|
Richard Clark wrote in message . ..
On 28 Jan 2004 03:39:57 -0800, (Maurizio) wrote: Hi all, Is there anybody with some experience in MF antenna modelling with ground effect included (surface wave/space wave) etc. ? I have the need to find out if the NEC4 is able to modellize this type of antenna in a general environment and with which performance. Otherwise, I will have to find out alternative ways (FEM/...). Thanks in advance for any suggestion Best regards Hi Maurizio, Antenna modelers (NEC engines) render far, far field results. The effect of ground is considered only for 1. its impact on feedpoint Z; 2. equivalent launch angle (from the perspective of very far, or DX, receivers). What you describe as your need sounds more like the province of propagation modelers. There are some add-on packages that incorporate with antenna modelers to allow for a variety of terrains; but even those, I think, still relate to the very far, DX, receivers. Even the propagation modelers (like VOACAP and VOAAREA) are tailored for HF and the far, far field. Our references from the FCC for MF broadcast stations stands as a resource. Those references go back many years and little has advanced the science as it has served the industry very well. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Hi Richard, I know that some studies have been done in the past using NEC4 to find the ground wave/space wave fields, but my primary interest is in the near zone modelling of such MF antennas, in particular in presence of non-flat ground. The scope is to make a tool to evaluate the radiated fields in inhabited regions with limits in the maximum field amplitude. A tool dedicated to this task would be very useful for the site evaluation. I have some idea on based on recent studies, but maybe (as often happen) that others have already done something interesting. Are these FCC resources dealing with such issues ? And if so are they freely available? Thanks in advance Maurizio |
|
Hi Richard,
my feeling is that in the past some studies have tried to find out the structure and relative strenght of the ground/space wave fields. Experience has then given rules to evaluate the losses due to the high reactive fields near the antenna with the lossy ground (i have seen a paper using a 6 dB factor to take into account antenna mismatch and such nearby losses). It maybe that this is almost all that has been done. Do you agree? Maurizio |
(Maurizio) wrote in message . com...
Hi all, Is there anybody with some experience in MF antenna modelling with ground effect included (surface wave/space wave) etc. ? I have the need to find out if the NEC4 is able to modellize this type of antenna in a general environment and with which performance. Otherwise, I will have to find out alternative ways (FEM/...). I see you come from Italy, and (for as far as I know) the Nec4 core is not (yet) available for none US citizens due to export restrictions. You could consider using the Nec2 core. However not directly capable of modelling burried radial wires you can simulate them by using radial wires located some .001-.005 wl above ground (See www.cebik.com for detailed info about this subject). When modeling structures on MF (or LF) however you should also be carefull not to violate segment length restrictions due to the relatively low frequency compared to structure size. You could take a look at the 4nec2 freeware (www.qsl.net/wb6tpu/swindex.html) to see if the nec2 core is usefull. 4nec2 also has provisions for generating and visualizing far-field patterns in which the surface wave is included. Greetings, Arie Voors. |
wrote in message . com...
(Maurizio) wrote in message . com... Hi all, Is there anybody with some experience in MF antenna modelling with ground effect included (surface wave/space wave) etc. ? I have the need to find out if the NEC4 is able to modellize this type of antenna in a general environment and with which performance. Otherwise, I will have to find out alternative ways (FEM/...). I see you come from Italy, and (for as far as I know) the Nec4 core is not (yet) available for none US citizens due to export restrictions. You could consider using the Nec2 core. However not directly capable of modelling burried radial wires you can simulate them by using radial wires located some .001-.005 wl above ground (See www.cebik.com for detailed info about this subject). When modeling structures on MF (or LF) however you should also be carefull not to violate segment length restrictions due to the relatively low frequency compared to structure size. You could take a look at the 4nec2 freeware (www.qsl.net/wb6tpu/swindex.html) to see if the nec2 core is usefull. 4nec2 also has provisions for generating and visualizing far-field patterns in which the surface wave is included. Greetings, Arie Voors. Thanks a lot Arie for the links which as I have rapidly seen contain many interesting references. My experience is mainly in microwave (and up) frequency antennas, it is the first time I look at these low frequency problems like ground modelling and I see that this is the right newsgroup for this field. If I will find some way to manage this problem better than how it is currently done, I will keep you informed. I would need to make a comparison between simulation results from MOM and FEM programs of a common broadcast antenna to have a better view of the situation. Maybe that I can arrange such simulation comparison. Thanks again |
On 30 Jan 2004 02:16:09 -0800, (Maurizio) wrote:
Hi Richard, my feeling is that in the past some studies have tried to find out the structure and relative strenght of the ground/space wave fields. Experience has then given rules to evaluate the losses due to the high reactive fields near the antenna with the lossy ground (i have seen a paper using a 6 dB factor to take into account antenna mismatch and such nearby losses). It maybe that this is almost all that has been done. Do you agree? Maurizio Hi Maurizio, I worked on this a couple of years ago: http://home.comcast.net/~kb7qhc/ante...elds/index.htm It deals not so much with the variation of ground proximity with a standard antenna, instead it works against the standard ground with a variety of antennas. Due to the intricacy of geometry afforded by a fractal form, this: http://home.comcast.net/~kb7qhc/ante...atic/index.htm is the most interesting. Unfortunately, the legacy of academic fractal research (sic) has offered no more interest than the morbid study of Down's Syndrome among the Armadillo population. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
Richard Clark wrote in message . ..
