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"Walter Maxwell" wrote
... I have explained many times that even though the PA source upstream of the tank circuit is non-linear (and no one's saying it isn't), the energy storage in the tank makes the output of the tank a linear source, no matter what the shape of the current wave form may be at the input. The output of the tank is proved linear because the voltage/current ratio at the output is non-varying and the shape of the voltage and current wave forms are essentially sine waves. Consequently, the output circuit can be represented by a Thevenin source that supports both a conjugate match and the maximum power transfer theorem. ______________ If this statement about the tank circuit being ~ a linear source is valid, does that mean that any load-reflected power that appears across the output terminals of the tx stops at the tank circuit, and never sees the non-linear, non-matching Z of the active PA? And if so, would that also mean that such a tx would not be prone to producing r-f intermodulation components when external signals are fed back into the tx from co-sited r-f systems? Yet experience shows that this is not the case for ~closely spaced interfering signals. The only mitigation for this for a PA with a tank circuit is the rejection of that tank circuit to those off-freq, external signals, and to the resulting IM products generated by mixing with the main tx signal in the active (and non-linear) PA stage of that tx. And the tank has VERY low rejection to load reflections of the signal bandwidth to which it is tuned. Also to be considered are the modern broadband (88-108MHz) FM broadcast transmitters, which have no tank circuits, but except for some designs incorporating balanced 3 dB hybrid combiners are affected by load reflections about the same as a tx with a tuned tank circuit. RF |
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#2
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On Tue, 20 Mar 2007 19:19:26 -0500, "Richard Fry" wrote:
"Walter Maxwell" wrote ... I have explained many times that even though the PA source upstream of the tank circuit is non-linear (and no one's saying it isn't), the energy storage in the tank makes the output of the tank a linear source, no matter what the shape of the current wave form may be at the input. The output of the tank is proved linear because the voltage/current ratio at the output is non-varying and the shape of the voltage and current wave forms are essentially sine waves. Consequently, the output circuit can be represented by a Thevenin source that supports both a conjugate match and the maximum power transfer theorem. ______________ If this statement about the tank circuit being ~ a linear source is valid, does that mean that any load-reflected power that appears across the output terminals of the tx stops at the tank circuit, and never sees the non-linear, non-matching Z of the active PA? Richard, my earlier treatise considers only tube-type PA's with pi-network output coupling circuits used in the Amateur Service, such as the Kenwood TS-830S on which my measurements were made. It was not intended to consider PA's used in the tv service. Sorry, I didn't make this distinction earlier. And if so, would that also mean that such a tx would not be prone to producing r-f intermodulation components when external signals are fed back into the tx from co-sited r-f systems? This issue is irrelevant, because the signals arriving from a co-sited system would not be coherent with the local source signals, while load-reflected signals are coherent. The destructive and constructive interference that occurs at the output of a correctly loaded and tuned PA requires coherence of the source and reflected waves to achieve the total re-reflection of the reflected waves back into the direction toward the load. Yet experience shows that this is not the case for ~closely spaced interfering signals. The only mitigation for this for a PA with a tank circuit is the rejection of that tank circuit to those off-freq, external signals, and to the resulting IM products generated by mixing with the main tx signal in the active (and non-linear) PA stage of that tx. Again, Richard, this condition is irrelevant to the re-reflection of the waves reflected by the load, because the relevant signals are not coherent. And the tank has VERY low rejection to load reflections of the signal bandwidth to which it is tuned. This may be true for PAs with bandwidths wider than those occurring in ham tx. However, the destructive and constructive interference between the reflected and source waves in a correctly loaded and tuned ham tx results in total re-reflection of the reflected waves. Also to be considered are the modern broadband (88-108MHz) FM broadcast transmitters, which have no tank circuits, but except for some designs incorporating balanced 3 dB hybrid combiners are affected by load reflections about the same as a tx with a tuned tank circuit. And still further, Richard, the FM transmitters you refer to above are not in the same category as those used in tube rigs used by hams. Incidentally, Richard, have you really reviewed the report of my TS-830S experiment? Walt |
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#3
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"Walter Maxwell" wrote
