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Cecil Moore wrote:
A 2 amp phasor at zero degrees added to a 2 amp phasor at zero degrees equals 4 amps at zero degrees, flowing in the same instantaneous direction as the instantaneous phasor components. Above lies the semantic nonsense. You've got 2 amps, alternating in both directions, plus another two amps that alternate in both directions, which equals 4 amps alternating in both directions. The number 4 is only true at a particular location and instant of time. When the two component phasors are at 180 degrees, they and their sum are flowing in the opposite direction. Semantic nonsense, plus Pi radians. 73, Jim AC6XG |
Jim Kelley wrote:
??? I've never even expressed an opinion about EZNEC. No, but you expressed an opinion about the graphics I posted after capturing them in EZNEC. Remember, after you commented on them ,I said I hope you didn't teach those concepts to your students? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Richard Clark wrote:
They are called "mirrors." There's nothing physical there. Are they virtual mirrors? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Jim Kelley wrote:
W4JLE wrote: I am sure, if I met Cecil in person, I would really enjoy being around him. I quite agree. You guys come on over to East Texas for free beer and pizza. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
90% of the bandwidth in this forum is used by this kind of nonsense.
======================= 99% is a more accurate estimate. |
"W4JLE" w4jle(remove to wrote in message ... 4. One can NOT see a standing wave, whereas one may be computed from the observations. Umm, then how does a slotted line work to show SWR? |
Sec sez -
You guys come on over to East Texas for free beer and pizza. ======================= What! No red wine, no mature cheese! |
Umm, then how does a slotted line work to show SWR?
======================== Only by cooking the books. |
Cecil Moore wrote: Jim Kelley wrote: ??? I've never even expressed an opinion about EZNEC. No, but you expressed an opinion about the graphics I posted after capturing them in EZNEC. Remember, after you commented on them ,I said I hope you didn't teach those concepts to your students? Nope. You haven't used that insulting remark in any of your correspondence since last summer. 73, Jim AC6XG |
On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 17:15:40 -0600, Cecil Moore
wrote: Richard Clark wrote: They are called "mirrors." There's nothing physical there. Are they virtual mirrors? No |
Wine and cheese is for the faggoty French and those that aspire to be French
like the English woman on "Keeping up appearances". Real men drink beer, eat pizza, 4 alarm chili, scratch their nuts and shoot at creatures roaming the woods. "Reg Edwards" wrote in message ... Sec sez - You guys come on over to East Texas for free beer and pizza. ======================= What! No red wine, no mature cheese! |
W4JLE wrote: Wine and cheese is for the faggoty French and those that aspire to be French like the English woman on "Keeping up appearances". :-) Hyacinth. 73, jk |
By measuring the points of destructive and constructive interference, and
refering to those points as the standing wave. "John Smith" wrote in message link.net... "W4JLE" w4jle(remove to wrote in message ... 4. One can NOT see a standing wave, whereas one may be computed from the observations. Umm, then how does a slotted line work to show SWR? |
Wine and cheese is for the faggoty French and those that aspire to be French like the English woman on "Keeping up appearances". Real men drink beer, eat pizza, 4 alarm chili, scratch their nuts and shoot at creatures roaming the woods. Spit on sissy fractal antennas and belch and fart, no? |
Jim Kelley wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote: A 2 amp phasor at zero degrees added to a 2 amp phasor at zero degrees equals 4 amps at zero degrees, flowing in the same instantaneous direction as the instantaneous phasor components. Above lies the semantic nonsense. You've got 2 amps, alternating in both directions, plus another two amps that alternate in both directions, which equals 4 amps alternating in both directions. The number 4 is only true at a particular location and instant of time. Of course, when both are at zero degrees. That's exactly what I said. When the two component phasors are at 180 degrees, they and their sum are flowing in the opposite direction. Semantic nonsense, plus Pi radians. You still don't accept the fact that the sign of the cosine of the phase angle is related to one of two possible directions in a transmission line. Only real currents exist, Jim, and they are forced to flow in one of two directions. The imaginary portion of the current is imaginary and doesn't exist in the reality in which I live. Your reality may vary. Don't like that fact? Then call it "nonsense". -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Richard Clark wrote:
wrote: Richard Clark wrote: They are called "mirrors." There's nothing physical there. Are they virtual mirrors? No Hmmmmm, they're not physical and they're not virtual. Leaves only one possibility. They are imaginary, i.e. imagined. You really believe that a light ray in free space is affected by another light ray flowing through it? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Cecil Moore wrote: You still don't accept the fact that the sign of the cosine of the phase angle is related to one of two possible directions in a transmission line. I don't accept all of you ideas about it, no. When adding two AC signals, their relative phase determines whether the signals add or subtract. I have no idea what you think it says about the direction an "alternating current is traveling". That part of it is absolute nonsense. 73, Jim AC6XG |
Reg wrote,
Sec sez - You guys come on over to East Texas for free beer and pizza. ======================= What! No red wine, no mature cheese! We'll come over to your house for that, Reg. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH |
W4JLE wrote,
Wine and cheese is for the faggoty French and those that aspire to be French like the English woman on "Keeping up appearances". Real men drink beer, eat pizza, 4 alarm chili, scratch their nuts and shoot at creatures roaming the woods. "Reg Edwards" wrote in message ... Sec sez - You guys come on over to East Texas for free beer and pizza. ======================= What! No red wine, no mature cheese! Which just goes to show how soft real men have become. In the old days, the requirements also included eating peas with a Bowie knife and being able to hit a spittoon every time at twenty yards, not to mention the usual bear rassling and dynamite-fisted bare knuckles fights. 73, Tom Donaly, KA6RUH |
Jim Kelley wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote: You still don't accept the fact that the sign of the cosine of the phase angle is related to one of two possible directions in a transmission line. I don't accept all of you ideas about it, no. When adding two AC signals, their relative phase determines whether the signals add or subtract. I have no idea what you think it says about the direction an "alternating current is traveling". That part of it is absolute nonsense. "Absolute nonsense." Translation: "I don't understand." Jim, the real current, the current that exists in this real world, is I*cos(phase_angle). In a wire, there are only two possible directions for current flow. The sign of cos(phase_angle) yields the direction of current flow, referenced to something, usually the source. In a wire, current cannot stand still. Therefore, it must be flowing in one of two directions. If the cos(phase_angle) is positive, convention has it flowing toward the load. If the cos(phase_angle) is negative convention has it flowing toward the source. Instantaneous AC current changes direction every 1/2 cycle and every 1/2 wavelength. I notice that no one argued with my peak current diagram in 2 wavelengths of transmission line. Kraus says that antenna current reverses phase every 180 degrees (for a thin wire). That assertion applies to either 180 degrees of time or 180 degrees of antenna. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Tdonaly wrote:
I didn't think he'd get it, but that's o.k. It's getting so the only way to post to this newsgroup is to write little Zen riddles and let Cecil meditate his way to enlightenment, since mathematical logic, and experiment are against his principles. When you can't win the argument, launch an ad hominem attack. Nobody has offered anything that proves me technically wrong about AC current flow. You guys who believe that AC current always flows the same direction have been seduced by the DC model that you have been using. Maybe you should be reminded that the only relationship between DC and RMS AC is the power transfer abilities. Shirley, you can understand that AC transfers power no matter which direction the current is flowing. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Tdonaly wrote:
Which just goes to show how soft real men have become. In the old days, the requirements also included eating peas with a Bowie knife and being able to hit a spittoon every time at twenty yards, not to mention the usual bear rassling and dynamite-fisted bare knuckles fights. "Now where's that Indian Maiden that I'm supposed to wrestle?" -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Cecil Moore wrote:
If the cos(phase_angle) is positive, convention has it flowing toward the load. If the cos(phase_angle) is negative convention has it flowing toward the source. Prove it. 73, Jim AC6XG |
Sounds like I need to scan & post the technical explanation for the Micro
Match from QST. I have a copy from Dad's stuff. It gives an explanatin of how you sample the voltage & current on the line, account for phase and determine fwd & rev power. Think it'd help? I can't address this issue (my brain can't get a lock on the phase/direction issue) . -- Steve N, K,9;d, c. i My email has no u's. "Jim Kelley" wrote in message ... Cecil Moore wrote: If the cos(phase_angle) is positive, convention has it flowing toward the load. If the cos(phase_angle) is negative convention has it flowing toward the source. Prove it. 73, Jim AC6XG |
