Jim Kelley wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:
I've posted the 'sqcoil.ez' file to my web site that shows low current into
the bottom of the coil and high current out of the top of the coil.

So according to "convention", standing wave current flows away from the
source. Is that your claim?

No, as explained on my web page. The convention is that forward
current flows away from the source and reflected current flows
toward the source. Since in the real world, forward current is
always greater than reflected current, there is always a net
current flow away from the source, by convention. EZNEC displays
net current.
--
73. Cecil, W5DXP

Tdonaly wrote:
If there were more of
something going out of the coil than going in, the coil would have to
be manufacturing that something. Cecil's ideas on waves are well
known and lead to some pretty unbelievable results.

Tom, Shirley you understand that current can flow into something
for 1/2 cycle and flow out of that something during the next 1/2
cycle. That's what can happen with a phase-reversing coil. For
1/2 cycle, current is flowing into both ends of the coil at the
same time. For the other 1/2 cycle current is flowing out of both
ends of the coil at the same time. The coil stores energy for the
first 1/2 cycle and returns it during the next 1/2 cycle. I'm
working on some new EZNEC files. On one file, the current flowing
into the bottom of the coil, according to EZNEC, is 0.18 amp at
-54 degrees. The current flowing out the top of the coil is 0.2
amp at 126 degrees. Those two currents are flowing in exactly
opposite directions. How do you explain that?
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP

Cecil Moore wrote:

The convention is that forward
current flows away from the source and reflected current flows
toward the source.

Exactly.

Since in the real world, forward current is
always greater than reflected current, there is always a net
current flow away from the source, by convention.

The current plot for an antenna is a standing wave plot. The
superposition of foward and reflected current is a standing wave. Your
"net current" here is a standing wave. Convention dictates that current
alternates in direction, and that standing waves don't. They stand.

There exists no "reality" in which more current "goes in" one end of a
device than "comes out" the other.

73, Jim AC6XG

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:08:30 -0600, Cecil Moore
wrote:
forward current is always greater than reflected current,
EZNEC displays net current.
On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 14:22:29 -0600, Cecil Moore
wrote:

the current flowing into the bottom of the coil, according to EZNEC,
is 0.18 amp at -54 degrees.
The current flowing out the top of the coil is 0.2
amp at 126 degrees. Those two currents are flowing in exactly
opposite directions. How do you explain that?

Well with the wisdom accumulated thus far you don't know how to use
and or interpret EZNEC (fairly obvious). Let's look at the howlers:
forward current is always greater than reflected current,
compared to:
the current flowing into... 0.18 amp
The current flowing out ... is 0.2 amp

OR
the current flowing into... bottom of the coil
Forward compared to Reverse
The current flowing out ... top of the coil
which describes the same direction: into bottom - out of top.

Such logical knots (nuts) are derived from the faulty application of
EZNEC displays net current.

73's
Richard Clark, KB7QHC

Jim Kelley wrote:
Convention dictates that current
alternates in direction, and that standing waves don't. They stand.

Heh, heh, the seduction by the math model is worse than I thought.
You don't really believe that standing waves don't alternate
in direction, do you? Why do you think they call it a loop?
The standing wave current changes phase by 180 degrees every
half cycle.

There exists no "reality" in which more current "goes in" one end of a
device than "comes out" the other.

But Jim, the original argument was that the current into the
coil is the same magnitude and phase as the current out of
the coil. Do you think that is a true statement?
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP

Richard Clark wrote:
Well with the wisdom accumulated thus far you don't know how to use
and or interpret EZNEC (fairly obvious). Let's look at the howlers:

forward current is always greater than reflected current,

compared to:
the current flowing into... 0.18 amp
The current flowing out ... is 0.2 amp

And I'm howling at your ignorance. The current flowing "into"
and "out of" is *net* current, not forward or reflected current.
The net current is the phasor sum of the forward and reflected
currents. They are not the same thing at all.

which describes the same direction: into bottom - out of top.

If the current into the bottom is at zero degrees and the
current out of the top is at 180 degrees, they are flowing
in opposite directions which is not "the same direction".
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP

Cecil Moore wrote:

Jim Kelley wrote:
Convention dictates that current
alternates in direction, and that standing waves don't. They stand.

Heh, heh, the seduction by the math model is worse than I thought.

It's not so much a matter of being better or worse than you thought.
It's just different than what you think.

You don't really believe that standing waves don't alternate
in direction, do you?

I don't think anyone believes that standing waves alternate in
direction. Most people know that standing waves are stationary, and
that alternating current flows in alternating directions. But the two
things are not one in the same. You need to think more carefully about
what a standing wave is.
Sorry for the dangling prep.

The standing wave current changes phase by 180 degrees every
half cycle.

At a given point is space alternating current changes phase
continuously. But standing waves don't change position, and don't have
a direction, let alone a *CHANGE* in direction. The current plot on
your web page shows a standing wave plot of alterating current magnitude
as a function of position. The phase at each position changes
continuously with time.

Listen carefully. The plot indicates the magnitude (and potentially a
phase) of an alternating current as a function of position. The phase
at each position changes continuously with time. It's RF AC, but it's
not a traveling wave plot.

It's not a matter of current flow into or current flow out of; for a
standing wave plot it's a matter of the magnitude of current flowing
*AT* the specific positions. The current is alternating equally in both
directions. There isn't a *net* current flow.

73, Jim AC6XG

There exists no "reality" in which more current "goes in" one end of a
device than "comes out" the other.

But Jim, the original argument was that the current into the
coil is the same magnitude and phase as the current out of
the coil.

But Cecil, the original argument wouldn't have been as big an argument
if it had been more accurately stated. Or more precisely, if you hadn't
subsequently misstated the facts Yuri had disclosed. It's true that the
standing wave current at one end of the coil is greater than it is at
the other end. You and I both know why that is so. But there are only
so many ways that can be accurately stated before things begin to head
off into the ridiculous, the obtuse, and the sublime - directions you
have a marked propensity for taking. Reel it back in just a bit.

Cecil wrote,

Tdonaly wrote:
If there were more of
something going out of the coil than going in, the coil would have to
be manufacturing that something. Cecil's ideas on waves are well
known and lead to some pretty unbelievable results.

Tom, Shirley you understand that current can flow into something
for 1/2 cycle and flow out of that something during the next 1/2
cycle. That's what can happen with a phase-reversing coil. For
1/2 cycle, current is flowing into both ends of the coil at the
same time. For the other 1/2 cycle current is flowing out of both
ends of the coil at the same time. The coil stores energy for the
first 1/2 cycle and returns it during the next 1/2 cycle. I'm
working on some new EZNEC files. On one file, the current flowing
into the bottom of the coil, according to EZNEC, is 0.18 amp at
-54 degrees. The current flowing out the top of the coil is 0.2
amp at 126 degrees. Those two currents are flowing in exactly
opposite directions. How do you explain that?
--
73, Cecil, W5DXP


So the coil acts precisely as if it were a capacitor. That's what capacitors
do,
store and release charge. Is that what you're saying? Your coil is getting
more versatile all the time.
73.
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

Cecil wrote,

Heh, heh, the seduction by the math model is worse than I thought.


:-)

73,
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH

1. cause currect flow in a coil.
2. remove currect source.
3. Magnetic field collapses inducing voltage in the coil.
4. Doesn't it store energy in the magnetic field?

"Tdonaly" wrote in message to
Cecil...

So the coil acts precisely as if it were a capacitor. That's what
capacitors
do,
store and release charge. Is that what you're saying? Your coil is
getting
more versatile all the time.
73.
Tom Donaly, KA6RUH