(RF): And if so, would that also mean that such a tx would not be prone to producing r-f intermodulation components when external signals are fed back into the tx from co-sited r-f systems? This issue is irrelevant, because the signals arriving from a co-sited system would not be coherent with the local source signals, while load- reflected signals are coherent. The destructive and constructive interference that occurs at the output of a correctly loaded and tuned PA requires coherence of the source and reflected waves to achieve the total re-reflection of the reflected waves back into the direction toward the load. But even for coherent reflections, if the PA tank circuit has very low loss for incident power (which it does), why does it not have ~ equally low loss for load reflections of that power? Such would mean that load reflections would pass through the tank to appear at the output element of the PA, where they can add to its normal power dissipation. Also, does not the result of combining the incident and reflected waves in the tx depend in large part on the r-f phase of the reflection there relative to the r-f phase of the incident wave? And the r-f phase of the reflection is governed mostly by the number of electrical wavelengths of transmission line between the load reflection and the plane of interest/concern -- which is independent of how the tx has been tuned/loaded. If the ham transmitter designs that your paper applies to produce a total re-reflection of reverse power seen at their output tank circuits, then there would be no particular need for "VSWR foldback" circuits to protect them. Yet I believe these circuits are fairly common in ham transmitters, aren't they? They certainly are universal in modern AM/FM/TV broadcast transmitters, and are the result of early field experience where PA tubes, tx output networks, and the transmission line between the tx and the antenna could arc over and/or melt when reflected power was sufficiently high. RF |
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#4
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On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 08:18:14 -0500, "Richard Fry" wrote:
"Walter Maxwell" wrote (RF): And if so, would that also mean that such a tx would not be prone to producing r-f intermodulation components when external signals are fed back into the tx from co-sited r-f systems? This issue is irrelevant, because the signals arriving from a co-sited system would not be coherent with the local source signals, while load- reflected signals are coherent. The destructive and constructive interference that occurs at the output of a correctly loaded and tuned PA requires coherence of the source and reflected waves to achieve the total re-reflection of the reflected waves back into the direction toward the load. But even for coherent reflections, if the PA tank circuit has very low loss for incident power (which it does), why does it not have ~ equally low loss for load reflections of that power? Such would mean that load reflections would pass through the tank to appear at the output element of the PA, where they can add to its normal power dissipation. Also, does not the result of combining the incident and reflected waves in the tx depend in large part on the r-f phase of the reflection there relative to the r-f phase of the incident wave? And the r-f phase of the reflection is governed mostly by the number of electrical wavelengths of transmission line between the load reflection and the plane of interest/concern -- which is independent of how the tx has been tuned/loaded. If the ham transmitter designs that your paper applies to produce a total re-reflection of reverse power seen at their output tank circuits, then there would be no particular need for "VSWR foldback" circuits to protect them. Yet I believe these circuits are fairly common in ham transmitters, aren't they? They certainly are universal in modern AM/FM/TV broadcast transmitters, and are the result of early field experience where PA tubes, tx output networks, and the transmission line between the tx and the antenna could arc over and/or melt when reflected power was sufficiently high. RF Richard, your statement above begs the question, "Are you aware of the phase relationships between forward and reflected voltages and between forward and reflected currrents that accomplish the impedance-matching effect at matching points such as with stub matching and also with antenna tuners? When the matching is accomplished the phase relationship between the foward and reflected voltages can become either 0° or 180°, resulting in a total re-reflection of the voltage. If the resultant voltage is 0°, then the resultant current is 180°, thus voltage sees a virtual open circuit and the current sees a virtual short circuit. The result is that the reflected voltage and current are totally re-reflected IN PHASE with the source voltage and current. This is the reason the forward power in the line is greater than the source power when the line is mismatched at the load, but where the matching device has re-reflected the reflected waves. This phenomenon occurs in all tube transmitters in the ham world when the tank circuit is adjusted for delivering all available power at a given drive level. When this condition occurs the adjustment of the pi-network has caused the relationship between the forward and reflected voltages to be either 0° or 180° and vice versa for currents, as