wrote:
"art" wrote in message
ups.com...
In the thread Rain static I referred to a closed surface which is
clearly
defined by Gauss's law.

Gauss's law doesn't define a surface, the surface is any arbitrary
surface
surrounding a charge.

Let us now look at a time vary field applied to

a dielectric. I fht efield is applied for the shortest of time
the
charges
will stay on the surface. If time is longer than the shortest
space
of
time

you make it sound like there is some 'shortest' time where charges
won't
move. this is not true. no matter how short you make the time it
will
move
the charges.

then charges will openetrate the closed surface. If the surface
is
an
insulator type then it takes a long while to penetrate but if the
surface

Here you mix up 'surface' and 'surface'. the gauss's law 'surface'
is
a
mathematically useful construction around a charge, it does not
have
any
charge 'on' it, nor is there any 'penetration' of it by charge in
gauss's
law. it is strictly a non-material thing that is used only for
calculation
purposes.

is a good conductor then the charges will penetrate very quickly
so
we can associate the time constant of penetration to the subject
of
skin depth. If we are to associate the time varying field to a
gaussian field

you have yet to define a 'gaussian field'. gauss's law applies to
electric
fields and their relation to charges.

all the excess charges must be on the surface by law.

only in a 'perfect' conductor. dielectrics and 'empty' space can
have
distributed charges throughout.

Or in other words
the time evolved must be shorter than the time required to begin
penetration.

huh? it just goes down hill from here. write some equations, do
some
drawings, publish a manuscript. all the rest is empty handwaving
based
on
incorrect assumptions and missing definitions.

Thus for a short space of time all charges are on the surface and
the
charges
have a magnhe radiating eneetic and electric field vectors. Just
having
charges is not enough to convert to a gaussian field in that a
gaussian
field must be in equilibrium thus a cluster of elements
must have the direction of the surface charges change in unison.
For
a
cluster of elements to do this they must all be resonant such
that
the
charges reach the ends of the elements at the same time.
Resonance
of
an element is determined by its diameter and its length and
because
it
is coupled to other elements in the cluster the coupling must be
taken
into account to secure resonance of not only the individual
elements
but of the cluster as a whole. When this is accomplished the
charges
on
the surface of the closed volume are in equilibrium but onty for
that
shortest of short time and where that time is added to the
gaussian
formulae for the transition to be complete. For the Gaussian
field
or
volume we can say the energy inside the gaussian field is equal
to
that
supplied by flux to the outside of the border and remember the
flux
inside consists of magnetic and electric vectoirs. We now can say
that
in a moment of time the flux produced from each element that
breaches
the border in summation with the other elements is equal to the
radiating field outside of the border when each element energy
makes
the transmittion. Thus the summation of each of the clustered
elements
individual energy when the vectors are given a value
must equal the flux on the outside of the border that produces
radiation. We also know that if we have a cluster of elements
that
are
clustered together we can obtain radiation by just applying a
time
varing field to just one of the elements and by virtue of
intercoupling
all the radiating energy
will leave the near field. Thus we have two different methods of
determining the value of the radiated field
! radiation from the clustered within a Gaussian field and
2 radiation from an array of coupled elements
Since the elements within the cluster are all of the same "Q'"
the
determination of all factors
in the resulting equation are simplified to Ohms law and where
the
laborious coupling calculations
are omitted. The above describes in first principles as to how a
Gaussian field in a short space of time can be equated to a
radiating
cluster using existing laws of the masters which also embraces
NEC
code. Now many have said I have no understanding of radiation
concepts
so go ahead and tear this apart and have a merry Xmas doing it
Art Unwin KB9MZ..........XG


It appears Art has picked up some phrases haphazardly and is trying
to
apply them to antennas some how, If I remember correctly doesnt
Gaussian field apply to statistical distribution. Been a long time
since I had statistical analysis back in the early 70s but I think
this
is also refered to as a "normal distribution".

Hi Jimmy

By my standards, you are *Right On* on all you wrote. I'm pretty
sure
Gaussian distribution of power across a radiating plane results
(theoretically) in zero side lobes, That is also a very poor
distribution
when gain is a goal. I think the term Normal is synonymous with
Gaussian
when referring to aperture distribution.

Jerry