Steve Nosko wrote: Sounds like I need to scan & post the technical explanation for the Micro Match from QST. I have a copy from Dad's stuff. It gives an explanatin of how you sample the voltage & current on the line, account for phase and determine fwd & rev power. Think it'd help? Cecil claims he's not talking about the direction of wave propagation. He says he's talking about current flow. DC flows in one of two possible directions, but Cecil seems to think that AC does as well. I can't address this issue (my brain can't get a lock on the phase/direction issue). My impression is that Cecil may be having a similar kind of difficulty. 73, Jim AC6XG |
Jim Kelley wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote: If the cos(phase_angle) is positive, convention has it flowing toward the load. If the cos(phase_angle) is negative convention has it flowing toward the source. Prove it. Huh? You're kidding, right? Plug a 100k resistor into your wall socket. Assuming the "hot" wire is the one on the left, like it is in my house, and that hot wire is the reference: When the resistor lead plugged into the hot side is a positive voltage compared to the other side, the current is flowing out of the hot wire into the resistor, by convention. When the resistor lead plugged into the hot side is a negative voltage, the current is flowing into the hot wire. Shirley, this is common knowledge for a physics prof. It is certainly common knowledge for power engineers. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Art Unwin KB9MZ wrote:
Cecil we have severe weather here that it requires a real snow job from me to emerge back into this particular thread !!!!! Just remember when Einstein said, "God doesn't roll dice", one of the QED physicists replied that, "Not only does God roll dice, he rolls them in the dark." :-) What's wrong with your browser? -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Cecil Moore wrote:
Plug a 100k resistor into your wall socket. Assuming the "hot" wire is the one on the left, like it is in my house, and that hot wire is the reference: When the resistor lead plugged into the hot side is a positive voltage compared to the other side, the current is flowing out of the hot wire into the resistor, by convention. When the resistor lead plugged into the hot side is a negative voltage, the current is flowing into the hot wire. Right - sort of. But alternating current flows *through* the resistor - not *to* and/or *from* it. There is no convention describing unidirectional flow of alternating current. That is what you've been trying to say, i.e. current into one end of a coil. 73, Jim AC6XG |
Cecil Moore wrote in message ...
Hmmmmm, they're not physical and they're not virtual. Leaves only one possibility. They are imaginary, i.e. imagined. Kinda like how you imagine you are saying something important or intelligent! S. |
Dr. Slick wrote:
Kinda like how you imagine you are saying something important or intelligent! Makes one wonder why something so unimportant is worth the energy you expend in arguing about it. :-) Sure seems to me that dQ/dt is negative for 1/2 half of an AC cycle. -- 73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp -----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =----- http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! -----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
Cecil Moore wrote:
Sure seems to me that dQ/dt is negative for 1/2 half of an AC cycle. So then according to Shriners convention, AC would be flowing away from the load and sloshing up against the source? (hic) :-) 73 de ac6xg |
Jim Kelley wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote: Sure seems to me that dQ/dt is negative for 1/2 half of an AC cycle. So then according to Shriners convention, AC would be flowing away from the load and sloshing up against the source? (hic) Not sloshing up against the source - forced back through the source and out the other source terminal (just like a battery). Do you understand what happens when you reverse the polarity of a battery in a DC circuit? Current flows in the opposite direction. AC is somewhat similar to reversing the DC battery polarity. In any one AC supply wire, AC current flows away from the load toward the source 1/2 of the time. Electrons flow back and forth through the source. Electrons flow back and forth through the load. The electrons near the source may never make it to the RF load and vice versa. The driving EMF changes directions every 1/2 cycle. It appears that the DC model adapted for AC has seduced a lot of people into ignoring the most basic characteristics of an AC signal which is somewhat like reversing the polarity on a DC battery. -- 73, Cecil, W5DXP |
Cecil Moore wrote in message ...