explained above. When this condition occurs, destructive interference between the forward and reflected voltages, as well as between the forward and reflected currents, causes the reflected voltage and current to cancel. However, due to the conservation of energy, the reflected voltage and current cannot just disappear, so the resulting constructive interference following immediately, causes the reflected voltage and current to be reversed in direction, now going in the foward direction along with and in phase with the forward voltage and current. In transmitters with tubes and a pi-network output coupling circuit there is no 'fold back' circuitry to protect the amp, because none is needed, due to the total re-reflection of the reflected power. It is only in solid-state transmitters that have no circuitry to achieve destructive and constructive interference that requires fold back to protect the output transistors. This has been a quick and dirty explanation of the phase relations that accomplish impedance matching. However, I have explained it in much more detail in my book "Reflections--Transmission Lines and Antennas." Yes, I know the book has been sold out and now unavailable, but I have put several chapters on my web page avaliable for downloading. The pertinent chapters covering this issue are Chapters 3, 4, and 23, available at www.w2du.com. I hope that reviewing these chapters will be helpful in clearing up some of the misunderstandings that are clearly evident in some of the postings on this thread. Walt, W2DU |
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#5
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Walter Maxwell wrote:
In transmitters with tubes and a pi-network output coupling circuit there is no 'fold back' circuitry to protect the amp, because none is needed, due to the total re-reflection of the reflected power. It is only in solid-state transmitters that have no circuitry to achieve destructive and constructive interference that requires fold back to protect the output transistors. One can illustrate the destructive and constructive interference with a solid-state transmitter and no tuner. Consider the following example using S-parameter terms. 100W--50 ohm line--+--1/2WL 300 ohm line--50 ohms a1-- --a2 --b1 b2-- Since there is zero reflected power on the 50 ohm line, we know that "total destructive interference" (as described by Hecht in "Optics", 4th edition, page 388) exists toward the source at point '+'. s11 = (300-50)/(300+50) = 0.7143 = -s12 b1 = (s11)(a1) + (s12)(a2) = 0 Note that given a1, s11, and s12, we can calculate the magnitude and phase of a2 needed to make b1=0. That is the Z0-match condition. The conservation of energy principle says that, (in a transmission line with only two directions) "total constructive interference" must exist in the opposite direction to the "total destructive interference" and that they must be of equal magnitudes. That tells us what *must* happen to the energy associated with the a2 reflected wave. All of the energy incident upon point '+' from both directions, |a1|^2 + |a2|^2, is directed toward the load by the interference patterns at the Z0-match point '+'. We hams commonly refer to that condition as being 100% re-reflected. -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
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#6
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Cecil Moore wrote:
All of the energy incident upon point '+' from both directions, |a1|^2 + |a2|^2, is directed toward the load by the interference patterns at the Z0-match point '+'. We hams commonly refer to that condition as being 100% re-reflected. The above is true in the special case of a Z0-match. In general, |a1|^2 + |a2|^2 = |b1|^2 + |b2|^2 and since |b1|^2 = 0, the above expression is correct. *Quoting from HP Ap Note 95-1*: |a1|^2 = Power incident on the input of the network (i.e. Forward power on the 50 ohm line) |a2|^2 = Power reflected from the load (i.e. Reflected power on the 300 ohm line) |b1|^2 = Power reflected from the input port of the network (i.e. Reflected power on the 50 ohm line) |b2|^2 = Power incident on the load (i.e. Forward power on the 300 ohm line) end quote from HP Ap Note 95-1 -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
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#7
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Cecil Moore wrote in
: .... s11 = (300-50)/(300+50) = 0.7143 = -s12 b1 = (s11)(a1) + (s12)(a2) = 0 Cecil, I see you are back to using S parameters to disguise the fact you are using about Vf and Vr in trying to support your "power wave" explanation of what happens on the transmission line. S parameters are ratios of Vf and Vr. Owen |
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#8
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Owen Duffy wrote:
