Cecil Moore wrote:

Jim Kelley wrote:
There is no convention describing
unidirectional flow of alternating current. That is what you've been
trying to say, i.e. current into one end of a coil.

What do you mean there is no
convention describing instantaneous current flow for AC?

What do *you* mean by it? I never said anything like that.


From _University_Physics_ by Young and Freedman, 9th edition:

"i = I cos(wt) where 'i' is the instantaneous current ..."

Yes, you'll also find that in one of my earlier posts in this thread.
Cecil, why don't you wait until you've finished learning this stuff
before you begin lecturing to me about it. I learned it a long time
ago.

73, Jim AC6XG

Jim Kelley wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:

Jim Kelley wrote:
There is no convention describing
unidirectional flow of alternating current. That is what you've been
trying to say, i.e. current into one end of a coil.

What do you mean there is no
convention describing instantaneous current flow for AC?

What do *you* mean by it? I never said anything like that.

There is indeed a convention for describing unidirectional flow of
alternating current during 1/2 of the AC cycle. And RMS is exactly a
convention, adopted from DC, of describing an equivalent unidirectional
flow of AC current. That is what has been confusing you all along. Once
again, AC current changes direction every 1/2 cycle and the sign of
the cos(phase) function determines which of two, and only two directions,
it flows. Current is NOT a vector. Current is a phasor with two and only
two directions in a wire. Your phasor current "phase" is only an imaginary
math function, a crutch to make the math easier. One amp at 90 degrees
exists in your head, not in the real world..
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Cecil Moore wrote:

That is what has been confusing you all along.

No confusion here, Cecil. Wouldn't such a statement be considered by
most to be ad hominem, i.e. about the person, rather than about the
subject being discussed? You accuse people of doing it to you all the
time, but never seem to be able to fess up to it yourself.

Once
again, AC current changes direction every 1/2 cycle and the sign of
the cos(phase) function determines which of two, and only two directions,
it flows.

Why do you keeps saying the sign of the _cosine_ of the phase determines
instantaneous direction? That's no more true than saying the sign of
the sine of the phase determines the instaneous direction. It could in
fact be completely untrue.

Current is NOT a vector. Current is a phasor with two and only
two directions in a wire.

According to definition, current is a rate. That should be obvious from
it's units of coulombs per second. Alternating current can be expressed
as a rotating vector, or phasor.

Your phasor current "phase" is only an imaginary
math function, a crutch to make the math easier.

Are you talking to me? Helloooo.

One amp at 90 degrees
exists in your head, not in the real world..

Methinks that conversation must exist only in your head, Cecil.

73, and good health de Jim AC6XG

Jim Kelley wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:
That is what has been confusing you all along.

No confusion here, Cecil. Wouldn't such a statement be considered by
most to be ad hominem, i.e. about the person, rather than about the
subject being discussed? You accuse people of doing it to you all the
time, but never seem to be able to fess up to it yourself.

It's not ad hominem if it's true, Jim. You have demonstrated a certain
level of confusion about the direction of AC current travel (of which
there are only two) in a wire. In a single source, single load configuration,
instantaneous AC current is either flowing toward the load or toward the source.
For a phasor current in a wire, phase is an imaginary concept which exists only
in your mind's math model. It is simply an artifact of the math model which doesn't
exist in reality. That's why I keep harping on the seduction by the math models.
Ask yourself, exactly where does that one amp at 90 degrees exist and exactly how
can you measure it?

Why do you keeps saying the sign of the _cosine_ of the phase determines
instantaneous direction?

Because it's true, Jim. Given that the reference is the source at zero
degrees, which indicates a forward direction for current flow, all other
current phases are referenced to the source. i=I*cos(phase_angle) If the
cosine of that phase angle is positive, by convention, the instantaneous
AC current is flowing toward the load. If the cosine of that phase angle
is negative, by convention, the instantaneous AC current is flowing toward
the source.

According to definition, current is a rate. That should be obvious from
it's units of coulombs per second. Alternating current can be expressed
as a rotating vector, or phasor.

Yes, but it goes in only one of two directions at a time. That is what you
are missing. There are only two directions possible in a wire. The direction
of travel in that wire is the sign of cos(phase_angle) referenced to the
source. i*cos(20) and i*cos(60) are traveling in *EXACTLY* the same direction.
Until you comprehend that fact of physics, you will not understand the
superposition of forward current and reflected current, which is the
original point of confusion. When you take time to understand the basics,
and comprehend the difference between a vector and a phasor, then we can
return to the original argument.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Cecil Moore wrote:

You have demonstrated a certain
level of confusion about the direction of AC current travel (of which
there are only two) in a wire.

Any confusion in this thread must be on your end. It began when you
claimed more current goes into one end of an inductor than comes out the
other end. That notion is utterly without merit. You may continue to
try to defend your notion if you like, but please don't do it by
insulting the intelligence of your correspondents.

According to definition, current is a rate. That should be obvious from
it's units of coulombs per second.

Yes, but it goes in only one of two directions at a time.

There are no "buts"; no exceptions to the definition of current.

That is what you
are missing.

Saying I am "missing" something does not make it true. Repeatedly
explaining how alternating current alternates does nothing but
illustrate what a low level of understanding you have for the point
being made by your correspondent. Why not just ask what I mean?

73, Jim AC6XG

Cecil Moore wrote:

Jim Kelley wrote:

Cecil Moore wrote:
That is what has been confusing you all along.