Dr. Slick wrote: Kinda like how you imagine you are saying something important or intelligent! Makes one wonder why something so unimportant is worth the energy you expend in arguing about it. :-) Sure seems to me that dQ/dt is negative for 1/2 half of an AC cycle. I think every so often, it's important to point out how full of sh** Cecil Moore really is... S. |
Cecil Moore wrote: It appears that the DC model adapted for AC has seduced a lot of people into ignoring the most basic characteristics of an AC signal which is somewhat like reversing the polarity on a DC battery. Cecil, OM. The point you so hard-headedly and steadfastly refuse to acknowledge is that YOU are the one trying to employ a "DC model" when describing alternating current. AC doesn't go into one end of something and then come out the other end of that thing. If you would simply acknowledge that fact then maybe we wouldn't have to endure any more of your 2nd Grade electricity tutorials. Okay? 73 de AC6XG |
Dr. Slick wrote:
I think every so often, it's important to point out how full of sh** Cecil Moore really is... When you cannot present a rational argument, mount an ad hominem attack? What is it that you disagree with me about? Do you think AC current doesn't reverse direction every 1/2 cycle? -- 73, Cecil, W5DXP |
Jim Kelley wrote:
Cecil Moore wrote: It appears that the DC model adapted for AC has seduced a lot of people into ignoring the most basic characteristics of an AC signal which is somewhat like reversing the polarity on a DC battery. Cecil, OM. The point you so hard-headedly and steadfastly refuse to acknowledge is that YOU are the one trying to employ a "DC model" when describing alternating current. AC doesn't go into one end of something and then come out the other end of that thing. If you would simply acknowledge that fact then maybe we wouldn't have to endure any more of your 2nd Grade electricity tutorials. Here's a snapshot of the current maximum points, including direction of current flow, in a 2 WL matched transmission line. The next snapshot is the same thing 1/2 cycle later. Note: Current is going into the bottom of the source and coming out of the top. Same for the load. *----------------------* | | Source Load | | *----------------------* *----------------------* | | Source Load | | *----------------------* 1/2 cycle later: Current is flowing out of the bottom and into the top of the source. Same for the load. The transmission line is 2 wavelengths long. That means that instantaneous current in the transmission line is simultaneously flowing toward the load and toward the source at different points up and down the line. AC is akin to reversing the polarity of a battery. What happens to the direction of current flow through the load when the polarity of a battery is reversed? Don't you realize that if current is flowing out of the '+' terminal of a battery, that same current is flowing into the '-' terminal? -- 73, Cecil, W5DXP |
AC doesn't go into one end of something
and then come out the other end of that thing. If you would simply acknowledge that fact then maybe we wouldn't have to endure any more of your 2nd Grade electricity tutorials. Okay? 73 de AC6XG So when I plug my toaster into the AC outlet the current doesn't go into one end? The same with transmitter and antenna? Live and learn (garbage)? Yuri |
Cecil Moore wrote: Don't you realize that if current is flowing out of the '+' terminal of a battery, that same current is flowing into the '-' terminal? Everybody realizes that Cecil. You don't need to explain. You need to understand. Thanks though. 73, Jim AC6XG |
Yuri Blanarovich wrote: So when I plug my toaster into the AC outlet the current doesn't go into one end? Have you got standing waves on your toaster, Yuri? 73, Jim AC6XG |
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