I see you are back to using S parameters to disguise the fact you are using about Vf and Vr in trying to support your "power wave" explanation of what happens on the transmission line. Others use the term "power wave", Owen, but *I DO NOT* so please stop accusing me of something of which I am not guilty. I use the term "EM RF energy wave" for the traveling waves under discussion. When anyone can prove that RF energy waves don't exist or are not associated with EM energy or don't move at the speed of light, I will retire from the argument. Good luck on that one. S parameters are ratios of Vf and Vr. Exactly! No disguise intended - it's just additional support from the well respected field of S-parameter analysis for the distributed network wave reflection model. The only difference is that the S-parameter Vf and Vr values are normalized to Z0 so when they are squared they indeed do yield watts. Your tone seems to reject the S-Parameter analysis as a valid model of reality. Any model that has to resort to rejecting the S-Parameter analysis as well as the distributed network wave reflection model is certainly suspect. Did you ever see the movie, "One Bridge Too Far"? This "reflected wave energy doesn't exist" argument reminds me of that movie. -- 73, Cecil http://www.w5dxp.com |
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#9
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On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 15:55:40 GMT, Walter Maxwell
wrote: On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 08:18:14 -0500, "Richard Fry" wrote: "Walter Maxwell" wrote (RF): And if so, would that also mean that such a tx would not be prone to producing r-f intermodulation components when external signals are fed back into the tx from co-sited r-f systems? This issue is irrelevant, because the signals arriving from a co-sited system would not be coherent with the local source signals, while load- reflected signals are coherent. The destructive and constructive interference that occurs at the output of a correctly loaded and tuned PA requires coherence of the source and reflected waves to achieve the total re-reflection of the reflected waves back into the direction toward the load. Hi Walt, It is not irrelevant, merely illustrative of the concept of reflection that is consistent with a coherent source. Your points of phase are the sine non quo to the discussion, but all too often arguers only take the half of the 360 degrees available to argue a total solution. Even more often, they take only one or two degrees of the 360. But even for coherent reflections, if the PA tank circuit has very low loss for incident power (which it does), why does it not have ~ equally low loss for load reflections of that power? Such would mean that load reflections would pass through the tank to appear at the output element of the PA, where they can add to its normal power dissipation. This is the symmetry of the illustration of external signals. You used external signals yourself as part of your case study; hence the relevance has been made by you. Also, does not the result of combining the incident and reflected waves in the tx depend in large part on the r-f phase of the reflection there relative to the r-f phase of the incident wave? And the r-f phase of the reflection is governed mostly by the number of electrical wavelengths of transmission line between the load reflection and the plane of interest/concern -- which is independent of how the tx has been tuned/loaded. And we return to the sine non quo for the discussion: phase. If the ham transmitter designs that your paper applies to produce a total re-reflection of reverse power seen at their output tank circuits, then there would be no particular need for "VSWR foldback" circuits to protect them. Yet I believe these circuits are fairly common in ham transmitters, aren't they? They certainly are universal in modern AM/FM/TV broadcast transmitters, and are the result of early field experience where PA tubes, tx output networks, and the transmission line between the tx and the antenna could arc over and/or melt when reflected power was sufficiently high. RF Richard, your statement above begs the question, "Are you aware of the phase relationships between forward and reflected voltages and between forward and reflected currrents that accomplish the impedance-matching effect at matching points such as with stub matching and also with antenna tuners? It seems he is on the face of it, doesn't it? Afterall, he is quite explicit to this in the statement you are challenging. When the matching is accomplished the phase relationship between the foward and reflected voltages can become either 0° or 180°, resulting in a total re-reflection of the voltage. If the resultant voltage is 0°, then the resultant current is 180°, thus voltage sees a virtual open circuit and the current sees a virtual short circuit. The result is that the reflected voltage and current are totally re-reflected IN PHASE with the source voltage and current. This is the reason the forward power in the line is greater than the source power when the line is mismatched at the load, but where the matching device has re-reflected the reflected waves. Nothing here contradicts anything either of you have to say. This phenomenon occurs in all tube transmitters in the ham world when the tank circuit is adjusted for delivering all available power at a given drive level. This introduces the two concepts of the "need for match" and the "match obtained." They are related only through an action that spans from one condition to the other. They do not describe the same condition, otherwise no one would ever need to perform the match: When this condition occurs the adjustment of the pi-network has caused the relationship between the forward and reflected voltages to be either 0° or 180° and vice versa for currents, as explained above. When this condition occurs, destructive interference between the