On 30 Jan 2004 02:16:09 -0800, (Maurizio) wrote: Hi Richard, my feeling is that in the past some studies have tried to find out the structure and relative strenght of the ground/space wave fields. Experience has then given rules to evaluate the losses due to the high reactive fields near the antenna with the lossy ground (i have seen a paper using a 6 dB factor to take into account antenna mismatch and such nearby losses). It maybe that this is almost all that has been done. Do you agree? Maurizio Hi Maurizio, I worked on this a couple of years ago: http://home.comcast.net/~kb7qhc/ante...elds/index.htm It deals not so much with the variation of ground proximity with a standard antenna, instead it works against the standard ground with a variety of antennas. Due to the intricacy of geometry afforded by a fractal form, this: http://home.comcast.net/~kb7qhc/ante...atic/index.htm is the most interesting. Unfortunately, the legacy of academic fractal research (sic) has offered no more interest than the morbid study of Down's Syndrome among the Armadillo population. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Hi Richard, It seems that you have tried to shorten somewhat these cumbersome antennas with the fractal approach. I have seen recently an interesting paper on antennas & propagation proceedings/magazine that was comparing the performance of fractal and non-fractal designs. Regarding the graphs you show in the web pages, if I have well understood, you compare the E/H local fields (amplitudes) with the free space impedence. It is an alternative way to look at the near reactive fields. However, the antenna that was simulated in the paper I was talking about is a real antenna that has been modellized with a dedicated MOM program and with the correct antenna geomety, and results have been compared with measurements. From this comparison it has been necessary the introduction of such factor. It seems to me that the 6 dB factor had to take into account all losses from the transmitter to the radiated fields. My concern is how this factor can be justified. 6 dB is a lot in terms of antenna usefull coverage distance. Maurizio |
|
Maurizio,
To return to your original question about MF antenna modeling with ground effect (surface wave) included: Both NEC-2 and NEC-4 have the capability to include "ground wave" in the Far Field calculations by using an "RP 1" instead of an "RP 0" radiation pattern card. However, you can also see the ground wave effect by doing Near Field calculations, even if the distance of interest is not physically "near" the antenna. The MultiNEC program allows you to calculate the electric field strength in millivolts per meter (or volts/m) using both far field and near field algorithms, and then allows you to plot both on a familiar polar diagram. I have uploaded a few illustrations. The first shows an elevation pattern for a quarter wave vertical over Sommerfeld ground, including radials that are very close to, but slightly above, the ground level. The frequency is 1.832 MHz, in the amateur 160 meter band. Calculations were done with a NEC-2 engine. www.qsl.net/ac6la/adhoc/nfversusff.png is a full screen capture and www.qsl.net/ac6la/adhoc/nfversusff.gif is just the plot itself. You can see that at low elevation angles the field strength that is calculated using normal far field methods (RP 0 card) does not include the surface wave, whereas the near field calculations clearly show the ground wave effect. The actual mV/m values in this example are for a radius (distance from the coordinate system origin) of 1000 meters and a power level of 1000 watts. The full screen image shows the green dot marker on the near field trace with a value of about 148 mV/m at 5° elevation. The plot-only image shows the marker moved to the far field trace, calculated (without ground wave included) to be about 90 mV/m at the same elevation. At elevations below about 30° the normal far field results are clearly inaccurate. Above about 30° elevation the near field and far field results are almost identical. You can also plot the field strength for an azimuth slice, 360° around at a given observation height above the ground. www.qsl.net/ac6la/adhoc/ambcast.gif shows an E-field strength pattern (using Near Field calcs) at a radius of 1000 meters and a height above ground of 2 meters. In this case the antenna model is for a real-world AM broadcast radio station in California and includes four towers, guy wires, and a buried ground screen. (This calculation was done using NEC-4 but you could also use NEC-2 by raising the entire structure slightly above ground.) I believe this type of plot is required as part of the FCC licensing application. I am not a professional engineer (far from it!) but I worked closely with someone who is in order to implement this plotting function in MultiNEC. The MultiNEC program is not freeware but the price is very modest. For more information and a demo download please see www.qsl.net/ac6la/. Dan |
Richard Clark wrote in message . ..
On 31 Jan 2004 07:42:00 -0800, (Maurizio) wrote: However, the antenna that was simulated in the paper I was talking about is a real antenna that has been modellized with a dedicated MOM program and with the correct antenna geomety, and results have been compared with measurements. From this comparison it has been necessary the introduction of such factor. It seems to me that the 6 dB factor had to take into account all losses from the transmitter to the radiated fields. My concern is how this factor can be justified. 6 dB is a lot in terms of antenna usefull coverage distance. Maurizio Hi Maurizio, I am a trained Metrologist with advanced studies in Microwaves. The measure of power (which is intimately tied to any expression of dB) is very difficult to achieve with great accuracy. This means that measurements are always suspect when they purport to confound theory. The logic of the MOM program that works at one wavelength expresses that it will work at all wavelengths. There is no scale determinacy whereby results in HF are corrupted in SHF. There is every potential for human error and measuring power reveals that quicker than any other effort. A 6dB discrepancy is a human problem, and glaringly evident. 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC Hi Richard, I agree that the human factor can be the problem for this discrepancy, however, it would be also very interesting to know about other experiences with such type of measurements, just to narrow the expected uncertainty window. (Better if in presence of complex environments) Maurizio |
|
All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:20 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
RadioBanter.com