No confusion here, Cecil. Wouldn't such a statement be considered by
most to be ad hominem, i.e. about the person, rather than about the
subject being discussed? You accuse people of doing it to you all the
time, but never seem to be able to fess up to it yourself.

It's not ad hominem if it's true, Jim. You have demonstrated a certain
level of confusion about the direction of AC current travel (of which
there are only two) in a wire. In a single source, single load configuration,
instantaneous AC current is either flowing toward the load or toward the source.
For a phasor current in a wire, phase is an imaginary concept which exists only
in your mind's math model. It is simply an artifact of the math model which doesn't
exist in reality. That's why I keep harping on the seduction by the math models.
Ask yourself, exactly where does that one amp at 90 degrees exist and exactly how
can you measure it?

Why do you keeps saying the sign of the _cosine_ of the phase determines
instantaneous direction?

Because it's true, Jim. Given that the reference is the source at zero
degrees, which indicates a forward direction for current flow, all other
current phases are referenced to the source. i=I*cos(phase_angle) If the
cosine of that phase angle is positive, by convention, the instantaneous
AC current is flowing toward the load. If the cosine of that phase angle
is negative, by convention, the instantaneous AC current is flowing toward
the source.

According to definition, current is a rate. That should be obvious from
it's units of coulombs per second. Alternating current can be expressed
as a rotating vector, or phasor.

Yes, but it goes in only one of two directions at a time. That is what you
are missing. There are only two directions possible in a wire. The direction
of travel in that wire is the sign of cos(phase_angle) referenced to the
source. i*cos(20) and i*cos(60) are traveling in *EXACTLY* the same direction.
Until you comprehend that fact of physics, you will not understand the
superposition of forward current and reflected current, which is the
original point of confusion. When you take time to understand the basics,
and comprehend the difference between a vector and a phasor, then we can
return to the original argument.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp

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Jim Kelley wrote:
Any confusion in this thread must be on your end.

No, you have demonstrated confusion over and over and are doing it again
in the following quote:

It began when you
claimed more current goes into one end of an inductor than comes out the
other end. That notion is utterly without merit.

Can more current go into one end of a transmission line than comes out
the other? Of course it can. Current varies up and down a transmission
line with reflections. It can be one amp at zero degrees at one point and
half an amp at 180 degrees at another point. Therefore, it is possible to
have one amp of current at the bottom of a coil and half an amp at the top
of a coil, just like it is possible in a transmission line. It is obviously
possible for one amp of instantaneous current to be flowing into a transmission
line while half an amp is flowing into the same transmission line in the opposite
direction at the other end. It appears that you don't comprehend distributed
networks at all and that's a pity.

Hint#1: in a distributed network, current can be any magnitude flowing in any
direction at different points. Exactly the same thing holds true for a coil
installed in a distributed network.

Hint#2: Current at a current loop may be one amp while 1/4WL away, the current
is always zero. How you can say that is without merit is beyond comprehension.

Yes, but it goes in only one of two directions at a time.

There are no "buts"; no exceptions to the definition of current.

Yes, and it's time that you learned that fact. There are two and only
two possible directions of current in a wire. You seem to think there
are an infinite number of directions in a wire like there are in free
space for light waves. Current in a wire is ***NOT*** a vector. Current
in a wire can have only two directions.

Saying I am "missing" something does not make it true.

Denying that you are missing something makes you omniscient only in
your own mind, not in reality.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Jim Kelley proclaimed:

It began when you
claimed more current goes into one end of an inductor than comes out the
other end. That notion is utterly without merit.



Aaaah, Flat Earth Society demonstrating their "knowledge".
Look at www.K3BU.us at pictures of RF ammeters SHOWING reality.
Not good enough? Keep harping, the eggs on your faces are getting bigger and
bigger.

Yuri

Yuri Blanarovich wrote:
Jim Kelley proclaimed:
It began when you
claimed more current goes into one end of an inductor than comes out the
other end. That notion is utterly without merit.

Aaaah, Flat Earth Society demonstrating their "knowledge".
Look at www.K3BU.us at pictures of RF ammeters SHOWING reality.
Not good enough? Keep harping, the eggs on your faces are getting bigger and
bigger.

The Flat Earth Society just cannot accept the fact that there can be one
amp of current at one end of the coil and zero amps at the other end, just
like a piece of transmission line. Never mind that the coil is on top of
a mobile antenna and the current at the very top has no place to go.
--
73, Cecil http://www.qsl.net/w5dxp



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Yuri, the earth *is* almost flat, at least on one side. I have pictures
from major earth-satellites showing that reality.

The pictures also prove that there must be strong winds on at least one of
the satellites, cuz a US flag in some of the pictures is not hanging
straight down.

Maybe you and Cecil can explain to us why, with all the evidence in the
pictures, the guy is wearing the funny suit, and isn't eating an
egg-on-his-face omelet made with the locally-cultured chartreuse-colored
cheese, in his skivvies, under some trees on a park bench.

Or is there another picture?

73, Dave, N3HE

"Yuri Blanarovich" wrote in message
...
Jim Kelley proclaimed:

It began when you
claimed more current goes into one end of an inductor than comes out
the
other end. That notion is utterly without merit.



Aaaah, Flat Earth Society demonstrating their "knowledge".
Look at www.K3BU.us at pictures of RF ammeters SHOWING reality.
Not good enough? Keep harping, the eggs on your faces are getting bigger
and
bigger.

Yuri