forward and reflected voltages, as well as between the forward and reflected currents, causes the reflected voltage and current to cancel. However, due to the conservation of energy, the reflected voltage and current cannot just disappear, so the resulting constructive interference following immediately, causes the reflected voltage and current to be reversed in direction, now going in the foward direction along with and in phase with the forward voltage and current. If a tree were to fall onto the antenna, a new mismatch would occur. Would the transmitter faithfully meet the expectations of the Ham unaware of the accident? No, reflected (0-179 degrees) energy would undoubtedly offer a 50% chance of excitement in the shack. The consequences of dissipation would be quite evident on that occasion. For the other 180 (180-359) degrees of benign combination; then perhaps not. In transmitters with tubes and a pi-network output coupling circuit there is no 'fold back' circuitry to protect the amp, because none is needed, due to the total re-reflection of the reflected power. That would more probably be due to cost averse buying habits of the Amateur community, and the explicit assumption of risk by them to react appropriately in the face of mismatch. Tubes were far more resilient to these incidents than transistors of yore. It is only in solid-state transmitters that have no circuitry to achieve destructive and constructive interference that requires fold back to protect the output transistors. They too have access to the services of a transmatch that is probably more flexible than the tubes' final. If they didn't use a tuner, then the foldback would render many opportunistic antennas as useless. Again, as a cost item, this solution (fold-back) is dirt cheap and was driven by the market economies of a more onerous and costly repair through a lengthy bench time to replace the transistor (which has an exceedingly high probability of a quicker failure for a poor job). 73's Richard Clark, KB7QHC |
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#10
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On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 12:59:20 -0800, Richard Clark wrote:
On Thu, 22 Mar 2007 15:55:40 GMT, Walter Maxwell wrote: On Wed, 21 Mar 2007 08:18:14 -0500, "Richard Fry" wrote: "Walter Maxwell" wrote (RF): And if so, would that also mean that such a tx would not be prone to producing r-f intermodulation components when external signals are fed back into the tx from co-sited r-f systems? This issue is irrelevant, because the signals arriving from a co-sited system would not be coherent with the local source signals, while load- reflected signals are coherent. The destructive and constructive interference that occurs at the output of a correctly loaded and tuned PA requires coherence of the source and reflected waves to achieve the total re-reflection of the reflected waves back into the direction toward the load. Hi Walt, It is not irrelevant, merely illustrative of the concept of reflection that is consistent with a coherent source. Your points of phase are the sine non quo to the discussion, but all too often arguers only take the half of the 360 degrees available to argue a total solution. Even more often, they take only one or two degrees of the 360. Richard, it's been my observation that many of those who argue are clueless concerning the phase relationships required to obtain the destructive and constructive interference that achieves the re-reflection of the reflected waves. A reflection resulting from a discontinuity in the path of a signal delivered by a souce is guaranteed to be coherent with the source wave. If there is no coherence between the reflected wave and the source wave there may be an interference, but none of the type that results in total destructive and constructive interference relevant to impedance matching. I don't understand what you mean by 'taking only one of two degrees of the 360.' But even for coherent reflections, if the PA tank circuit has very low loss for incident power (which it does), why does it not have ~ equally low loss for load reflections of that power? Such would mean that load reflections would pass through the tank to appear at the output element of the PA, where they can add to its normal power dissipation. The paragraph above seems to me to imply that RF doesn't understand the destructive and constructive interference phenomena involved with re-reflection. This is the symmetry of the illustration of external signals. You used external signals yourself as part of your case study; hence the relevance has been made by you. Whoa, Richard! You'll have to point out where I've discussed external signals in any case study involving phase relationships between forward and reflected waves. I've never done so knowingly. Also, does not the result of combining the incident and reflected waves in the tx depend in large part on the r-f phase of the reflection there relative to the r-f phase of the incident wave? And the r-f phase of the reflection is governed mostly by the number of electrical wavelengths of transmission line between the load reflection and the plane of interest/concern -- which is independent of how the tx has been tuned/loaded. And we return to the sine non quo for the discussion: phase. That's true, but although RF apparently realizes that the phase relationship is relevant, he doesn't seem to understand the details of the phase requirements that achieve the necessary interferences that accomplish the impedance matching. If the ham transmitter designs that your paper applies to produce a total re-reflection of reverse power seen at their output tank circuits, then there would be no particular need for "VSWR foldback" circuits to protect them. Yet I believe these circuits are fairly common in ham transmitters, aren't they? They certainly are universal in modern AM/FM/TV broadcast transmitters, and are the result of early field experience where PA tubes, tx output networks, and the transmission line between the tx and the antenna could arc over and/or melt when reflected power was sufficiently high. RF Richard, your statement above begs the question, "Are you aware of the phase relationships between forward and reflected voltages and between forward and reflected currrents that accomplish the impedance-matching effect at matching points such as with stub matching and also with antenna tuners? It seems he is on the face of it, doesn't it? Afterall, he is quite explicit to this in the statement you are challenging. No Richard, I don't believe he is. I don't see the 'explicitness' you seem to find. It's the complete lack of the explicitness that makes me believe he doesn't quite get it. When the matching is accomplished the phase relationship between the foward and reflected voltages can become either 0° or 180°, resulting in a total re-reflection of the voltage. If the resultant voltage is 0°, then the resultant current is 180°, thus voltage sees a virtual open circuit and the current sees a virtual short circuit. The result is that the reflected voltage and current are totally re-reflected IN PHASE with the source voltage and current. This is the reason the forward power in the line is greater than the source power when the line is mismatched at the load, but where the matching device has re-reflected the reflected waves. Nothing here contradicts anything either of you have to say. True, but RF just hasn't said it all, because, as I said above, I don't believe he understands the details of the phase requirements to achieve the match. This phenomenon occurs in all tube transmitters in the ham world when the tank circuit is adjusted for delivering all available power at a given drive level. This introduces the two concepts of the "need for match" and the "match obtained." They are related only through an action that spans from one condition to the other. They do not describe the same condition, otherwise no one would ever need to perform the match: I don't comprehend your statements in the paragraph above. When this condition occurs the adjustment of the pi-network has caused the relationship between the forward and reflected voltages to be either 0° or 180° and vice versa for currents, as explained above. When this condition occurs, destructive interference between the forward and reflected voltages, as well as between the forward and reflected currents, causes the reflected voltage and current to cancel. However, due to the conservation of energy, the reflected voltage and current cannot just disappear, so the resulting constructive interference following immediately, causes the reflected voltage and current to be reversed in direction, now going in the foward direction along with and in phase with the forward voltage and current. If a tree were to fall onto the antenna, a new mismatch would occur. Would the transmitter faithfully meet the expectations of the Ham unaware of the accident? No, reflected (0-179 degrees) energy would undoubtedly offer a 50% chance of excitement in the shack. The consequences of dissipation would be quite evident on that occasion. For the other 180 (180-359) degrees of benign combination; then perhaps not. If a tree were to fall onto the antenna the new mismatch would surely detune the transmitter, causing unwanted dissipation, of course, but only a lid would fail to retune the transmitter before removing the tree. In transmitters with tubes and a pi-network output coupling circuit there is no 'fold back' circuitry to protect the amp, because none is needed, due to the total re-reflection of the reflected power. That would more probably be due to cost averse buying habits of the Amateur community, and the explicit assumption of risk by them to react appropriately in the face of mismatch. Tubes were far more resilient to these incidents than transistors of yore. It is only in solid-state transmitters that have no circuitry to achieve destructive and constructive interference that requires fold back to protect the output transistors. They too have access to the services of a transmatch that is probably more flexible than the tubes' final. If they didn't use a tuner, then the foldback would render many opportunistic antennas as useless. Again, as a cost item, this solution (fold-back) is dirt cheap and was driven by the market economies of a more onerous and costly repair through a lengthy bench time to replace the transistor (which has an exceedingly high probability of a quicker failure for a poor job). IMHO, Richard, the mfgrs of solid-state rigs with no means of matching the output to a load other than 50 ohms short changed the ham, thus requiring him to be satisfied with the power fold back, or buy an antenna tuner. Walt, W2DU |
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